LP Sig vs. JC Sig

Barklessdog · October 21, 2011, 10:34:08 AM

Quote from: uwe on October 15, 2009, 01:17:58 PM
I think this vid of Hot Tuna (with Jack playing a Gibson LP Sig, not his Epi) epitomizes what I mean when I say that the LP Sig has a fenderish overdrive in the upper frequency range that I just don't hear with the Epi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBks7V3SzJo&feature=rec-HM-r2

To me, most Epis sound like this here, not necessarily bad, but wholly different:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=der177k1kHM&feature=related

A more trebly sound still doesn't offer the same characteristic as the Gibson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9K4LQ2Nh94&feature=related

Not even Jack gets his Epi to sound like that Gibson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su9A2EMy4_w&feature=related

The Epi pups just don't have that upper range even though they might possibly deliver a more consistent signal in the lower range.

The first clip was very nice tasteful playing. Great warm woody tone with a nice amount of treble. Definately sounds better to my ears.

Basvarken · October 21, 2011, 01:55:26 PM

Quote from: Mungi on October 21, 2011, 08:54:26 AM
The LP lo-z pickup that is in the Triumph bass has coil taps to alter the tone. The Epi Casady instead got coil taps on the transformer. How about the LP Signature? Does it has coil taps in the pickup, which would mean the tone selector is just that - a tone selector? Or does it have the coil taps in the transformer same as the Epi Jack Casady bass?

Yes. It is the same concept as the JCS.

Mungi · October 22, 2011, 03:07:08 AM

Thanks so much, Rob! Very helpful, as always!

SGD Lutherie · December 18, 2011, 05:29:48 PM

Quote from: uwe on October 15, 2009, 01:17:58 PMThe Epi pups just don't have that upper range even though they might possibly deliver a more consistent signal in the lower range.

They are totally different pickups. The Sig's pickup was done by Bill Lawrence. In "The Modern Era of the Les Paul Legacy, 1968 - 2008" by Robb Lawrence, Bill said:

Quote"I used fewer low-impedance turns, what you call 42-gauge wire ... the normal humbucker with two bars in. ... I wound them to low impedance - on that pickup, about 2,200 ... due to the particular transformer, I had to change the number of turns instead of using it with a low-impedance amp."

The Epi pickup is made more like a Les Paul Recording pickup, with heavier gauge wire. Probably 36 gauge. That gives you less mids and more highs than with the thinner wire.

I wonder why Jacked changed the pickup?

uwe · December 19, 2011, 07:17:42 AM

But to my ears the old Gibson pup has more presence, high end than the Epi pup?

PhilT · December 19, 2011, 04:43:32 PM

I finally got to play a gig with my JCS on Friday.

We did the Stone Roses' "Waterfall", which is a lot up around 10th fret, and it sounded very sweet and musical to me, and didn't get in the way of the guitar, which is a danger with that song. I liked the low end too. Guitarist asked several times if I was going to keep it, which by the end of the night turned into "you are keeping it aren't you?", so I count that a success.

I looked at what was involved in reconnecting the tone pot and decided not to bother. So far I haven't missed it.

Pilgrim · December 20, 2011, 09:49:37 AM

I like my stock-as-a rock Casady really well. I did install Labella Deep Talkin' flats on it..got rid of that roundwound "zing".

wagdog · December 20, 2011, 01:09:33 PM

Pickup differences aside I think in that first clip Jack was still using his Polytone amp which gives him that characteristic mild distortion and warmth that was his trademark during the JA and early HT years. I've seen him more recently where he was using his Epi and the Polytone was nowhere in sight (using Baby Blues, then Aggies). His tone was much cleaner and more articulate. Still 'Jack' but with less character.

SGD Lutherie · December 20, 2011, 01:38:02 PM

Quote from: wagdog on December 20, 2011, 01:09:33 PM
Pickup differences aside I think in that first clip Jack was still using his Polytone amp which gives him that characteristic mild distortion and warmth that was his trademark during the JA and early HT years. I've seen him more recently where he was using his Epi and the Polytone was nowhere in sight (using Baby Blues, then Aggies). His tone was much cleaner and more articulate. Still 'Jack' but with less character.

It's a Versatone Pan-O-Flex amp. Polytone amps are what the jazz guys use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versatone

copacetic · December 20, 2011, 02:04:34 PM

According to Jack his first move on the Gibson LP Sig was that in live situations it was lacking something and then in consideration he was inspired to make his own pickup using the LP Sigs shape etc. We have to remember that he was the original king of modified basses almost from the get go. I do not have the picture on hand but if you look at very early JA pics you will see some radical jack placements on the Jazz that proves he was desperate to break out. he definitly came almost full circle when he got around to his signature. I will say live the Epi JC does have it's assets but I still keep my 2 Gibson LP Sigs for sitting around the homestead and/or studio.

mc2NY · December 20, 2011, 02:16:05 PM

Quote from: Grog on October 15, 2009, 01:27:58 PM
From what I recall, my replacement part catalogs list the Gibson LP Sig pickups the same for the bass & the guitar. Low Impedance Super Humbuckers....

I've wondered that for years...if the bass and guitars used identical PUPs! They are potted and you cannot tell unless you tear 'em apart. Thanks.

I have a couple Gib Les Paul Sig basses and 6-strings. Probably my fave Gibson models.

wagdog · December 20, 2011, 03:00:02 PM

Quote from: SGD Lutherie on December 20, 2011, 01:38:02 PM
It's a Versatone Pan-O-Flex amp. Polytone amps are what the jazz guys use.

Yes, of course! Brain fart, not sure how I came up with Polytone??

SGD Lutherie · December 20, 2011, 03:26:02 PM

Quote from: wagdog on December 20, 2011, 03:00:02 PM
Yes, of course! Brain fart, not sure how I came up with Polytone??

Well they are similar names. I actually coudn't think of Versatone either, but I knew it wasn't a Polytone. I had to look it up!

One of these days I'm going to find me a nice Versatone.

wagdog · December 21, 2011, 06:30:31 AM

Quote from: SGD Lutherie on December 20, 2011, 03:26:02 PM
One of these days I'm going to find me a nice Versatone.

You and me both. Someone should make a clone of these things!

SGD Lutherie · December 21, 2011, 06:53:48 AM

Quote from: wagdog on December 21, 2011, 06:30:31 AM
You and me both. Someone should make a clone of these things!

After this post I had done a search, because every now and then you see them for sale. Over at Harmony Central, someone was saying they inherited one, and was asking about it. A user there said he owned Carol Kaye's Versatone, had acquired the rights to the name, and was making clones. I was not able to find any other info. This was posted this time last year:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2720636-Versatone-Pan-O-Flex-120-Guitar-Bass-Amp-made-in-late-1960-s-early-70-s

I did find an amp company using the name Versa-Tone, but they are Fender tweed clones.

I love the distorted tone on the Water Song!