Siamese JAEbirds

[Dave W]

"Philippine mahogany" isn't mahogany at all, it just sort of looks like it.

I don't know what Gibson uses. If it's not some variety of swietenia I think they might find themselves in serious trouble, as if they aren't in enough already over that wood raid.

A few years ago the Gallery Hardwoods guy said that for years, big leaf mahogany has been the only mahogany from Central and South America imported to the US, no matter what the hardwood dealer may call it.

Keep in mind that there is genuine mahogany that's plantation grown far from Central and South America. It doesn't necessarily have the same characteristics as we're used to.

[dadagoboi]

I guess my point was if you can describe Luan as mahogany you can call many species mahogany.  The mahogany I'm buying today exhibits the same physical characteristics as the mahogany I bought 30 years ago.  The grain on my '60 is a little tighter, it's 2 piece and looks like it was selected for a transparent finish.  The stuff I'm using now I would call paint grade due to the color variation.  I'd have to select it for stain finishing

From the FTC:  

§ 250.3 Identity of woods. (emphasis mine)

        * Mahogany.

       1. The unqualified term mahogany should not be used to describe wood other than genuine solid mahogany (genus Swietenia of the Meliaceae family). The woods of genus Swietenia may be described by the term ‘‘mahogany’’ with or without a prefix designating the country or region of its origin, such as ‘‘Honduras mahogany’’, ‘‘Costa Rican mahogany’’, ‘‘Brazilian mahogany’’ or ‘‘Mexican mahogany’’.
       2. The term ‘‘mahogany’’ may be used to describe solid wood of the genus Khaya of the Meliaceae family, but only when prefixed by the word ‘‘African’’ (e.g., ‘‘African mahogany desk’’).
       3. In naming or designating the seven non-mahogany Philippine woods Tanguile, Red Lauan, White Lauan, Tiaong, Almon, Mayapis, and Bagtikan, the term ‘‘mahogany’’ may be used but only when prefixed by the word ‘‘Philippine’’ (e.g., ‘‘Philippine mahogany table’’), due to the long standing usage of that term. Examples of improper use of the term ‘‘mahogany’’ include reference to Red Lauan as ‘‘Lauan mahogany’’ or to White Lauan as ‘‘Blond Lauan mahogany’’. Such woods, however, may be described as ‘‘Red Lauan’’ or ‘‘Lauan’’ or ‘‘White Lauan’’, respectively. The term ‘‘Philippine mahogany’’ will be accepted as a name or designation of the seven woods named above. Such term shall not be applied to any other wood, whether or not grown on the Philippines.
       4. The term ‘‘mahogany’’, with or without qualifications, should not be used to describe any other wood except as provided above. This applies also to any of the woods belonging to the Meliaceae family, other than genera Swietenia and Khaya.

[Lightyear]

Supposedly the "best" of mahogany was Cuban Mahogany.  I seem to remember reading that it was over harvested years before Fidel ever gained power.  Here's hoping that some specimens survived and after a new government is in place it can be brought back into production.

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/cuban-mahogany/


Down at the bottom of this article it points out that Honduran mahogany is Swietenia Macrophylla.  Still of the same genus though.

My guess is that some of the earliest Gibsons were Cuban mahogany, later on they were Honduran - now, who knows.  I do know that some builders have bought antique furniture just to get the old growth Cuban mahogany.  I would think these were acoustic builders since the wood gleaned from an old piece migth only be 4/4 or 6/4 at best.

[Dave W]

Carlo, agreed, we're on the same page with the definitions. But I would be very surprised if Gibson is using anything other than a genuine mahogany. At the same time, I would be surprised if they're getting it from forests in Central or South America.

There's a guy selling "Cuban mahogany" which is grown on a plantation in Palau. It's swietenia mahagoni but IMHO it's a big stretch to use "Cuban mahogany" to describe plantation-grown trees from an archipelago in the middle of the Pacific.  Even if the soil and climate were similar it wouldn't be the same.

See this 2007 thread from Jules' forum: http://forums.vintageguitars.org.uk/showthread.php?t=645 (Redbird = Barklessdog here).
IIRC shadowcastaz did buy some from the guy at Blue Moon.

[dadagoboi]

Thanks for the link, Dave.  Ditto your info, Buzz.  Gibson is missing a marketing opportunity if they are indeed using the genuine stuff as defined by the FTC ala the 'swamp ash' being promoted by others.

