Interesting story about explosive growth of hate groups and militias

[drbassman]

Right on Denis.  A lot of college grads feel entitled to jobs with big salaries just because they we able to earn a BS degree in Gender Studies or Communication in 6 years, between the frat parties and keggers.  Fact is, the liberal arts degree of the past is no longer valued by employers as it was 40 years ago.  Professional degrees have replaced good old liberal arts degrees like I pursued in 1968.  It's just a reality we have to live with in this day and age.  We have numerous friends with adult children struggling in the job market several years after college, not just because of the lingering recession, but as a direct result of unmarketable knowledge/skills learned during their college years.  My kids got jobs right out of college at the front end of the recession (my daughter 5 years ago with an Ag-business degree) and 2 years ago in the heart of the recession (my son in mechanical engineering). Marketable skills are key now.

By the way, I was the first to go to college on both sides of my family for generations.  It was all my parents' doing, not society, culture or government programs.  God bless their vision.

[Pilgrim]

Last year I actually heard a politician say "Who are we fooling? Not EVERYONE needs to go to college or is college material." I was surprised and please someone actually had the balls to say it. I agree 100% with him, and like you, know lots of people who didn't go to college but have great jobs and are doing well. They also showed up and worked their asses off to get this far.

This is true, and even though I'm in the higher ed "bidness", I fully realize that we need people in a whole range of service and support industries.  Things like auto and diesel mechanics, HVAC, various aspects of construction, landscaping and manufacturing.  In fact, it seems to me that fewer and fewer people do their own home repair, auto maintenance, you name it...meaning that jobs will be available in those areas. Someone needs to fill the gap, and there will be many opportunities.

But..........speaking personally and selfishly.........

That said, when it comes to my daughters, I have a different level of responsibility. My job is to help them do the BEST and position them the BEST I can to have successful careers and fulfilling lives.  Regardless of what's "OK" for anyone else, I want to do everything I can to set them up for maximum success in life.  In both cases, that meant college and preparation for careers with good professional salaries and with a background that gives them a path for professional advancement.  They have done great with that approach.  It's possible that my younger daughter may decide to open a bakery or go into restaurant management, but she'll have a certification as a Registered Dietician, so she will have many more career options than if she had taken a trade school path.

And I'm glad they're doing well!

[Nocturnal]

I'm the same way with my daughter Pilgrim. We always stressed education and a good work ethic. I just want her to have the absolute best chance for success in her life/career that she could possibly have. I don't care what field she eventually lands in, I just want her to succeed.

[drbassman]

This is true, and even though I'm in the higher ed "bidness", I fully realize that we need people in a whole range of service and support industries.  Things like auto and diesel mechanics, HVAC, various aspects of construction, landscaping and manufacturing.  In fact, it seems to me that fewer and fewer people do their own home repair, auto maintenance, you name it...meaning that jobs will be available in those areas. Someone needs to fill the gap, and there will be many opportunities.

But..........speaking personally and selfishly.........

That said, when it comes to my daughters, I have a different level of responsibility. My job is to help them do the BEST and position them the BEST I can to have successful careers and fulfilling lives.  Regardless of what's "OK" for anyone else, I want to do everything I can to set them up for maximum success in life.  In both cases, that meant college and preparation for careers with good professional salaries and with a background that gives them a path for professional advancement.  They have done great with that approach.  It's possible that my younger daughter may decide to open a bakery or go into restaurant management, but she'll have a certification as a Registered Dietician, so she will have many more career options than if she had taken a trade school path.

And I'm glad they're doing well!

I agree with your approach Al.  The problem with many of us parents is being realistic about our kids' abilities.  Again, not every kid is cut out for college and colleges, as you know, are not very good at helping those who do not belong there find their niche outside of academia.  Also, it is hard to be honest with ourselves about our own kids' academic prowess.  Just about everyone I know thinks their kids are direct intellectual descendents of Albert Einstein!   

[drbassman]

Addendum:  I wasn't suggesting we not push our children to accel academically or give them the opportunities.  I am saying that if my kids had expressed a rational reason for going into the trades or striking out into the working word without a college degree, I would have been as supportive of that choice as I was their decision to apply to college.  I might have been quietly disappointed beause that what happens sometimes to parents who only want the best for their kids (based on what WE THINK is best), but proud none the less they made a decision on their own to pursue their dream, not necessarily mine.

We raised our children to be independent, and as such, they were the only ones in our circle of friends who went to college out of state and sought the best possible jobs they could find, even though it means they live in VA and Kansas.  We wish they lived down the street like most of our friends' kids do, but they are happy and fulfilled by their choices and so are we.  We gave them wings to fly and they used them.  We are fulfilled through their dreams, not always our own.

[Dave W]

Not sure what you're saying Dave.  The Peter Principle is "too many management level employees who reached their level of incompetence were then kicked even higher up,"  not reassigned to something they can handle.  Reassignment would be a refreashing change of pace!!!

As I remember it -- and it's been 40 years since I read the book -- the Peter Principle was that an employee rises to the level of his incompetence and stays there (as always, I could be wrong about that). In my experience, too many of those employees are kicked further upstairs to prevent more damage, which usually backfires.

