US rifles not suited to warfare in Afghan hills

[Lightyear]

I seem to recall that the next generation service rifle would use a cartridgeless round that was even smaller than 223 ammo used now.  I read several articles that claimed this new cartridge was simply a solid block of a high tech gun powder that surrounded the actual bullet that made the round even lighter and cheaper to produce.  I haven't seen anything on it lately.

[Pilgrim]

There were a couple of well-publicized experiments with casing-free cartridges in the 70's.  Perhaps technology has advanced far enough for another attempt at it.

I was a bit surprised that the original article said that larger diameter bullets would be accurate over longer ranges.  Lighter bullets have flatter trajectories...but perhaps there are tradeoffs I'm not thinking of.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

I'm inclined to wonder what would happen if they just lengthened the barrel on the M16 to 20 inches.  Longer barrels allow higher velocity rounds, which might help to correct the problem.
...

I was a bit surprised that the original article said that larger diameter bullets would be accurate over longer ranges.  Lighter bullets have flatter trajectories...but perhaps there are tradeoffs I'm not thinking of.

Lighter rounds have significantly reduced ballistic energy at long ranges, which is the problem right now. That's the reason a lot of sniper rifles are heavy-caliber. You get more lethal pentration out of a heavier round. The NATO 7.62/308 round works in the M-16 with a conversion, as well as a number of other heavier rounds that utilize the M-16's ability to swap full upper assemblies, even up to the .50 cal.

A 7.62 M-16, the M-110 rifle referred to in the first post, is a FAR superior weapon at range, but the tradeoff is less ammo and more weight, though nowhere near an M-14's heft, which BTW, is currently a frontline service weapon in Iraq with the the Marines. By contrast, at ranges over 100 meters, most AK-47's and 74's are just 'spray and prays.' All M-16's have 20 inch barrels; the problem is the 16 inch M-4 carbine.

[Highlander]

My dad carted around a Lee Enfield and was also frequently lumbered with a Bren during his time in India and Burma in '43-'44, but that was mountains and jungle...

Not a lot of weaponary round the house, or any house, over here...

The Afghanis gave a resounding thumbs up (I believe that is a very rude gesture over there) to the new British Government trip to NATO Headquarters Afghanistan, by launching a missle attack just before they arrived... our guys cancelled their visit for some reason...

Just to point out that our new head-honcho is short of a few balls for a full rack... he's insisting on walking to work, and when being driven having no outriders... can't see many head-of-state types being that outgoing...

[rahock]

The Enfield is a fine piece of work too. I believe they were also used in WWI.
Rick

[Highlander]

I've handled one, but never fired a gun...

[nofi]

i used to be a 'gun guy' but over the years i have drifted away as my philosophy about  them has changed. except for a few ruger single action revolvers the collection stays  at my son's house gathering dust.

please don't turn this into a gun control thread. that is not my intent.

[Denis]

My Lee-Enfield is one of the SMLE models built in 1918, although the .303 had already been around for 20 years at that point. They are still terrific old guns and along with the M1 Garand, the only long rifles used during WWII which carried more than 5 rounds (Enfield-10, M1-8) and that contributed a lot to their success even if they were long and on the heavy side. They were also pretty darn accurate and reliable.

The short ones, the Jungle Carbines, were developed by the Australians for use in the jungle. They sawed a length off the barrel and the stock, but then they kicked like crazy, so they added a pad on the stock. Because of the short barrel, they also kicked like crazy and the muzzle flash was severe so they added a flash hider. They also tended to suddenly lose accuracy without warning but I don't know if that was temporary or permanent affliction to the gun.

I'd love to have a Thompson though!

[Lightyear]

I have a neighbor that was a Marine scout/sniper when the current Iraq war kicked off - he saw more than a fair amount of action.  Next time it comes up I'll ask him what sniper rifle he was using - I seem think in was standard .308 as he talkes about urban warfare.

As for the Enfields I love mine - last time I shot one I was able to get about a two inch group at 200 yards with 40 year old surplus Greek ammo.  Good enough for me as I am just a passable shot at best.

[Pilgrim]

I haven't followed the development of firearms since I dropped the gig as a Reserve Deputy in 1985...lots of stuff has changed since then.

But if the Army or Marines need longer-reach rifles, I'm quite confident they're in the armory.  It may take the gummint 10 years to harrumph its way through the process of choosing one, though.

Seems like for a wide variety of uses, the .30 caliber (7.62) variants have proven to be a sweet spot for all-around civilian and military uses.

I have an old pre-WWII .300 Savage lever action downstairs with a peep sight on it.  Half the kids today don't even know what a peep sight is - they're all used to fancy scopes.  That rifle is sitting next to a model 1911 Swiss Schmidt-Ruben 7.5mm with a straight forward-back bolt action that my dad bought mail-order in the 60's.  That Swiss rifle is about 4 feet long....what a beast!  the 1889 and 1911 models are just about identical...this page shows the straight pull bolt:  http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/.

The sights on the Swiss rifle are adjustable to 1500 meters...maybe that's where they need to look!  1911 technology isn't all bad...Colt made a decent semi-auto handgun that year that stuck around for a while.

[Lightyear]

I have Remington P-19 that has the side mounted volley site on it!  WWI must have really sucked!  It's still a great gun you just have to aim wayyyyy low when shooting at anything less than 200 yards!

[Denis]

1911 technology isn't all bad...Colt made a decent semi-auto handgun that year that stuck around for a while.

You can say that again! Some police departments, and certain units of the US Armed forces are changing back to .45s because of the absolute knockdown power. It's hard to argue with something nearly 1/2" in diameter!

[Lightyear]

At one point the Seals were using very high velocity submachine rounds in their 9mm Berretas - but they had an unpleasant problem with the bolts failing under pressures they not meant to handle - as in fracturing an blowing back off of the gun into the shooters face.

[Pilgrim]

I don't really know what the allure of other rounds is - a military or police handgun is a short range (7 yards or less) weapon, and the .45 ACP has knockdown power - which is the single most important thing.  So what if it travels 850 FPS and on a good day, you can see the bullet as it travels?  The 9mm and other smaller variants are good rounds, but they don't have the equivalent impact.

Maybe that's part of the argument for larger caliber rounds at long range - they still deliver knockdown power at extreme range.

[OldManC]

I didn't see this posted yet but I could have missed it. I thought it would fit the topic though:

http://tiny.cc/1_5milekillshot