Paul Stanley's prop guitars meant for smashing only.

[OldManC]

I wouldn't doubt that Gene didn't know about harmonics though I wouldn't necessarily trust him as a source for anything truthful regarding anything to do with KISS. Ace and Paul, on the other hand, are both serious enough about their instrument that I doubt they were that ignorant. People don't seem to know that Ace was also signed to a record deal pre-KISS, and was probably the best all-around musician in the band when they were starting out.

With regard to Gene and Paul's pre-KISS outfit, their influences seemed to lean heavily on Jethro Tull and maybe Manfred Mann. Paul was also a huge Argent fan and Gene worships the Beatles to this day, so it's not like they didn't take music seriously at all when they were coming up.

I learned very young that you either like KISS or you don't. I understand totally that their theatrical schtick turned off a lot of guys that may have been fans otherwise, just as that aspect made them a lot of fans that wouldn't have noticed otherwise. I'm one of the few who really love most of their music up through 1982 or so. I still listen to most of those albums regularly and probably always will. I don't mind being in the minority there, but some of the most vociferous complaints about KISS these days are what you'll hear from guys like me.

 

[Hornisse]

Dressed To Kill is still one of my favorite records.  Rock Bottom rocks!

[lowend1]

Kiss provided the impetus for me to take up an instrument as a 16-year old - in particular, it was side one of Kiss Alive! (which I heard before ever seeing their show) that had me over the moon. Before I ever saw a Thunderbird, I wanted a Grabber - so I could do that growly slide in the beginning of "Deuce". My favorite Kiss studio album to this day is Dressed To Kill - followed by the first two, plus Rock And Roll Over.

Kiss was always a great show - but they were also a great rock and roll band. To a man, they have always maintained that they were trying to put together the best elements of all the loud, visual bands they had seen. To really appreciate their appeal, it's probably a prerequisite that you were a fan initially, that the songs spoke to you. Yeah, the merchandising and extracurriculars diluted things later on, but Alive! (for all its non aliveness) is still a masterpiece, one of those albums that for me is a time machine.

[OldManC]

Yeah, the merchandising and extracurriculars diluted things later on, but Alive! (for all its non aliveness) is still a masterpiece, one of those albums that for me is a time machine.

This pretty much sums it up for me. I LOVE that album...

[uwe]

"I wouldn't doubt that Gene didn't know about harmonics though I wouldn't necessarily trust him as a source for anything truthful regarding anything to do with KISS. Ace and Paul, on the other hand, are both serious enough about their instrument that I doubt they were that ignorant. People don't seem to know that Ace was also signed to a record deal pre-KISS, and was probably the best all-around musician in the band when they were starting out."

You always put down Gene's musicianly abilities in comparison to Paul's or Ace's, George. I wonder on what basis though. Simmons was always dismissive of his own bass playing ("I'm a meat and potatoes player."), yes, but I think that was part of the act, trying to offend the rock press and holier-than-thou fellow rock musicians. If I listen to everything up to and including Dressed to Kill (incidentally also my favorite Kiss album together with Destroyer, Dynasty and Revenge), I hear Simmons play a lot more (and with thought too) than what would be required of a bass player in full kabuki makeup and batwings. His bass lines sound actually pretty crafted to me, lots of rock'n'roll elements, some walking lines, doubling riffs in Geezer Butler mode, certainly less (in fact almost no) root note throbbing in eights than you would hear on any U2 or Billy Sheehan album with David Lee Roth. And while I appreciate that Frehley for all his limitations at least has an idiosyncratic style with his stuttering bursts (didn't they have a song called "Stutter" too?   ), I find Stanley's rhythm guitar playing on those first albums at best unremarkable, at worst stiff. He's no Keith Richards, Brad Whitford, Rick Parfitt, Tom Petty, Malcolm Young or Johnny Thunders as regards groove, but - dare I say it given his jewish background? - rather teutonic in his playing.  (Well, "Eisen" sounds like his parents or grandparents could have come from Germany, I don't know when and wherefrom his family came to the States.) So where is that remarkable Paul Stanley playing on the first albums?

I agree that come Destroyer and later albums, Paul's songwriting perked up mightily and he's not only responsible for one of my favorite Kiss tracks (Sure know something"), but also - as I learned from you - played that marvellous mock-Motown bass on it. He has also become less stiff with his right hand over time. But having seen him only last year (or the year before), I found his rhythm playing still very workmanlike.

