Pyramid Flats and TI Jazz Flats

hieronymous · January 30, 2009, 06:35:06 PM

OK, I have to access the databass that is you guys' collective knowledge - I seem to remember reading somewhere that Pyramid flatwound strings changed since the late-'60s/early-'70s. This is all wrapped up in the Jack Casady/Phil Lesh/Alembic saga and the search for that sound. Apparently Pyramids used to be very low tension, but if you buy them now they are high tension (or so I've heard). The other part of the story is that TI Jazz Flats are supposed to resemble the Pyramid strings of old.

Does this ring a bell with anyone? I've tried searching the Alembic site and also just doing a general Google search, but can't find anything. I'm afraid it might have been over at the Dude Pit...

There's a great tidbit here at Fred Hammon's Darkstar site - a quote from Rick Turner - but nothing about TIs or the current state of Pyramids.

n!k · January 30, 2009, 08:50:12 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjfhsLuOEWI&feature=related

The strings he's playing (we assume are pyramids) don't look like low tension strings at all (or at least not that low). Around 2:50 they zoom right on his plucking hand.

Dave W · January 30, 2009, 10:04:19 PM

I have no idea about any Jack Casady/Phil Lesh/Alembic connections. I can tell you that anyone who says Pyramids have changed since the old days either never played 'em back then or doesn't have a good memory.

They were never low tension, just average for their gauge sizes. Any small gauge set on a short scale bass would feel relatively soft. They never actually advertised the actual gauge sizes but the short scale set was something like 40-95.

Pyramids are nothing like TI flats and never were, either in tone or feel. I don't think Pyramids are exceptional, i.e. they're good but not worth the extra money unless you need them for a special reason like playing what your hero played on a certain record. They're full range medium tension flats, unlike the TIs, which are flabby and midrange heavy (I don't like TIs, in case you can't tell).

dexter · January 30, 2009, 10:32:54 PM

well ,i was thinking of giving the pyramids and T.I.'s a go , but might give them a miss after reading that .
what would you suggest Dave ( or anyone else ) for a shortscale string suitable for ebo / eb3 basses , preferably flatwound , but other types considered as well. i currently use d'addario flats . not a bad string , imo
thanks for any suggestions .

dexter

drbassman · January 31, 2009, 06:58:18 AM

I've tried just about every flat made (no kidding!) and I like most of them for various reasons. Dave's right on all counts except I do like the TIs a lot. I use the flats on numerous hollow and solid basses. they are a bit pricey, but I like the definition of their tone-they aren't mushy or indistinct.

Pyramids are unique for sure, but you gotta want that sound to pay that price.

I've recently been experimenting with Roto Sounds jazz Flats on a couple shortscale basses and I like them. they are medium tension and sound like the old flats of the 60s to me. the e-string is a bit thumpy and not as clear as I'd like but they are nice sounding flats for the money.

TI jazz rounds are still my favorite rounds. Floppy, mid-rangey and plenty of bite.

Dave W · January 31, 2009, 09:53:31 AM

On my former EB-0F I used short scale GHS Precision Flatwounds (not the Brite Flats, which are really groundwounds). I really liked them even though the gauge (45-95) was a little light for me. The winding length is just right for the Gibson. It may not be quite long enough for some basses with a long distance between the bridge saddles and tailpiece.

Tim Armstrong gigs regularly with GHS Precision Flats and he only plays short scales. He has his hands full as a moderator at the TDPRI so he doesn't come here often, but you could PM him.

n!k · February 02, 2009, 02:23:49 AM

Are the Jazz Rounds higher tension than the Flats? I tried the TI flats for a few months and I hated how rubber-bandy the tension was, but I liked the sound mostly.

Roto Flats are my favorites I've found so far.

