The World's 25 Highest-Paid Musicians

[TBird1958]

'the u.s occupation of germany was not kind.' nor should it have been. jeez....

As victors the U.S. didn't treat the vanquished (many innocent civilians - including my grandfather) much better than the Nazis, deliberate starvation, no water, shelter, clothing were all present in  U.S. D.E.F. camps postwar.     

[dadagoboi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_%281944%E2%80%931950%29

[TBird1958]

And as always, I marvel at our ability to digress............. 

[gweimer]

And as always, I marvel at our ability to digress............. 

Six degrees of separation from WWII.   

[uwe]

Let's not get carried away. True, standards in US POW camps dropped after Germany had lost the war, for reasons of convenience (no US POW counterparts whose living conditions would reciprocally decrease) and the (rightful) fury of the Allies about horrors of the concentration camps. True that US POWs were, by and large, treated best (along with English POWs) in German camps. True that immediately after the war, the US Army wasn't logistically great in taking care of the millions of German POWs it all of the sudden had. It took the easy way out and let them go after six months or earlier (unless they were shipped to France or England which were in need of labor force). True that after the war German POWs in French camps (especially former SS men) were incentivized to either join the French Foreign Legion or ruin their health in French lead and coal mines. True that my grandfather had very little to eat in the Russian POW camp in Siberia where he stayed until 1949, but "neither had my captors" and he was always quick to add that "I was never hit by a Russian in all those years and the Russian women would slip us warm potatoes when we were cutting wood in the forest".

But no one and certainly no German in his right mind will say that US treatment of German prisoners of war or the population was wilfully mean on any meaningful scale and for any longer duration, much less genocidal and even in its excesses ever approaching Nazi crimes. The worst thing one can say about US occupation is that it initially fumbled at what to do (as Churchill once put it so well: "Trust the US to always do the right thing in the end - after having exhausted all other available options of course!"). But after the harsh hunger winter of 1946/47, the US saw to it, and not just with C.A.R.E., that the German population in its occupation zone was properly fed. Ask any older German about his memories from that time, US soup kitchens have not been forgotten. My mom's first confrontation with US candy (and a black person) was when a black tank commander chucked sweets at her from a Sherman turret. Of course she refused to take them (having been fed with all the propaganda how it might be poisoned) leading the offended tank commander to curse her as some "goddamn Nazi"! She forever regretted not taking it (and her two sisters admonished her severely for her stupidity when she came home to tell the tale).  

Let's face it: Germany's war and genocidal crimes were such that, in 1945, shooting close to half the German population would have maybe not been just, but understandable as an act of blind revenge/rage. That did not happen. Neither did the Morgenthau plan of deindustrializing Germany and turning it into an agricultural country happen. The Ruhrgebiet (coal and iron!) and the Saarland (ditto!) did not go to France. Of all the occupation zones, the US one hat the least dismantling of industrial plants and was the first one offering economic freedom. To this day, the wealthiest German Bundesländer  are Bavaria (Munich), Hesse (Frankfurt) and Baden-Würtemberg (Stuttgart), all three of them were US occupation zone (and had by no means been wealthy regions before the war). They had a headstart that hasn't been caught up with 66 years after the end of WW II. To this day they transfer parts of their surplus to other German Länder under the Länderfinanzausgleich.

Not even the mass rapes in Eastern Germany (US soldiers had no need to rape, they had clean-shaven, well-fed good looks, nylons, coffee and chocolate!) compare with anything that happened in the East under German control. Rape is horrible, yes, but it's not gassing families after freight training them through Europe without food and water. It's a miracle that the Russian and Poles ever spoke to us again after what we had done to their people and countries. I'm always good for some non-PC WW II cracks here, but how lucky Germany actually was after the war (and how West- and East-European nations reached out a hand to us again after all the Nazi horrors) is always in the back of my mind.

[dadagoboi]

Great post, Uwe.  Thanks!

[Denis]

You forgot "Huns"! And "Jerry" though that is very Brit. "Fritz" is WW I (as "Friedrich" was a popular German name then), "Kraut" is self-explanatory though it's mostly a Southern German dish, Jerry is a play on "JGerman" I believe and "Hun" is self-inflicted because when the German Expeditionary Force was sent to China during the Boxer Revolt, the Kaiser told them to "act like the Huns" (China's archenemy over centuries) there, it came to haunt him. I sometimes think that "Huns" is probably additionally also a play on words for "Hans", another popular German first name in earlier decades.

"Boche" is another one, used by the French.

Where did "wops" come from btw? All the other ethnic slurs for Italians you listed are pretty much self-explanatory (and not that vicious IMHO).

I'm surprised no one has mentioned "heiney"!

[Denis]

From everything I've read about POW camps in the south east US, the treatment of the German and Italian prisoners were pretty good. Hell, some of the statements I've read by both guards, the POWs and the population said that the POWs were often dropped off at tobacco and cotton fields to do the harvesting and were often lightly guarded or not guarded at all, then waited patiently to be picked up by the guards at the end of the day. The farmers whose fields the POWs worked in often said they were well-behaved, grateful and polite.

[uwe]

The US POW camps were top-notch during the war and the quality of camp life there even played a role in how Germany treated US POWs, quite a few of them even sent food that had become rare in the Reich like chocolate to their relatives in Germany. Food was such that there was even negative local press about "spoiling the Nazis" (at this point mostly Afrika Corps and U Boat men). The fact that deaths in the camp (for natural causes) saw the use of the swastika flag at military ceremony burials with US soldier guards shooting their rifles in the air was perhaps a bit too much though! There were hardly any escapes even though neither the camps nor the POWs during work were heavily guarded. Most inmates volunteered for work to combat the boredom and "see something of the US (other than the camp grounds) while we are here". For many inmates it was their first lesson of democracy. (Helmut Schmidt, later a German chancellor and best friend of Henry Kissinger to this day, always stressed that his first experience "that democracy works" was in an Allied POW camp.) Or as one arrogant Afrika Corps man said to a US camp commander. "Your treatment of us here will be one of the few points in your favor after vee haff won ze war!"

