Michael Wittmann: WAFFEN SS "Tanks" 5/5

Freuds_Cat · March 11, 2011, 07:36:46 PM

Found this very interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFbPMbmW96I&feature=related

rahock · March 12, 2011, 06:34:03 AM

In wartime the accomplishments of heros are often inflated for propaganda purposes, and that bit of exageration helps to put things in perspective for the civilian public, who likely has no idea the true horrors of war. None the less, they are true heros, as were so many who received no recognition at all. In that war there was certainly no shortage of heros on both sides. It's such a pity that reaching hero status is so often associated with killing other people, who were also heros.
It would be nice to recognize as many heroic efforts for humanitarian deeds, and I think the heros of war would be the first to agree with that.
Rick

Freuds_Cat · March 12, 2011, 07:19:09 AM

Yeah I'm with you there Rick. I just found it interesting to see both sides of a story, especially a war story. I guess there are parallels here with the story of the Red Baron.

rahock · March 12, 2011, 08:33:55 AM

It was a great story. I'm kind of a war/history nut, so I eat this stuff up.
I have a few friends whose fathers fought for Germany and Japan in WWII including a U Boat captain and a Zero pilot. On the rare occassions I could ever get them to talk briefly about the war, it was pretty intense.
Rick

Highlander · March 12, 2011, 10:37:06 AM

I can understand "nuts" Rick...

I've been dragged (a recommendation) onto the WWIItalk site due to my research - now presently at three Chindits that I'm in direct communication with - all fought at "Blackpool" (Burma), 2 in the same regiment as my dad, 1 in the same Battalion (sending info - thinks he may have known my father!)

"Blackpool" is eating my time and resources - of over 3000 men that went in with the 111th Indian Division less than 200 remained fit to fight on - finding any of them willing to talk is pure gold...

I am scheduled to meet up with one of them - a Major who served with the Gurkhas there in the coming weeks - he has one book published and a significant amount of material he is willing to share on the subject - he is 91 and not in the best of health - I spoke with his wife at length earlier in the week - one of the ex British Raj - her father was the only Westerner to have worked with Ghandi on his peace council; she met him as a young woman - she is on her 3rd book on the subject...

ah... off thread... (Excitable boy, they all said...)

rahock · March 13, 2011, 05:28:02 AM

Kenny, it sounds like you're in for one helluva history lesson

Rick

Highlander · March 13, 2011, 06:11:00 PM

Exponential curve...

My book was at 300 pages up until recently...

Minutiae... A Bosnian researcher has sent me a citation that has confirmed something I having long suspected about the naming of the site "Blackpool", another has provided me with a citation referencing my dad's Platoon (no 13, 90 Column, 1st Cameronians) and giving me the name of his commanding officer, I've spent most of today downloading citation pdf's; I visited our National Archives recently and had access to the Battalion diaries - took over 500 pictures, two pages to a picture, mostly - the diary goes down to minutes, not days... I have to pay another trip to access the Burma MIA register (dad referenced that whilst cut-off on patrol he was listed as MIA twice)... between 7th and 25th May 1944 he was wounded three times - shot, grenade, mortar - barely made it out... of around 3000 people that went into "Blackpool", KIA/MIA/Wounded/Sickness reduced that to about 150 remaining fit for action... it is without a doubt that "Blackpool" was a military disaster, all to assist "Vinegar Joe's" master plan...

I have only just skimmed the merest tip of the iceberg...

A funny for you - an error in reporting neglected to mention "Mad Mike" Calvert's 77 Brigade's part in the taking of Mogaung; Calvert signalled Stillwell his congratulations with a "77 Brigade are proceeding to take Umbrage" - an American Colonel (a relative of Stilwell's) then spent some time trying to find "Umbrage" on the map...

