Cliff 'Em All

[Rhythm N. Bliss]

Ok~ One reason I love METALLICA so much is that when the BLACK album was released I finally purchased my first Lars Ulrich style TAMA Granstar Kit with 24" Double Basses & LOVED playing along with it!
Then that Garage Days album became another fav of mine!!
As someone said--Hetfield was born to sing Whiskey In The Jar & similarly METALLICa took LOVERMAN to a whole nother level too--MY FAV METALLICA SONG OF ALL!
I'd BLAST METALLICA & MEGADETH & do push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups......& funk-ups with my Best Girlfriend Ever in Hawaii!!

In concert they are FANTASTIC!!! First time I saw 'em was with Jason in Honolulu in '99.
I was in the very back row fortunately cuz it was still ear shatteringly LOUD as HELL!
A hot woman near me was doing karate moves & she was SEXY as FUNK!

A few years ago at the Fab Forum in L.A. (where I saw Zep 3 times & 2 Page & Plant shows) the Mosh Pits were too brutal.
There were guys that looked like sadistic METALHEAD NFL LINEMEN FROM HELL slaughtering everyone around them.
Saw 'em in Sacramento at Arco Arena that tour too & the Mosh Pits were brutal but the biggest guys were a lot more civil; they knocked other guys down just like in L.A. but didn't CRUSH 'EM INTO THE GROUND but instead helped 'em up.
So I jumped in all 4 pits as I worked my way around the circular stage to see the band from all angles & got right up front for awhile with some girls I know & they were GREAT!
Trujillo fits right in with his FEROCIOUS style, crouching like a PANTHER!
I got knocked down 4 times but always got a hand up & it was the best workout ever--METALLICAEROBICS!
If you did that often you'd be in great shape!

Michael Kamen did a SUPERB JOB of composing & conducting the S&M concerts.
Symphony & Metallica!! If you don't have that dvd, get it!

Gotta have Cliff 'Em All too!!

[Psycho Bass Guy]

And with all due respect for those who loved underground Metallica, not knowing the brand of their original amps (I certainly don't and the way Hetfield plays he probably doesn't need a Rectifier or whatever so sound like he does) is as irrelevant for having an opinion on them as being able to show personal musical contributions to the world at large.

It's just an example: since I obviously know those things, I want to know how that's all irrelevant just because I disagree that Metallica lacks the dubious distinction of being a latter-day Led Zeppelin. Sadly, in terms of influence on today's young players, they're probably greater, but that doesn't make the dreck they put out now any better. I don't really like Zep either. I guess that's why I have to cry myself to sleep over my poor playing.  

And BTW Terr, I noticed none of the concerts or albums you listed even had Cliff on them save the Garage Days Revisited re-release on "Garage Inc." (I have the originals of both "Garage Days" included on "Inc." as well as the later cover album) For such a rabid Cliff fan, it's odd you don't even have any of the three full-lengths or the two EP's he played on.

[uwe]

I have to say that between pre-Black Album and Black Album and later Metallica, I'm with Terr. I like Heavy Metal, but it still has to be music, the first two Metallica albums were testing my personal limits in that respect. I also don't like any of that ultra-fast speed metal stuff and anything faster than Highway Star is speed metal to me. I can't move my butt to speed metal.

I saw Metallica only once, it was their first gig with Jason Newsted in Germany after cliff's tragic death. This was even pre-Justice for all and they played on a festival with an eclectic hard rock/heavy metal mix, them, Ratt, Dio, Meatloaf, B.Ö.C. and Deep Purple. I have to say that save for Doro's Warlock on their first tour I have never seen a bass player have so severe timing issues as Jason had that afternoon. He was miles off. This was a time when most of their set was fast to ultrafast numbers and Newsted was as out of his depth playing them as I would have been (I'm to this day a crappy speed metal bassist, can't play those root notes fast and steady enough). He was miles off in part - obviously unaccustomed to Metallica's relentless energy and convoluted breaks - and this being an open air were a band can never be too loud to drown out its mistakes you could hear how he was desperately trying and failing to keep up. I'm sure he later on became a better player and perhaps Metallica's later style suited him more, but he was a mess on that particular gig. I can just vividly imagine how the little Dane must have lectured him after the gig ...