Right on Denis.  A lot of college grads feel entitled to jobs with big salaries just because they we able to earn a BS degree in Gender Studies or Communication in 6 years, between the frat parties and keggers.  Fact is, the liberal arts degree of the past is no longer valued by employers as it was 40 years ago.  ....

This reminds me of Joe Therrien, the guy who was profiled in a story in The Nation about Occupy Wall Street and then widely ridiculed across the net. He gave up a full time job as a public school drama teacher in NYC in order to get a master's degree in... wait for it... puppetry! And since he couldn't find work as a Master of Puppets  he wound up having to take a part time job at his old school at half the pay, while he now has big student loans to pay off. And of course, it's society's fault. Now, there are some in the Occupy movement with legitimate complaints, but this guy isn't one of them.

[drbassman]

As I remember it -- and it's been 40 years since I read the book -- the Peter Principle was that an employee rises to the level of his incompetence and stays there (as always, I could be wrong about that). In my experience, too many of those employees are kicked further upstairs to prevent more damage, which usually backfires.

This reminds me of Joe Therrien, the guy who was profiled in a story in The Nation about Occupy Wall Street and then widely ridiculed across the net. He gave up a full time job as a public school drama teacher in NYC in order to get a master's degree in... wait for it... puppetry! And since he couldn't find work as a Master of Puppets  he wound up having to take a part time job at his old school at half the pay, while he now has big student loans to pay off. And of course, it's society's fault. Now, there are some in the Occupy movement with legitimate complaints, but this guy isn't one of them.

I could be wrong.  Don't remember a ceiling on incompetence in the book!  I thought the sky was the limit.  Now I gotta find a copy and get up to speed.

Seriously, puppetry?  Why doesn't he look for a job in Washington, DC?

[Pilgrim]

Addendum:  I wasn't suggesting we not push our children to accel academically or give them the opportunities.  I am saying that if my kids had expressed a rational reason for going into the trades or striking out into the working word without a college degree, I would have been as supportive of that choice as I was their decision to apply to college.  I might have been quietly disappointed beause that what happens sometimes to parents who only want the best for their kids (based on what WE THINK is best), but proud none the less they made a decision on their own to pursue their dream, not necessarily mine.

Well said, Bill. I believe I would have reacted the same way.  I suspect that in both our cases, the parents' expectations had a lot to do with the kids' decisions about which path to travel. After all, we had 18 years to indoctrinate them before they finished high school.

[drbassman]

Just to circle back to the original militias topic, Eric Holder's Department of Social Justice got a big kick in the ass yesterday.  The 1st. amendment still means something.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/key-charges-dismissed-against-michigan-militia-members-charged-with-plotting-war-on-government/2012/03/27/gIQAfUYVeS_story.html?hpid=z4

[nofi]

if the government wants to hear anti gov. speech all they need to do is knock on a couple of doors. frankly, homeboy security bothers me more than any bumkin 'militia' they may dig up. those folks have the go ahead for who knows what government sanctioned witch hunt.

[dadagoboi]

Anyone remember a guy named Timothy McVeigh?

[drbassman]

Anyone remember a guy named Timothy McVeigh?

Not the same at all.  Free speech is free speech.  Murdering people is another issue entirely.  The case here was bogus and overblown.

[dadagoboi]

Not the same at all.  Free speech is free speech.  Murdering people is another issue entirely.  The case here was bogus and overblown.

So in this case the system worked.  Had McVeigh been under surveillance he possibly would not have gone as far as he did.

Many cases being brought against other groups are overblown and bogus with a large amount of government help to get to the point where charges are brought.  I can't get excited about a group that is so heavily armed and organized being brought to trial.  What exactly ARE they training for? 

[drbassman]

I guess I'll have to trust law enforcement to actually discern criminal intent in any individual or groups they might be monitoring.  Just arming one's self and forming a group and speaking against intrusive big government still is protected by the constitution.  How many militias have actually attacked anyone or attempted to overthrow the government?  Anecdotes like McVeigh aren't sufficient to kick the Constitution entirely to the curb.  

I'm not interested in debating analogies in other cases where the circumstances aren't even close to equivalent.  I just was pointing out that the current Department of Social Justice is more interested in over-reaching its authority where dangerous militias are concerned, but can't seem to waste its time on securing our borders, voter intimidation at poles and private groups putting monetary bounties on the heads of private citizens.  It's their focus the I object to and it's wrong for the country IMHO.

[dadagoboi]

Bill, I looked at the MM's webpage, lots of guns (11 out of 12 pictures on the website had guns, most with more than 1).  If they were looking to scare me, they did.

"Welcome to MichiganMilitia.com, which is a web page dedicated to promoting the training, development, and growth of a well-armed body of citizenry that is capable of defending our Constitution and  the American way of life."

Education is not mentioned, only training...and something called "311 MILITIApocalypse, The Day America Will Change Forever", 7 guys with guns in that one.

I agree with a lot of what you say about the constitution being subverted.  I also believe the First Amendment trumps the Second.  There's a history of groups with guns and training and military like organization causing problems that's hard to deny IMO.