Interesting story about explosive growth of hate groups and militias

[drbassman]

Well said good doctors!

The public school teacher now is forced to do the job of the parent as well as try to teach.  Children come to class ill prepared and show an utter lack of respect for authority - they talk back and do not mind for their parents so why should it be any different for the teacher?  These constant disruptions in class limit the education of the kids that do want to learn.  Couple this to the fact that in Texas, and most other states, the school district spends almost twelve years drilling the kids to take, and pass, the standardized test to the point that real education is put on the back burner because high test scores are tied to additonal funding.  The kids are taught to take the damn test and little else.
 

More great points regarding teaching to tests, disrespect and discipline issues.  You should see the hours of state and federal paperwork my wife does for the elementary kids she sees instead of actually teaching them!!!  And don't ever tell a parent their kid is misbehaving.  Parents now are more likely to tell the teacher to shove it then try to assist and facilitate a better learning environment for their kid.  The variables just keep coming at us, it's hard to comprehend!  Maybe we should stop, it's depressing.

[Pilgrim]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kallikak_Family

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jukes_family

Interesting - I had not heard of this.  The article notes that alcoholism, malnutrition and poverty go together. I would also note that whenever behavior appears to travel through generations of a family, their own family habits, socialization and practices probably have a lot to do with that behavior.

Yes, this is a very big topic - Bill, I understand why you limited your remarks.  

And I strongly agree that society has off-loaded a number of agendas onto school teachers that they should not have to deal with.  I have great respect for K-12 teachers who have to deal with all that stuff.

[Lightyear]

Great points and my hat is off for anyone that chooses to teach in todays K-12 setting.  Most of these folks should get hazardous duty pay

My daughter had several fantastic teachers thoughout her public school years that went over an above to help her and she remembers them quite fondly.  She has always had a great love of history an will graduate this May, with a boat load of honors, from the University of Houston with her bachelors in history.  She starts on her masters in library science this August.  Many assumed that she would teach since her undergrad will be in history - her reply has been that she has seen just how poorly teachers are treated, and paid, that she has no desire to be abused for 40 years.  It's very sad because she would most certainly make one of those great teachers who helped her out so much.

[Dave W]

Whatever you can say about public education, the overall outcomes are a reflection of what we value. You can get an excellent education in the public schools if that's what you want. OTOH when students and their parents don't really value education, then all the extra money spent, smaller class sizes etc. won't produce better results.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

You can get an excellent education in the public schools if that's what you want.

If by that, you mean that a valued education will be a better one, then yes, but if you mean that an excellent public education is a current possibility nationwide, I'm afraid I completely disagree.

[drbassman]

If by that, you mean that a valued education will be a better one, then yes, but if you mean that an excellent public education is a current possibility nationwide, I'm afraid I completely disagree.

I too disagree with that one comment of Dave's.  Even with extra effort, getting an excellent education in many public schools just isn't possible.  Some systems are so dysfunctional no amount of effort on parents' and kids' part can't fix that.  We have numerous examples in our county.

Our local public school is not the best in the county by a long shot.  Our kids did well because we worked with them routinely at home, filling in the gaps, challenging incompetent teachers, supporting competent teachers and instilling a love of learning in our kids.  My favorite example of poor teaching was my son correcting his high school english teacher when she marked grammar "mistakes" on a paper which were actually correct.  And then there was the algebra teacher who never lectured or taught, but let the kids teach themselves with worksheets.  Or the history teacher who taught minimally and showed videos almost daily.  Unbelievable some of the stuff we experienced.

The symbiotic relationship among all of these variables that Al mentioned before is critical to success.  Our parents did it and we repeated it.  That made an average school system work for us and got our kids into good universities and solid careers afterwards.

[Dave W]

I didn't mean it was possible in every school and school district, that's never been the case. Way back when I was in school, there was no shortage of teachers who should never have been allowed in the classroom. And it's certainly worse now than it used to be. But it's always been possible to come through the public schools with a good education. You need the right circumstances, including having your parents aware and involved when necessary.