Uwe

[uwe]

Re Yanks and Status Quo, I am truly surprised. Whereas in the midseventies Quo were one of the biggest concert draws in Europe and downunder, they miraculously (or not) failed to crack the US market. By their own admission they say in interviews even to this day that the US market was blighted for them. Quo opening for Gallagher in the US is a combination unthinkable in Europe, bit like the Rolling Stones opening for Led Zep in the US. Rory was popular in Germany, and rightfully so, but he couldn't sell tickets like Quo could in their heyday to the jeans-clad "Quo-Army". (That was a term in Europe long before "Kiss Army" meant anything.

So I'm still surprised if Americans have more than a fleeting knowledge of them. AFAIK they never had airplay in the US with their seventies shuffle and boogie sound.

[Basvarken]

The only Metallica album that I care for is the Black album. The early stuff may have the juvenile energy, but the production of these albums is very poor. I just can't listen to that stuff anymore. Neither can I listen to any of their contemporary speedmetal collegues.
The Black album is the first album that has the band sound heavy. Heavy as I suspect they reckon themselves. I remember reading that Bob Rock spent a lot of time convincing Hetfield to tweek his amp settings differently in order to get a better sound.
Lots of heavy metal guitarists dial in too much low end because they want a heavy sound. But they forget they can never compete with a bass drum or bass guitar. The guitars in the first three albums are in the way of the bass guitar's frequencies. Bob Rock did a good job changing that.

I remember seeing them in Nijmegen at a festival with Black Crowes, Queensryche and ACDC. Enter Sandman was a huge hit at the time. And they started their gig with that song. From the back of the field came a roaring growl from the crowd rolling over me. It made quite an impression on me.

[Rhythm N. Bliss]

And BTW Terr, I noticed none of the concerts or albums you listed even had Cliff on them save the Garage Days Revisited re-release on "Garage Inc." (I have the originals of both "Garage Days" included on "Inc." as well as the later cover album) For such a rabid Cliff fan, it's odd you don't even have any of the three full-lengths or the two EP's he played on.

I have ALL Metallica's albums. I'm not a rabid Cliff fan tho, but I respect him.

[Chaser001]

I have to say that between pre-Black Album and Black Album and later Metallica, I'm with Terr. I like Heavy Metal, but it still has to be music, the first two Metallica albums were testing my personal limits in that respect. I also don't like any of that ultra-fast speed metal stuff and anything faster than Highway Star is speed metal to me. I can't move my butt to speed metal.

I saw Metallica only once, it was their first gig with Jason Newsted in Germany after cliff's tragic death. This was even pre-Justice for all and they played on a festival with an eclectic hard rock/heavy metal mix, them, Ratt, Dio, Meatloaf, B.Ö.C. and Deep Purple. I have to say that save for Doro's Warlock on their first tour I have never seen a bass player have so severe timing issues as Jason had that afternoon. He was miles off. This was a time when most of their set was fast to ultrafast numbers and Newsted was as out of his depth playing them as I would have been (I'm to this day a crappy speed metal bassist, can't play those root notes fast and steady enough). He was miles off in part - obviously unaccustomed to Metallica's relentless energy and convoluted breaks - and this being an open air were a band can never be too loud to drown out its mistakes you could hear how he was desperately trying and failing to keep up. I'm sure he later on became a better player and perhaps Metallica's later style suited him more, but he was a mess on that particular gig. I can just vividly imagine how the little Dane must have lectured him after the gig ...

Uwe

Since Cliff Burton was known for his stellar timing, I'm not surprised at your description of Jason Newsted's initial difficulties. 

[lowend1]

I can't move my butt to speed metal.

I am both grateful for, and mildly disturbed by, this revelation, Uwe.

I saw Metallica one time only - at a club called The Rising Sun in Yonkers, NY in 1983. I was not impressed.

[Nocturnal]

I've only seen Metallica once on the 'Ride the Lightning' tour. They were the opening act for W.A.S.P. (free tickets, didn't really enjoy them that much either), which was an odd pairing. The only part I enjoyed was Cliff's bass solo. Every song was played way too loud so you could only feel the force of the music, not really hear it. I was never a speed metal fan so some of it's charm would have been lost on me anyhow. They defenitely were a high energy band tho. They played it like they meant it. Having said that, I did enjoy some of Masters of Puppets and the occasional single since then. But the one's I really like are 'Whisky in the jar' and 'Loverman' (but Nick Cave did it better imo).