[Hornisse]

Uwe is right on about Simmon's playing.  I love his lines on Dr. Love and Love Gun.  Not your typical eighth note playing for sure.  (although he does do some bits during Ace's solo on Dr. Love.....That is Ace playing the solo, isn't it? )

[OldManC]

Uwe, you misunderstand me. I love Gene's playing and was rather disappointed when I learned that it became less important to him as the years progressed (using studio guys or letting Ace, Paul, or Bruce take care of it in the studio). Gene's style and choice of bass lines has always been great to me. Very musical and inventive. When Gene cared, he was my favorite bass player ever. When he stopped, it changed the sound of KISS to me and not in a positive way. There was an early episode of his TV show where they showed him noodling around on a bass and it sounded just like the Gene that played on those early albums. It was nice to see that he still has that in him, yet disappointing to know that the bass in KISS isn't important enough for him to apply his talent to it (other than rehashing the same 20 songs over and over on tour).

I think of Ace and Gene as having the most natural, raw talent in the band. Peter studied and in his prime, despite what non fans might say, was a great swing/jazzy style of drummer that brought more to the table than he's given credit for. Paul is a good player and has turned in some tasteful leads, but his playing is more textural than guitar hero. I picture him thinking too much when constructing his parts. They work and sometimes work really well, but they pale next to Ace when he's sober and trying. If you're familiar with it, think of the Solo in "I Stole Your Love". The first half is Paul. It's very musical and pretty in its way, but when Ace comes in for the second half it rips your head off. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Paul is a bad player, but I don't think he's particularly exciting either. I often wonder how much better KISS would have sounded if Paul and Ace had had the guitar chemistry of Keith and Mick Taylor or Andy McCoy and Nasty Suicide (from Hanoi Rocks, who are my favorite guitar duo).

Gene was the conscious inspiration for my deciding on bass as my instrument. Later on I realized that I'd listened to the bass parts since I was a kid so I'm sure I would have ended up playing bass anyway, but Gene also made me want to be a rock star. You can chalk up any put downs on my part to my disappointment in Gene for forgetting that music is supposed to be an important factor in being in a band.

[uwe]

Well, let's see then how the new album turns out! Among the more "recent" studio albums, I thought that neither Revenge nor Psycho Circus were bad. The latter sounded like a - slightly labored - cross between Destroyer (still their benchmark), Dynasty (underrated) and The Elder (there is a whole handful of Kiss albums worse than that one IMHO). I never heard their grunge vacation, Carnivore of Souls or whatever it was called.

"I picture him thinking too much when constructing his parts." Very lucid observation, that nails it. Even his rawness is rehearsed. Regardless of the wild antics and the (faux) animal furs he wore during Kiss eighties hair band phase, I never heard the animal in Paul's play, Gene plays one note (which he doesn't care about) and the animal is there.

[OldManC]

I thought that neither Revenge nor Psycho Circus were bad... I never heard their grunge vacation, Carnivore of Souls or whatever it was called.

...Gene plays one note (which he doesn't care about) and the animal is there.

From what I've heard, Bruce played bass on a lot of Revenge and Carnival, though you can easily hear where Gene does play (because it sounds like the inventive player he was in the early days). Carnival was definitely another stab at relevance, but (to me) it was also a more honest KISS album than they'd done in ages. Gene's bass lines where he does play are as inventive as the early days. There's also a big Beatle/60's influence on a few songs that hearkens back to Gene and Paul's early days together, so it seemed at least like they were trying.

My biggest complaint with Psycho Circus was that it wasn't what they advertised, which was an album by the original four. The only song on the whole album that featured Peter on drums was Ace's (and it's obvious). I don't know for sure what else Ace played on either because Tommy played on the album as well as others. The song Paul wrote for Peter was HORRIBLE, and Bob Ezrin was obviously still coked out during that recording because it's the worst singing I've ever heard on a KISS album, and at one time Peter had the best rock voice in that band. From what I read and heard, Gene and Paul were dissatisfied with what Ace and Peter brought in and in the end decided their services weren't needed so much. From what I've heard of Gene's demos of songs that later turned out to be KISS classics, the producer's job in KISS has always been an important one. That album, like the Elder, failed in part because of Bob Ezrin as well as the lack of direction in the band itself.
 

[lowend1]

Uwe is right on about Simmon's playing.  I love his lines on Dr. Love and Love Gun.  Not your typical eighth note playing for sure.  (although he does do some bits during Ace's solo on Dr. Love.....That is Ace playing the solo, isn't it? )

Yeah, but IIRC, Paul played the bass on "Love Gun".

[OldManC]

Paul played all guitar parts (including bass) on Love Gun except the solo. Gene has added a little flash to the original line over the last 15 years, so at least he tries on that one.

As for why old fans like me get fed up with Gene?



An ad for the new season of Family Jewels...

[Dave W]

I just can't figure out the appeal of shows like that.

I saw an ad for it and didn't even realize who the ugly people were until they said so.