My point, which I guess I didn't make too well, was that a good part of society does not value education enough. If people who use the system don't demand competence, then you have to look hard to find it. All the money in the world will not give your kid a good education if knowledge isn't valued in your home, or if it isn't, your child learns on his own to value it. Hope that makes more sense.

[drbassman]

I didn't mean it was possible in every school and school district, that's never been the case. Way back when I was in school, there was no shortage of teachers who should never have been allowed in the classroom. And it's certainly worse now than it used to be. But it's always been possible to come through the public schools with a good education. You need the right circumstances, including having your parents aware and involved when necessary.

My point, which I guess I didn't make too well, was that a good part of society does not value education enough. If people who use the system don't demand competence, then you have to look hard to find it. All the money in the world will not give your kid a good education if knowledge isn't valued in your home, or if it isn't, your child learns on his own to value it. Hope that makes more sense.

Good explanation Dave, I can agree with you!  Now, just to make it intersting, I believe we have a large segment of our society that values what we can get out of an education, especially a college education, but fail to set their kids up for success. 

Also, we, as a culture, have become brainwashed that every kid should go to college because we have devalued and denegrated the trades and hard work.  Just listen to the politicians trying to sell us on a free college education for everyone.  Not everyone should go to college for pete's sake!  The entire baloney about "jobs Americans wont' do" has seeped into our society to such an extent, that starting in retail or food service and working one's way up the ladder is sneered at today.  If you don't work in an office, you're a loser.  I have 3 half-brothers and a sister who never went to college and they are doing very well in their choosen occupations.  And, they are happy with their choices. 

Sorry for this rant, but I have had to teach so many kids who come to my classroom unprepared and often unable to do college level work.  They don't even know why they are there except that their parents insisted they go to college.  It's very unfair to them.  Some we can save and help them succeed, others sadly fail and leave college confused and deflated.  Not a pretty sight.

[Pilgrim]

My point, which I guess I didn't make too well, was that a good part of society does not value education enough. If people who use the system don't demand competence, then you have to look hard to find it. All the money in the world will not give your kid a good education if knowledge isn't valued in your home, or if it isn't, your child learns on his own to value it. Hope that makes more sense.

I can agree with that!

One recent study I saw indicated that a major predictor of a child's success in education (and subsequent entry into professional careers) was the educational background of their parents.  Simply put, if your parents went to college, you are much more likely to go to college and succeed. 

This is kind of a "duh" finding for me, but consider the other side of that coin: if your parents didn't go to college, you are less likely to go, and if you go, less likely to succeed.

In other words, the haves get more, and the don't haves get less...and it tends to be self-perpetuating. And I think Dave's comment - and many of the earlier comments - relate directly to this.  Your FAMILY setting has a huge impact on your prospects and academic success.  Further, the community you live in has a big impact on that success...if it's supportive, your prospects are better.

Again, this is "duh" territory, but it also means that kids from low-income areas with less educated parents, crime and gang problems have multiple strikes against them from the very start.  It takes a strong person to succeed in the face of those cumulative negative factors. 

And THEN - we ask the K-12 system to overcome all these negatives and carry out a number of social agendas.  Not gonna happen in any widespread sense.

[Nocturnal]

Also, we, as a culture, have become brainwashed that every kid should go to college because we have devalued and denegrated the trades and hard work.  Just listen to the politicians trying to sell us on a free college education for everyone.  Not everyone should go to college for pete's sake!  The entire baloney about "jobs Americans wont' do" has seeped into our society to such an extent, that starting in retail or food service and working one's way up the ladder is sneered at today.  If you don't work in an office, you're a loser.  I have 3 half-brothers and a sister who never went to college and they are doing very well in their choosen occupations.  And, they are happy with their choices. 