Dr Eagle · March 13, 2011, 06:22:01 PM

Quote from: Kenny's 51st State on March 13, 2011, 06:11:00 PM

A funny for you - an error in reporting neglected to mention "Mad Mike" Calvert's 77 Brigade's part in the taking of Mogaung; Calvert signalled Stillwell his congratulations with a "77 Brigade are proceeding to take Umbrage" - an American Colonel (a relative of Stilwell's) then spent some time trying to find "Umbrage" on the map...

Did he ever find Umbrage?

Great discussion, I am a history Geek!

Highlander · March 13, 2011, 06:46:07 PM

Certainly did later

( iirc, it was his son, Joe Jr, who took the flac for the mistake and was responsible for scouring the maps... he was a Colonel, died in a flying accident in the 60's)

any particular genre or just across the board...?

Dr Eagle · March 13, 2011, 07:12:39 PM

To a large extent general military history but my special interest would be world war 2 and particularly aviation. I was watching a lecture given at a US military college the other day and was amazed that as the lecturer (himself a retired Lt. Col.) was presenting his slide show on US Air Power in WWII, I found myself thinking... geeze I could be giving that lecture.
I find it fascinating how doctrine drove the powers in different directions and to a large extent believe their own BS. The US with Daytime Precision Bombing, the Germans with the direction that all aircraft must be capable of supporting ground troops and the effect that had on aircraft design etc. Just a personal interest really.

Muzikman7 · March 13, 2011, 07:53:25 PM

This man has the highest score of tanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Knispel

uwe · March 14, 2011, 03:05:22 AM

I'm wary of those tank kill numbers not just for the propaganda influence, but also because Germans were horrible at telling Allied equipment apart so quite a few armoured vehicles might have turned into tanks. And in any case, against the brilliantly planned and executed Normandy Invasion, an unprecedented logistical feat, this was less than a bee sting.

Though being a member of the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler doesn't exactly qualify him as a resistance member (that said, the leader of the Leibstandarte, Sepp Dietrich, knew about the plot against Hitler and was willing to change sides had it worked) he seems to have been a decent enough guy. There is lore about him that after a spectacular success at the Russian front, his superior awarded him a medal and asked if he could do anything else for him to which Wittmann is to have replied: "Yes, evacuate those three wounded Russian soldiers our medics had to leave behind under fire on that hill". Which was then supposedly done. I sincerely hope that really happened, it impresses me more than the umpteenth Allied tank destroyed.

uwe · March 14, 2011, 03:13:29 AM

Quote from: Muzikman7 on March 13, 2011, 07:53:25 PM
This man has the highest score of tanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Knispel

Interesting, this guy never got any farther than NCO rank and is relatively undecorated for his feats. Makes you wonder whether he was seen as either racially (ancestors?) or politically unreliable, no propaganda fodder obviously. Allegedly, he threatened to shoot an officer who was repeatedly mishandling POWs which makes him great in my book, but probably did his Wehrmacht career no favors. He was also notorious for disobeying orders and general "unmilitary behavior" - certainly, the pictures of him in the later phases of the war seem to show a man who no longer gave a damn about whether he looked like a potential propaganda idol:

Only U-Boat guys were allowed to look like this, on land you were expected to get a haircut and shave.

Michael Wittmann covered that angle better:

The skull on the lapel of Knispel's black uniform identifies him as German army, not Waffen-SS. A Waffen-SS tank commander would have had the SS-runes on the lapel and the skull on his cap as Wittmann has in his picture.

Muzikman7 · March 14, 2011, 09:48:17 AM

I know Knispel was army I put him up because he had the highest kill total. I have a first addition hard cover copy of Patrick Agate " Michael Wittmann and the Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte " intresting read good photos, Stackpole books has a two part soft cover version available. Here is a thread about German Panzer & Pak aces. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=70558

Denis · March 14, 2011, 12:22:55 PM

Quote from: uwe on March 14, 2011, 03:13:29 AM

The skull on the lapel of Knispel's black uniform identifies him as German army, not Waffen-SS. A Waffen-SS tank commander would have had the SS-runes on the lapel and the skull on his cap as Wittmann has in his picture.

What I find interesting is that the skull on his lapel is upside down.