[nofi]

i think the key to achieving total heavyosity is in the tempo. a slow tempo is usually 'heavier' than fast or so it seems. take black sabbath, sleep, oceon, bongzilla or electric wizard. even non metal bands like the melvins and killdozer benefit from this approach. based on this theory metallica can't come close.

as far as metallica goes they sound more like pop band to me than a real metal outfit. and what metal band would make a documentary that included their therapy sessions.

no metal head would be searching for their inner child unless it was satan's spawn. i painted this in very broad strokes but you get my point.

[Chaser001]

I've already commented on this, but obviously they had no idea how bad that documentary made them look.  Even if I loved their music, that documentary was the death sentence to their credibility.

[uwe]

I politely disagree. "Some kind of Monster" was brutally frank on their collective neuroses/disfunctional vicious circle as a band/family and it is fascinating in its own right even if heavy metal means nothing to you. It was brave and undoctored (just shrink-supervised).

Heavy Metal is all about insecurity. It is escapist, misogynist, pimply, adolescent, full of supressed sexual energy, sublimely gay in its ignorance of female hearing habits ... the list goes on and on.

What Metallica did was say "ok, we're millionaires now, we're middle-aged, but our insecurities are still with us". I would like to believe that more of their fans could connect with that than felt alienated by it. James Hetfield is a very famous and very wealthy heavy metal frontman who stood up to his demons in public and took up help. In my book that should make him more of a youth culture hero and role model than Kurt Cobain who succumbed to despair.

[lowend1]

What I found most interesting about "Monster" was how quickly the shrink, er, shrunk when he realized the gravy train was letting him off at the next stop.

[dadagoboi]

I politely disagree. "Some kind of Monster" was brutally frank on their collective neuroses/disfunctional vicious circle as a band/family and it is fascinating in its own right even if heavy metal means nothing to you. It was brave and undoctored (just shrink-supervised).

Heavy Metal is all about insecurity. It is escapist, misogynist, pimply, adolescent, full of supressed sexual energy, sublimely gay in its ignorance of female hearing habits ... the list goes on and on.

What Metallica did was say "ok, we're millionaires now, we're middle-aged, but our insecurities are still with us". I would like to believe that more of their fans could connect with that than felt alienated by it. James Hetfield is a very famous and very wealthy heavy metal frontman who stood up to his demons in public and took up help. In my book that should make him more of a youth culture hero and role model than Kurt Cobain who succumbed to despair.

So youth should look up to escapist misogynists because they don't kill themselves?  Cobain attempted to exorcise his demons thru his music and failed.  Ars Longa, Vita Brevis.

What I found most interesting about "Monster" was how quickly the shrink, er, shrunk when he realized the gravy train was letting him off at the next stop.

Metallica is VERY BIG on getting paid, why shouldn't the quack have been?  Being with those guys wasn't a fun time.

[Chaser001]

I politely disagree. "Some kind of Monster" was brutally frank on their collective neuroses/disfunctional vicious circle as a band/family and it is fascinating in its own right even if heavy metal means nothing to you. It was brave and undoctored (just shrink-supervised).

Heavy Metal is all about insecurity. It is escapist, misogynist, pimply, adolescent, full of supressed sexual energy, sublimely gay in its ignorance of female hearing habits ... the list goes on and on.

What Metallica did was say "ok, we're millionaires now, we're middle-aged, but our insecurities are still with us". I would like to believe that more of their fans could connect with that than felt alienated by it. James Hetfield is a very famous and very wealthy heavy metal frontman who stood up to his demons in public and took up help. In my book that should make him more of a youth culture hero and role model than Kurt Cobain who succumbed to despair.

I do like metal and I was hoping the documentary would cause me to feel maybe even more of a bond with Metallica.  It had the opposite effect.  James Hetfield especially came across as more unpleasant than I was expecting.  It isn't hard to see why Jason Newsted didn't want to remain in that band.  I wasn't expecting Metallica to come across as altruists, but that documentary was pretty disappointing.