Imagine Ted, Rob and Derek getting together today ...

[OldManC]

Perhaps he should have asked his bass player how well his parents or grandparents spoke English? Or Gene Simmons' mother. 

Though I get your point on the bombast, Uwe, I think both your examples probably prove Ted's point more than disprove it. Marco's Cuban background probably puts his parents in a decidedly pro-American category. If they actually were immigrants, they probably encouraged their children not only to learn the language well, but to embrace every opportunity the U.S. had to offer them. As for Gene and his mother, they are both immigrants to the U.S. and she worked her butt off to give Gene every opportunity and chance to succeed. Her English may be heavily accented, but Gene's is not, and they both speak it well. Gene is the perfect example (though obviously an extreme one) of what a first generation immigrant to the U.S can achieve if they embrace their new home country wholeheartedly. From everything I've seen, they both identify as Americans. No hyphens, no qualifications. While I don't think it makes me personally better than anyone else on this planet, I am extremely grateful for my American upbringing and for all those who worked to build the U.S. from the beginning. To me, its virtues far outweigh its vices (and always have). Gene's background and success in life are a testament to that.

For all his over the top hyperbole, I've always thought that was what Uncle Ted was trying to get across. That kind of love for one's country may be unpopular in the world today, but I've always identified and agreed with it.

[Highlander]

There was an old film that starred David Niven as an aviator that should have died but went astray in the clouds after his chute failed, so the angel missed collecting him...

He fell in love with an American nurse and so a court had to be convened, in Heaven, to decide whether he should live on, or be collected, now he had interacted with a mortal...

Whilst in court it was decided that he would be judged by his peers, members of the Commonwealth, and the jury contained Africans, Indians, Chinese, Irish, Scots, etc... his lawyer felt that they might be biased, so a request was made for a jury of Americans... when they turned up, there was an African American, and Indian American, a Chinese American... get the picture... some of you may know it as it's considered to be a classic moral dilema...

We are all immigrants in some way; even from an anthropological point of view, the indeginous populations of all the Americas owe their heritage to Eastern Asia... there has never been any ancient finds, from that perspective... and as for the English...

Technically speaking, being a first generation non Islander, my genetic roots are Norwegian...

(Talking purely in Darwinian terms and no offence to any of you more religously minded) Aren't we all descended from the original half-a-dozen-or-so tribes, and isn't there suposition that we all descended from one woman (the original Eve...?) and several men, genetically speaking...

As for Nugent, he's no different from Glasgow on a Saturday night, post a Celtic/Rangers match... just not worth the verbal...

[nofi]

i find nugent's brand of extreme

'patriotism' disgusting because he has admitted to being a pant's crapping draft dodger during viet nam. maybe he feels guilty about something...

we have a southern version of nugent with a good dose of bible thumping thrown in for good measure. charlie daniels.

[Lightyear]

Though I get your point on the bombast, Uwe, I think both your examples probably prove Ted's point more than disprove it. Marco's Cuban background probably puts his parents in a decidedly pro-American category. If they actually were immigrants, they probably encouraged their children not only to learn the language well, but to embrace every opportunity the U.S. had to offer them. As for Gene and his mother, they are both immigrants to the U.S. and she worked her butt off to give Gene every opportunity and chance to succeed. Her English may be heavily accented, but Gene's is not, and they both speak it well. Gene is the perfect example (though obviously an extreme one) of what a first generation immigrant to the U.S can achieve if they embrace their new home country wholeheartedly. From everything I've seen, they both identify as Americans. No hyphens, no qualifications. While I don't think it makes me personally better than anyone else on this planet, I am extremely grateful for my American upbringing and for all those who worked to build the U.S. from the beginning. To me, its virtues far outweigh its vices (and always have). Gene's background and success in life are a testament to that.

For all his over the top hyperbole, I've always thought that was what Uncle Ted was trying to get across. That kind of love for one's country may be unpopular in the world today, but I've always identified and agreed with it.

+1 George!  As always, well said!

The melting pot isn't what it used to be - that's for sure

[clankenstein]

why is your pot melting?

