Mike Lull Tbird bridges.

[uwe]

Caveats:

I'm not an Intellectual Property Lawyer at all.

I don't owe Herr Lull, who makes fine guitars and basses, any loyalty.


I thought Scott's invention brilliant at the time and still do. Like the wheel, it's easy to come up with it once you know it exists but think of it first!

That said:

What made and makes the wonderful Dasson Bridge stand out in my mind were two things:

- It gives more intonation range one way than the other if you regard the mounting studs as the middle as its sole purpose of invention at the time was to compensate the fact that all sixties TBirds intonated flat due to the studs being mounted too far back (the Dasson bridge, if reversed, can also make my too sharp Epi Embassy - somebody overcorrected the stud possitions on that one - intonate perfectly, I now have it on all my four sixties TBirds and the Epi).

- It's one massive hunk of steel (my luthier fondled and marvelled at it, muttering "that is one nice piece of metal work") to the extent that it influences the sound of a sixties Bird quite a bit, especially if the Dasson saddles are used and not the original Gibson ones retained, I just noticed that when I switched my last sixties Bird sans Dasson upgrade - a 67 Non Rev II - to the modern, fully intonateable world).

None of the bridges that look akin to Scott's share the above characteristics. They are not nearly as massive (and probably not made of steel) and they don't have that idiosyncratic one-way extension which marks Scott's product as a compensation for what Gibson did wrong. 

Consequently, I don't see any of the bridges made for two stud basses as direct copies of what Scott has done. I think it is still very much a stand alone product which, given the minority of sixties TBs and Embassys that are still being actively played, it will probably remain. Only Scott offers the real and original cure, but it's a small market.

My - totally irrelevant - two € cents Wert.

Uwe

[Barklessdog]

I would also like to add thats Scott's bridge is a superior design and the precision of it is amazing. I would swear it was German engineered, not "Ginger" engineered.

It's a thing of beauty & superior function.

[godofthunder]

Thanks guys for all you input, Uwe inparticular. I know that my idea will be copied. Tony Carl makes a bridge and he was kind enough to call me and talk to me about it. When the Bachbirds were being developed Rob also extended the same thoughtfulness. There is even another maker Lindsey I think, who mention mine on there site. What galls me is that Mike seems to be taking credit for the idea of extra saddle travel on a Thunderbird style bridge. This is a idea I developed in 1983. Hipshot who make his bridges showed up at a gig and schmoozed me and I showed them mine (dumb move but I am sure they had seen it on the web anyhow). While the bridges Mike uses may well have been delivered before mine arrived at his shop one can only presume that him being such a big Thunderbird fan he was already aware of mine. I know a patent may may have help make things clear but the cost was over 2x what the first run cost me. If I had taken a patent out there would be no bridges, I simply could not have afforded to make them. Even with a patent it would not make any sense to litigate, it would not be cost effective. Mark please know that I truly am greatful for you trying to get Mike to use one of my bridges on you bass. I do have a hard time understanding how it could not be installed on your bass with the correct mounting studs and without technical explanation from Mike, I can only presume he just wanted to use his. If Mike had called me and talked it over I would not feel so "hosed" as Bill so aptly put it.

[godofthunder]

btw the bridge is made of machined brass and nickel plated.  

[drbassman]

Honesty and integrity are so hard to find these days.  It's not rocket science. 

[Dave W]

.. What galls me is that Mike seems to be taking credit for the idea of extra saddle travel on a Thunderbird style bridge. This is a idea I developed in 1983. Hipshot who make his bridges showed up at a gig and schmoozed me and I showed them mine (dumb move but I am sure they had seen it on the web anyhow). While the bridges Mike uses may well have been delivered before mine arrived at his shop one can only presume that him being such a big Thunderbird fan he was already aware of mine. .... Mark please know that I truly am greatful for you trying to get Mike to use one of my bridges on you bass. I do have a hard time understanding how it could not be installed on your bass with the correct mounting studs and without technical explanation from Mike, I can only presume he just wanted to use his. If Mike had called me and talked it over I would not feel so "hosed" as Bill so aptly put it.

Now I see what's really bothering you. And I understand why.

When you (or anyone else) thought of the idea really isn't the issue. What is relevant is that you were the first to design, produce and market a bridge with extra saddle travel, and you deserve the credit for that.

[eb2]

Kick him in the nuts.

[lowend1]

Kick him in the nuts.

