9/11 Conspiracy

[Dave W]

"Civilization, in fact, grows more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. Wars are no longer waged by the will of superior men, capable of judging dispassionately and intelligently the causes behind them and the effects flowing out of them. The are now begun by first throwing a mob into a panic; they are ended only when it has spent its ferine fury."

-- H.L. Mencken, In Defense Of Women (1922)

[dadagoboi]

"Civilization, in fact, grows more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. Wars are no longer waged by the will of superior men, capable of judging dispassionately and intelligently the causes behind them and the effects flowing out of them. The are now begun by first throwing a mob into a panic; they are ended only when it has spent its ferine fury."

-- H.L. Mencken, In Defense Of Women (1922)

Yeah, Baby!

[Pilgrim]

Always interesting stuff here.  A couple of completely unfounded opinions on a couple points.

1.  We are in Afghanistan to protect the nuclear weapons in Pakistan.

2.  Iran was a bad idea all around.

I don't have a strong opinion about #1, but I'm very much in agreement with #2.  I believe it was an example of the US finding or inventing a plausible excuse for going into Iran, and when they dummied one up, we went.

[uwe]

"It's certainly plausible that forces within the government either knew or could have known about the attacks in advance and allowed them to happen, or had a hand in executing the attacks. What I'm sure of is that the official story is false."

I can agree with the above version of your statement and thought it was by now common knowledge even outside conspirationist circles that had all the loose ends (various US government and international agencies had) been tied together, then chances of a 9/11 full prevention or at least of a downsizing of its magnitude would have been very high. Usama didn't come out of nowhere, there had been successful attacks on US facilities outside of the US before, threats had been voiced many times, he was frank about what he wanted to do - it was really only a question of time and logistics. And kidnapping an airplane and crashing it into a seventies skyscraper really isn't rocket science, especially not if you have had some experience with Kamikaze attacks as the US undoubtely has had more than any other country in the world.

[Pilgrim]

I can't buy any of the conspiracy theories that the US government had a hand in conducting the 9/11 attacks.  That makes no sense to me on any level.  

I could believe that there was evidence around 9/11 that could have been gathered and assessed more effectively, but over the long haul, let's face it, a country the size of the US has too many great targets that can be easily compromised.  As Uwe points out, it's not hard to drive an airplane into a building.  There are plenty of power generation sites, dams, public water supplies and other physical resources which can be easily compromised.

I have little doubt that other terrorist actions will happen successfully, because regardless of how much oversight the US has over our lives (due to the inappropriate powers given to "Homeland Security"), you can't catch everything.  Oklahoma City was a pretty nasty example...and it was "one of ours".

[rahock]

We should trust our elected officials and whatever they say without question. After all, they took an oath. The oath that comes to mind is one that I saw in a Little Rascals episode where Spanky was the judge and he was swearing in a witness, "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, or anything but the truth".
I'm pretty sure that's the same one the government uses.
Rick

[Denis]

I don't have a strong opinion about #1, but I'm very much in agreement with #2.  I believe it was an example of the US finding or inventing a plausible excuse for going into Iran, and when they dummied one up, we went.

[uwe]

OMG, did he really say that? 

Only Roanlad Reagan could get away with quips like that because with him you knew he wasn't serious about it.

[exiledarchangel]

The biggest flaw of all conspiracy theories is the fact that they take for granted that world leaders have at least average IQ to think about stuff.
My theory OTOH is that they are clueless, especially when compared with Godzilla.

[Pilgrim]

I think that trust in the government really took its first big hit during the Vietnam war.  It becamse obvious that the public was being lied to in many cases, and the stuff happening in Cambodia when the US denied going into the country was icing on the cake.

I'm sure that at all times in our history, information available to the public has been spun to give political cover and advantage to the government, but it does seem to have reached epic proportions in the past 20 or so years.  Agent Orange, Iran-Contra and the Iraq war come to mind, but then I think about the atomic bomb tests with soldiers standing in the open watching it...and denial that the bomb could have caused any adverse health effects.

I think that government officials and employees often underestimates both the desire that the public has for honest explanations of its actions, and the level of intelligence and thought that the public (aside from the die-hard group that considers any current admin to be the anti-Christ) will bring to bear in considering what government has done.

[Denis]

OMG, did he really say that? 

Only Roanlad Reagan could get away with quips like that because with him you knew he wasn't serious about it.

He did say that and I was appalled when I heard that speech. I knew Saddam didn't have nuclear weapons and I knew he didn't have the capability to make any. I knew Saddam didn't have anything to do with the 9/11 attacks and since he wouldn't allow Al Quaida or Taliban into his country (because he was too much of a dictator) I knew those accusations of associate were nonsense too. Throughout the entire Iraq War I knew all the charges and everything coming out of the administration was BS.

There were just too many things said to justify the invasion that made no sense whatsoever, so when I heard Bush say that it became clear to me it it was all a personal vendetta against Saddam and that is why I think going to Iraq was one of the worst mistakes this country has ever made and this is why I detest Bush and that administration so much.

[lowend1]

The assassination plot against Bush 41 was real, and should have resulted in Saddam and his cohorts being turned into fertilizer in short order. An attempt on any US president's life should be dealt with in that manner. Unfortunately we missed the boat on that one, which IMO set the stage for everything that has followed - people stopped taking us seriously right around that time.

[dadagoboi]

The USA has had major roles in the assassination of legally elected foreign officials (Allende in Chile for one).  Is that OK?

[drbassman]

All governments have done stupid things and lied to their citizens.  I don't buy the theory, however, that our government or officials knew of the imminent attacks.  I do believe some agencies had a clue and some specific knowledge of planning, but the Clinton justice department set up a wall between the FBI and CIA so that frick and frack had no idea what the other knew at a critical time in history.  Just another dumb idea that resulted in the opposite of its intended results.

I also agree that no government should assasinate leaders of other countries.  Let their own citizens knock them off.

[lowend1]

The USA has had major roles in the assassination of legally elected foreign officials (Allende in Chile for one).  Is that OK?

Allende committed suicide. It has been investigated more than once, and his family accepts the determination. Nixon and Kissinger did feel that he was a threat due to his Communist/Socialist leanings, and did try to unseat him, but that's not exactly ordering that he be killed.
Keep in mind that with respect to Saddam Hussein, he tried to have 41 killed because of the Gulf War (a response to his invasion of Kuwait). As far as I'm concerned, if you promote the assassination of a US president, the diplomatic gloves need to come off, and you get one dropped into your lap while you're sitting out by the pool.