Freuds_Cat · February 02, 2009, 04:13:23 AM

I'm no expert on short scale flats but I have tried The GHS pressurewounds that Dave mentions and I agree they felt and sounded good but were a bit light for what I prefer.

http://www.shopatron.com/product/part_number=7700/513.0.5908.16052.22561.0.0

The shorts that I'm using on my Woody bass are Smith Strings :: Custom Balanced Round Wounds :: Short Scale (KS_RWM-S) 44 63 84 106

http://bassguitarstrings.us/store/product.php?productid=16503&cat=346&page=1

I have been using these strings for about 2 years now and I am very impressed with how close I can get to a Woody sound.

Unfortunately they dont seem to have any flats in their catalogue.

Anyone tried S.I.T. :: Power Flats :: PF-45100L Semi Flatwound or Black Diamond Chromium Flatwounds 45-100 ?

drbassman · February 02, 2009, 06:36:27 AM

Quote from: n!k on February 02, 2009, 02:23:49 AM
Are the Jazz Rounds higher tension than the Flats? I tried the TI flats for a few months and I hated how rubber-bandy the tension was, but I liked the sound mostly.

Roto Flats are my favorites I've found so far.

The Jazz rounds are low tension too, just like the flats. But I like them that way. I have been happy with the tension of the Rotosounds Jazz flats as well. A bit stiffer, but not extreme.

drbassman · February 02, 2009, 06:38:53 AM

Quote from: Freuds_Cat on February 02, 2009, 04:13:23 AM

Anyone tried S.I.T. :: Power Flats :: PF-45100L Semi Flatwound or Black Diamond Chromium Flatwounds 45-100 ?

I did on a couple basses and they sound good to me. Very crisp and distinct for flats. However, they have an interesting surface and my fingers tended to stick to the string when sliding up and down the neck. Not sure it it was just me or what, but they are nice strings for the money. My hands don't sweat or have a lot of oil on them, so maybe that was my problem with them.

Dave W · February 02, 2009, 09:22:56 AM

Let me clarify -- I'm talking about GHS Precision Flatwounds. The Pressurewounds are compressed rounds, not flats.

Also, while I haven't tried SIT Power Flats, just be aware that they're not true flatwounds either (which is why they call them semi-flats). The sales mamanger for SIT told me they're ground rounds.

leftybass · February 02, 2009, 12:31:25 PM

I use flats on 90% of my basses, I use Chromes and GHS Pre.Flats, and Pyramids on the Hofner. I don't care for TIs.

Freuds_Cat · February 02, 2009, 01:27:32 PM

Quote from: Dave W on February 02, 2009, 09:22:56 AM
Let me clarify -- I'm talking about GHS Precision Flatwounds. The Pressurewounds are compressed rounds, not flats.

Also, while I haven't tried SIT Power Flats, just be aware that they're not true flatwounds either (which is why they call them semi-flats). The sales mamanger for SIT told me they're ground rounds.

Right you are Dave. My mistake.

hieronymous · February 07, 2009, 10:00:28 AM

Sorry to take so long to get back to this thread - so nobody remembers this conversation? I think it could be broken down into three assertions:

1. The formula for Pyramid strings changed at some point

2. Pyramid strings are higher tension now than they used to be

3. TI Jazz Flats are similar to the old Pyramids

I think we can rule out #3, though there may be one or two people (not here) that feel that way. I have never used Pyramid strings, so I personally can't comment, so I will accept Dave's judgment. Hopefully, at some point someone who remembers the thread/conversation I'm talking about will find this thread, but for now I will stop commenting when I see the issue of Pyramid strings come up. I use LaBella flats on my short scale basses anyway...

Dave W · February 07, 2009, 10:08:05 AM

My opinion is that all three assertions are wrong.

Pyramids were inexpensive in the 60s, just like Hofners. They were considered good strings, I don't remember anyone thinking they were exceptional. I don't think you would be disappointed in them, they just wouldn't be worth the extra money to me. They're just conventional flatwound strings, nothing magic. Some people have just bought into the marketing hype, that's all.