+1

[godofthunder]

Now I see what's really bothering you. And I understand why.

When you (or anyone else) thought of the idea really isn't the issue. What is relevant is that you were the first to design, produce and market a bridge with extra saddle travel, and you deserve the credit for that.

Yep that's whats bugging me.

[godofthunder]

Kick him in the nuts.

I don't want to turn this into a Lull bashing. He makes fine basses and I really admire him for reverse engineering our beloved Thunderbird pickups.

[Highlander]

Still gotta change your "byline", Scott, to include "THE ORIGINAL, AND THE BEST", in nice BIG friendly letters... 

... and maybe, "ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTE..."

[jmcgliss]

Still gotta change your "byline", Scott, to include "THE ORIGINAL, AND THE BEST", in nice BIG friendly letters... 

... and maybe, "ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTE..."

Aside from those in the know on this forum, where's the website that promotes these? I understand the consternation, but after a keyword search I don't see much "footprint" for these.  A blogspot page would be easy to build if you don't have resources for a website.

[TBird1958]

Scott and all,

 Since I was involved with this it's pretty important to state what happened as some of these comments are way out of line. When Mike told me about his project he was pretty far along with the R&D side of it (esp. the pickups) and no doubt had Hipshot working on the bridge as well. One of my first thoughts was of Scott's bridge and that it would be really cool if he could be the supplier of this part for Mike. It's important to state that Mike knew nothing of Scott's bridge until I told him. I contacted Scott and had him send two pieces out to me and I took them to Mike and left them with him - and at that point Mike did have a Hipshot prototype as well. The first two basses were already spec'd at this point, one for Mike and one for the '63 'Birds donor, I told Mike that I really wanted to use Scott's bridge on my bass if it was possible. When my bass was ready Mike tried to use Scott's bridge but when tightened down and under string tension it wanted to tilt, so a Hipshot was used on mine.
If you look at the photos I posted you'll notice that the slots cut for the mounting posts are in different places, that is the reason the bridge would not work on Mike's bass. It is also part of why Scott's design is the perfect solution for a vintage Gibson. 
Mike of course gave me Scott's bridges back, I paid for and kept one to use on my Greco Thunderbird and sent the other back to Scott.
 I don't know anything of Mike's dealing with Hipshot other than that he uses their parts (i.e. tuners) on his basses so turning to them as a reliable parts supplier seems pretty logical to me. What Hipshot did for R&D seems to have included seeing Scott's work, weather or not it was directly connected to Mike's project I don't know.
 I do know that Mike is as passionate about Thunderbirds as any of us are
and while I and several others prodded him about making such a bass the decision and all the risks involved were his. He is a fine person and has always been very good to work with, I personally have spent over $10,000 of my money with him for work on my Thunderbirds and would never hesitate in recomending him - The only other person on this forum that's dealt with him directly is Dave (PWV) and I know he shares my high opinion of Mike and his work.
 I also need to state that I hold Scott in the exact same high regard  and hope to be able to buy a bass from him when my finances allow it.   

[Hornisse]

Nice post Fraulein!  I remember back in 1982 I was having my Fender P bass worked on at Heart Of Texas Music.  Steve Crisp was the tech and I wanted a Jazz pickup added to the bass. (I know....)  I brought up the idea of a Jazz bass pickup being humbucking and he said there was no way.  I said "what about if you stack the coils on top of each other?"  He looked at me like I was crazy.  A few months later he was installing some of Seymour Duncan's new "stack" pickups on a strat for SRV to try out. (Stevie was there)  I always wonder if he suggested the idea to Duncan as this was before they were out.  SRV didn't like the pickups anyway. 

[Dave W]

Thanks, Mark. And as Scott says, he doesn't want any Lull bashing.

Those of us who were at the Pit know that Scott has been making his bridge for several years. OTOH I can understand how someone outside that circle wouldn't have heard of Scott's bridge.

Mike's site says "I wanted to keep the same classic look and tonality so I developed a bridge that was slightly wider and intonates correctly." Now it's likely that Hipshot's input into Mike's design was influenced by them having seen Scott's bridge, but Mike wasn't aware of that. Under the circumstances, I don't think Mike's statement is inaccurate. He developed a bridge as part of his T-Bass project.

We all ought to keep this in mind: the original design is Gibson's. All these aftermarket products, from the cheapest Chinese pickups to the most expensive custom hardware, are only possible because of Gibson, Fender and other manufacturers making the original products that became popular.