My earliest exposure to mahogany was English antiques, most likely it was Honduran  (the country used to be  British Honduras and was a Brit colony).  Cuba was a Spanish colony, I don't have any experience with Spanish furniture and can't comment on the differences between Cuban and Honduras.  I'm inclined to believe the stuff I'm getting is from the New World, I'll attempt to find out. 

I completely agree, climate and soil affects the plant no matter what, be it coffee trees or mahogany.  Got to think plantation trees are being harvested way before they would in the wild.  Similar with teak, there are supposedly still old growth giants in Burma, the stuff we know from Scandinavian furniture is plantation grown.

[Lightyear]

Keeping in mind plantation grown wood is typically a "monoculture" type scenario in that the every tree is planted at prescribed distance and is of same age and size.  Usually nothing much else is allowed to grow around it.  Where as the most sought after wood in the world is old growth timber - stuff that occured naturally in mixed forest and allowed to, somtimes, grow for centuries.  Mahagony is no different than long leaf pine was to the southern US.  Remember that the English crown initially saw the new world as one freaking huge lumber yard having almost denuded their county of timber.

Hi, my name is Lightyear and I'm a Wood Geek...

[sniper]

i would think if a person is particular about getting old growth stock then it might behove one to check out recovered Belize wood.

i'm not saying it would be cheap but if one wanted the best available in todays world it might be worth considering for that "special" instrument.

[dadagoboi]

That's a thought.  The stuff is only going to get rarer.  At this point I'm just trying to find out who supplies my source, a 1 man sawmill/cabinet shop in the Ocala woods.

[sniper]

Ocala huh? i have a friend that has a racing museum there. i got him a rare racing engine one time actually, a CSC stroked 430 Lincoln motor with Hilborn injection of historical significance.

if you know who i am talking about, go see him there and say Bill Andrews says hello and remind him of the 430 Lincoln.

[dadagoboi]

Ocala huh? i have a friend that has a racing museum there. i got him a rare racing engine one time actually, a CSC stroked 430 Lincoln motor with Hilborn injection of historical significance.

if you know who i am talking about, go see him there and say Bill Andrews says hello and remind him of the 430 Lincoln.

Sure I know who you're talking about, watched him race when I was a teen.  If I ever get there I'll definitely pass it along!

[Lightyear]

That's a thought.  The stuff is only going to get rarer.  At this point I'm just trying to find out who supplies my source, a 1 man sawmill/cabinet shop in the Ocala woods.

People are pulling astounding old growth timbers out of lakes and rivers.  Buried in the mud for over a hundred years these are logs of America's long gone primal forests.  I think some of the best recovered hardwood logs have come from deep norhtern lakes - the very low temps have frozen them in time.  I believe that most of these logs wind up has high dollar veneer.

Carlo, if you really get into production I'm sure that you could probably buy lumber directly from the middle man - might have to buy 100 BF at at time though

[drbassman]

This is a really interesting and complex issue.  Thanks for all of the comments guys.  It just makes we question who I can trust!  You really have to know your stuff when buiing mahogany!

[dadagoboi]

People are pulling astounding old growth timbers out of lakes and rivers.  Buried in the mud for over a hundred years these are logs of America's long gone primal forests.  I think some of the best recovered hardwood logs have come from deep norhtern lakes - the very low temps have frozen them in time.  I believe that most of these logs wind up has high dollar veneer.

Carlo, if you really get into production I'm sure that you could probably buy lumber directly from the middle man - might have to buy 100 BF at at time though

IIRC they're still pulling cypress sinkers out of the Ouchita River in LA.

If things continue as they have been going I should be able to buy 100bf at a time with no problem.  OTH the labor force might be.

[Dave W]

Plantation grown hardwoods may be more common than we think. A few years ago I was surprised to read that the Indian government controls all E. Indian Rosewood, and almost all of it is grown on tea plantations.

What's next? Plantation grown kopi luwak coffee with specially trained civet handlers?

[Lightyear]

There's a guy west of Houston, in Columbus, that is building olive orchards on land that is traditionally cattle land.  Say's that it works well - the tree are planted far enough apart that there's plenty of grass and the olive tress benefit from the cattles by product.