[uwe]

Though I get your point on the bombast, Uwe, I think both your examples probably prove Ted's point more than disprove it. Marco's Cuban background probably puts his parents in a decidedly pro-American category. If they actually were immigrants, they probably encouraged their children not only to learn the language well, but to embrace every opportunity the U.S. had to offer them. As for Gene and his mother, they are both immigrants to the U.S. and she worked her butt off to give Gene every opportunity and chance to succeed. Her English may be heavily accented, but Gene's is not, and they both speak it well. Gene is the perfect example (though obviously an extreme one) of what a first generation immigrant to the U.S can achieve if they embrace their new home country wholeheartedly. From everything I've seen, they both identify as Americans. No hyphens, no qualifications. While I don't think it makes me personally better than anyone else on this planet, I am extremely grateful for my American upbringing and for all those who worked to build the U.S. from the beginning. To me, its virtues far outweigh its vices (and always have). Gene's background and success in life are a testament to that.

For all his over the top hyperbole, I've always thought that was what Uncle Ted was trying to get across. That kind of love for one's country may be unpopular in the world today, but I've always identified and agreed with it.

I don't have an issue with what you say and think, George. But here you are blatantly trying to whitewash Herr Nugent big time for an inane comment and give his words meanings they did not have. He did not yell into the arena: "get out of America if you are not willing to raise your children as Americans, never mind how bad your own English is and where you come from" (though Native Americans would probly have a comment or two about that in their native tongue too, don't you think?). Gene Simmons' mother was a child in Auschwitz and came from Eastern Europe. English lessons for jewish children in Auschwitz were infrequent I've heard. She moved to Israel as a survivor and got to know young Chaim's/Gene's dad, another Eastern European jew and still no English. Gene's biological father jilted the young family and mother and son moved to the US later where Gene by his own admission had issues assimilating and met a language barrier. Ted would have probably bullied the weird kid from Israel. At that point in time both Gene and his mom were Israelis coming to the US for economic reasons, not fleeing anti-semitism in the Jewish home state. In so far there is no difference to a Mexican single mom with her son crossing the border for an economically better life. Are you telling me that Ted Nugent advocated that Mexican single moms are welcome as long as they raise their children as true Americans and teach them proper English? I believe most Mexican single moms would subscribe to that assimilation concept if you let them. Not sure everyone in the arena understood it that way though. Or was meant to understand it that way.

Whether someone speaks English with an accent or not should not determine whether he is an American or not. Rudy Sarzo (another Cuban kid), the Californian Gubernator and Henry Kissinger all speak with heavy accents, I guess we can all agree that they are and should be Americans.

I don't have issues with anybody being pro-American, there are many things to be proud of as a US citizen, both past and present. Grand Funk Railroad's or Lynyrd Skynyrd's overt and vocal patriotism are not my cup of tea, but I don't find it nasty. I also think that the melting pot - by and large - still works. It's not perfect now nor will it ever be and it wasn't in the past if you think that both Kennedy's Irish roots and his catholicism were issues when he was elected not that long ago. But if Obama is not proof of a functioning, if sometimes painful melting pot, I don't know what is. The US can justly be proud of that achievement and it wouldn't be any different if Obama was a conservative Republican.

I respect your views, George, and know that you wouldn't yell something like Nugent's in(s)anity in an arena or anywhere else for that matter. I also understand your instinctive urge to come up to the defense of Herr Nugent whose an easy target for liberal critics (like me!), but saying "speak English or get the f*** out" is indefensible in a country like the US, even if the defender has the argumentative might and warmth of Herr George Carlston. To boot, Herr Nugent shows a poor understanding of your good country's current demographics as well as Hispanic birthrates and career successes. It's not unlikely that one day a future US President with Hispanic roots will say more than a couple of words in Spanish at his inauguration speech. This will not be the end of - adopting Mexican bandido accent - "Amerrrica" and I don't think that Ted Nugent and those who like his arena views will be successful in having that then President Elect deported.

All that said, I like the guitar tone Ted Nugent gets from his hands. And as (G)Ringo would say: amor & paz!

Uwe

 

[gearHed289]

Wow! St. Holmes voice sounds GREAT!