Great point! College is good for some people, but trade schools are better for others. I too know many people that have done very well for themselves without college. But those people actually showed up and worked to get where they are today. That whole "solid work ethic" thing doesn't seem to be taught to kids much these days.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

Also, we, as a culture, have become brainwashed that every kid should go to college because we have devalued and denegrated the trades and hard work.  Just listen to the politicians trying to sell us on a free college education for everyone.  Not everyone should go to college for pete's sake!

Absolutely, but I don't think trades have been directly denegrated, just presented as a somehow less attractive alternative. Ironically, my peers that didn't go to college that still have factory jobs make much more money than I do. Their jobs are far more scarce nowadays, but I'm stuck in an entry-level position with two degrees and over 15 years professional experience. Times are tough all over.

The entire baloney about "jobs Americans wont' do" has seeped into our society to such an extent, that starting in retail or food service and working one's way up the ladder is sneered at today.

It's not sneered at; it's an impossibility in today's job market. There is no ladder to work up. A large segment of professional employers require lower-level workers that are highly skilled and then keep them where they are, not letting them advance because they are good at what they do and promote only toadies and incompetents who do not threaten the security of upper management's jobs. I have worked in retail AND food service full time; that's where the professional sector got the idea.

[drbassman]

I agree Psycho, but there are a myriad of things that have happened.  We priced ourselves out of the market with factory pay and benefits that eventually made us non-competitive internationally.  The corporate tax rate in the US is higher than other industrialized countries.  Free trade agreements are a farce as we are the only ones actually playing by the rules.  The list goes on and on.

Well, I don't know about every industry segment, but I do know health care.  While there has been some flattening of the organizational structures, there are still lots of opportunities to work you way up.  I'm past president of the board of a nursing home and we have an education fund for our staff.  It's not much, but it's a start.  One of them, who was willing to put the time and effort into it, took advantage of that small benefit.  She went from working as an aide with 6 months training and pursued her 2 year nursing degree the local community college. After she achieved that, she went to school part-time while working full-time to earn her BS in Nursing.  After of of that effort, she is now a nursing supervisor in the nursing home. 

Hard work and determination will almost always pay off.  I admit that my own college has numerous high-level administrators who were promoted via the "Peter Principle."  That will always happen and there's not much we can do about it.  On the other hand,  I have 5 staff people working for me who went to school part-time and have been promoted internally within the last 9 years.  I won't be convinced there is no way to move up if you want it bad enough.  It might mean changing industries or jobs, but there are still opportunities out there.  To suggest that the current lingering recession is the new normal flies in the face of economic experience in our country.  There is a light at the end of the tunnel and we can rebuild our economy.  Our current efforts have been dismal failures. 

[Dave W]

Oh yeah, the Peter Principle. I always thought the bigger problem was that too many management level employees who reached their level of incompetence were then kicked even higher up instead of reassigned to something they could do well.

[Denis]

Great point! College is good for some people, but trade schools are better for others. I too know many people that have done very well for themselves without college. But those people actually showed up and worked to get where they are today. That whole "solid work ethic" thing doesn't seem to be taught to kids much these days.

Last year I actually heard a politician say "Who are we fooling? Not EVERYONE needs to go to college or is college material." I was surprised and please someone actually had the balls to say it. I agree 100% with him, and like you, know lots of people who didn't go to college but have great jobs and are doing well. They also showed up and worked their asses off to get this far.

Too many of today's kids seem to think they are "owed" futures when in reality, you usually have to earn it.

[drbassman]

Oh yeah, the Peter Principle. I always thought the bigger problem was that too many management level employees who reached their level of incompetence were then kicked even higher up instead of reassigned to something they could do well.

Not sure what you're saying Dave.  The Peter Principle is "too many management level employees who reached their level of incompetence were then kicked even higher up,"  not reassigned to something they can handle.  Reassignment would be a refreashing change of pace!!!