[TBird1958]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned "heiney"!

Mine's nice 

[Dave W]

I figured Heinie may have been short for the first name Heinrich and just evolved into a general term for Germans.

[Highlander]

WWI slang...

[dadagoboi]

Probably predates The Great War to the Franco Prussian War.

[godofthunder]

Let's not get carried away. True, standards in US POW camps dropped after Germany had lost the war, for reasons of convenience (no US POW counterparts whose living conditions would reciprocally decrease) and the (rightful) fury of the Allies about horrors of the concentration camps. True that US POWs were, by and large, treated best (along with English POWs) in German camps. True that immediately after the war, the US Army wasn't logistically great in taking care of the millions of German POWs it all of the sudden had. It took the easy way out and let them go after six months or earlier (unless they were shipped to France or England which were in need of labor force). True that after the war German POWs in French camps (especially former SS men) were incentivized to either join the French Foreign Legion or ruin their health in French lead and coal mines. True that my grandfather had very little to eat in the Russian POW camp in Siberia where he stayed until 1949, but "neither had my captors" and he was always quick to add that "I was never hit by a Russian in all those years and the Russian women would slip us warm potatoes when we were cutting wood in the forest".

But no one and certainly no German in his right mind will say that US treatment of German prisoners of war or the population was wilfully mean on any meaningful scale and for any longer duration, much less genocidal and even in its excesses ever approaching Nazi crimes. The worst thing one can say about US occupation is that it initially fumbled at what to do (as Churchill once put it so well: "Trust the US to always do the right thing in the end - after having exhausted all other available options of course!"). But after the harsh hunger winter of 1946/47, the US saw to it, and not just with C.A.R.E., that the German population in its occupation zone was properly fed. Ask any older German about his memories from that time, US soup kitchens have not been forgotten. My mom's first confrontation with US candy (and a black person) was when a black tank commander chucked sweets at her from a Sherman turret. Of course she refused to take them (having been fed with all the propaganda how it might be poisoned) leading the offended tank commander to curse her as some "goddamn Nazi"! She forever regretted not taking it (and her two sisters admonished her severely for her stupidity when she came home to tell the tale).  

Let's face it: Germany's war and genocidal crimes were such that, in 1945, shooting close to half the German population would have maybe not been just, but understandable as an act of blind revenge/rage. That did not happen. Neither did the Morgenthau plan of deindustrializing Germany and turning it into an agricultural country happen. The Ruhrgebiet (coal and iron!) and the Saarland (ditto!) did not go to France. Of all the occupation zones, the US one hat the least dismantling of industrial plants and was the first one offering economic freedom. To this day, the wealthiest German Bundesländer  are Bavaria (Munich), Hesse (Frankfurt) and Baden-Würtemberg (Stuttgart), all three of them were US occupation zone (and had by no means been wealthy regions before the war). They had a headstart that hasn't been caught up with 66 years after the end of WW II. To this day they transfer parts of their surplus to other German Länder under the Länderfinanzausgleich.

Not even the mass rapes in Eastern Germany (US soldiers had no need to rape, they had clean-shaven, well-fed good looks, nylons, coffee and chocolate!) compare with anything that happened in the East under German control. Rape is horrible, yes, but it's not gassing families after freight training them through Europe without food and water. It's a miracle that the Russian and Poles ever spoke to us again after what we had done to their people and countries. I'm always good for some non-PC WW II cracks here, but how lucky Germany actually was after the war (and how West- and East-European nations reached out a hand to us again after all the Nazi horrors) is always in the back of my mind.

Well stated Uwe. I wish I had the command of our language that you posses. My Grandfather Judson H.  Scott was a officer ( maybe even commadant I don't remember) of a POW camp on Long Island, Camp Upton , Yaphank, Suffolk County, NY , I have vauge memories of the talk of those days. I do know that the POWs made many items and gave them as gifts to the officers. I also remember my grandfather telling me they we greatful for the treatment they were given.

[Freuds_Cat]

Most famous event regarding WWII POW's in Australia was probably the Cowra breakout. Wiki does as good a job as any in outlining the story but the short story is that the Japanese POW's regarded capture and internment as shameful and decided to regain their honour by making a breakout of the Cowra POW camp.

Wiki:
359 POWs escaped. Some prisoners, rather than escaping, attempted or committed suicide, or were killed by their countrymen. Some of those who did escape committed suicide, or were killed, to avoid recapture. All those still alive were recaptured within 10 days of the breakout.
During the breakout and subsequent rounding up of POWs, four Australian soldiers and 231 Japanese soldiers died and 108 prisoners were wounded. The leaders of the breakout commanded their escapees not to attack Australian civilians, and none were killed or injured.

2 of the four Australian soldiers died thus. (more Wiki):
Within minutes of the start of the breakout attempt Privates Benjamin Gower Hardy and Ralph Jones (GC) manned the No. 2 Vickers machine-gun and were firing into the first wave of escapees, but they were soon overwhelmed by the sheer weight of numbers and killed. However, Private Jones managed to remove and conceal the gun's bolt prior to his death. This rendered the gun useless, thereby preventing the prisoners from turning it against the guards.

Cowra POW camp


From all reports the treatment of the Japanese POW's was humane and civil.