[OldManC]

I think you may have misunderstood me Uwe. Ted's hyperbole needs no defense. It is what it is. I simply meant that both your examples were of people who Ted would most likely be proud to see as Americans (and yes, I have heard enough of his off stage banter on the subject to be confident that he has no problems with immigrants simply as immigrants. Contrary to reports, most Americans don't). As for how Ted would feel about that 'Mexican single mother', I'm pretty sure his feelings toward her would mostly be influenced by whether she came here legally or not (obviously not a subject for discussion here, but a valid question nonetheless).

The heavily accented English of Gene's mother is something to be proud of, because it means she chose to learn the language when she came here! I'm not sure where you got the impression that anyone's accent would be a problem for me. Gene's trouble assimilating was as natural as anyone else's would be when moving to a new country and culture. And it wouldn't be any different for an American kid moving to Germany or anywhere else where he or she had to learn a new language and culture. That he did assimilate is the key!

As someone who grew up in California, I watched kids in my teen years going from literally being 'fresh off the boat' from Cambodia to speaking perfect English and heading off to USC and other well regarded universities. I also knew kids that were second and third generation Americans who couldn't be bothered to learn English (or who refused to use what English they knew) and expected others to accommodate them, culturally and otherwise. As those latter attitudes and practices become more widespread, they affect communities and States all over the U.S. Whether that's a problem is a question better left for another forum, but it's obvious that many people have an issue with it and I don't believe they can all be dismissed as racists and xenophobes.

And back on topic, it's nice to see the guys jamming together again. I wonder if there will be more?

[uwe]

I'm happy to find that we're not that far apart, George! Any working society needs assimilation, no discussion about that, and language capability is a must. If I ever moved to another country for good or a substantial period of time, I would learn the language, not just to communicate with people, but to understand how they think. But assimilation is a bit like osmosis, it's a two way process and the assimilating group, if large enough, will also influence the society it is merged into. That is neither good nor bad, just a fact of nature, but one of the US of A's undoubted strengths if not THE strength is the ability to shape something greater again and again out of individual "parts" that pour into the country.   

Ted Nugent is probably not a racist and possibly not even an idiot in the seclusion of his dressing room. He just sells himself as one to the public in a grating way.

Based on how Grange, St. Holmes and ze Nuge sounded in Dallas, I would sure hope this is not a one-off. Bringing everything full circle, it was Gene Simmons who once said that Nugent would have done commercially much better had he kept Derek St. Holmes.

[Highlander]

I think assimilation over here is failing...

Some places are now unrecogniseable from my youth, from an ethnic point of view... Where I was born is now majority population Indian Asian...

There is a strong possibility that "english speaking" (deliberate little e) will become an immigration requirement... Political correctness means that employment centres must now display advice in dozens of languages...

Unfortunately I now feel like a stranger in a strange land, to borrow a well known title... they just don't grok...

[Hornisse]

'patriotism' disgusting because he has admitted to being a pant's crapping draft dodger during viet nam. maybe he feels guilty about something...

I have no respect for draft dodgers. 

[gweimer]

i find nugent's brand of extreme

'patriotism' disgusting because he has admitted to being a pant's crapping draft dodger during viet nam. maybe he feels guilty about something...

we have a southern version of nugent with a good dose of bible thumping thrown in for good measure. charlie daniels.

Just curious - how was he a draft dodger?  From what I know, he was pretty much playing the circuit the whole course of the war (He graduated from St. Viator Catholic High School in 1964).  Aside from him making the comment (and I tend to take a lot of what he says with a grain of salt), is there any other information out there?

[nofi]

i found a link to a an interview he did for a british magazine. he admitted to defecating in his pants on the day of his induction physical as well as other things like not eating well, not bathing, etc. in the months leading up to his induction physical. he basically turned himself into a homeless person. he said he did not want his ass shot off in vietnam, which even i can agree with. in later years his excuse was a general ignorance of world history and politics. ted also stated at the time that he wasn't really sure what world war 2 was. oh well... i admit that i like some of his stuff but it always reminds me of the 'new ted'.