Mesa OUT, Reeves IN............

[Dave W]

Ampeg heads do have punch but there's that SVT cab cutoff that eliminates the low lows.

[Happy Face]

Great thread!

I recently got my Orange AD 200 back and have been puzzling over what power tubes to put in since one is real microphonic and another on the brink.

When I had it before I had a set of SE KT 88s in it when I sold it, but i wonder of those tubes ran too hot when i was playing out a lot with it.

I'll prolly go with simple and reasonable EH 6500s.

But I get the reference to how the 88s might sit into a Sunn just fine.

Interesting stuff!

[rockbobmel]

It's gonna be here tomorrow--Wednesday!  I am psyched- Thanks Psycho!  I was pretty sure I wasn't imagining the Mesa thing.   Especially when I plug in the ""120W"" Sunn.  Night and day. The Sunn would bury the Mesa. 

[Psycho Bass Guy]

Ampeg heads do have punch but there's that SVT cab cutoff that eliminates the low lows.

That's a myth. The fact that is is sealed means that you can electronically boost lows to compensate right up to the point of speaker power rating. Old SVT 8x10'a are quite capable of subterranean mayhem.

[rockbobmel]

I used to have a pair of McIntosh ML1-C speakers that were sealed with 12s.  They were thin sounding until you got the MQ102 equalizer, then, Watch Out!

[Dave W]

That's a myth. The fact that is is sealed means that you can electronically boost lows to compensate right up to the point of speaker power rating. Old SVT 8x10'a are quite capable of subterranean mayhem.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Ampeg now claims a usable low frequency of 40hz @ -10db but I don't hear it. I've made a direct comparison between my two 1x15s and a vintage Ampeg fridge, switching between my Bass 400+ and a bandmate's vintage SVT head, and it's no contest.

Of course there are so many factors that affect what we hear. Placement, distance, direction, etc. But IMHO no 10s in any kind of cabinet can match 15s. YMMV.

An SVT fridge does sound great with a P bass. The frequencies complement each other. Try it with an EB-0 and it's another story.

[amptech]

Hatchback life, yo!  The 115RH is my main gigging cab (not gonna hump more than 1 cab to a bar or club).

I actually like the size, smaller than a 4x12 and the weight is really good. Put a neo speaker in that, and it weighs nothing!

An SVT fridge does sound great with a P bass. The frequencies complement each other. Try it with an EB-0 and it's another story.

I used a rehearsal space a year ago equipped with an old ampeg SVT (really old) and 1x15 cab. I came to first rehearsal with my EB0F.
Amazingly, it really sounded good - dialed off the bass as much as I could, but got a really punchy and warm sound without too much woolyness. I tried a more recent SVT on my RH-115 when I had one in for service recently, but it was nowhere near as good sounding.

When I had it before I had a set of SE KT 88s in it when I sold it, but i wonder of those tubes ran too hot when i was playing out a lot with it.

As a contrast to many tube brands, SED's often come came with a higher than nominal plate current. The bias need some attention, but when dialed in safe they kick ass and last long. This might be an issue for EL34 amp owners with amps biased for new tubes that might be in the 'end of life' category when it comes to plate current and put in SED's. KT88/6550 type amps usually have good enough bias range to make anything work, but MESA amps can be tricky to adjust in any case..

Hey, it's so good to see people use tube bass amps

[Granny Gremlin]

But IMHO no 10s in any kind of cabinet can match 15s. YMMV.

A vintage SVT is loaded with guitar drivers.  A typical guitar 12" has a resonance (effectively usable low freq cuttoffpoint in a sealed cab for a single unit) of 75Hz +/- depending on brand/model.  For a 10 that's easily 5-10Hz higher on average.  A typical bass guitar 10 will have a resonance lower, at 60Hz or less.  A hifi woofer can have resonance below 40Hz.  Then there's an increase in low end response gained from the multi-driver array on top of that.

Put actual bass 10s or proper (sub)woofers in there and it will blow any 2x15 (barring PA bass bins etc; I mean actual bass guitar cabs) out of the water as regards F3 point.  That's exactly what I did a few years back.  Built an 8x10 and loaded it with pre-Celestion Rola hifi woofers.  Nearly busted a window the first time I tried it.  None of my 15s ever came close.

Anyway, I agree a vintage SVT cab is a little lean, but what PBG is saying is that this is likely a good thing as you can get  all the woof one might want using the amps EQ; it's the combo that works. That was probably an (intentional) design feature.

  Especially when I plug in the ""120W"" Sunn.  Night and day. The Sunn would bury the Mesa.

LOL.  They had that low rating so that people wouldn't freq out that they'd blow the cab - a 2x15 loaded with contemporary JBLs which on paper could not handle more than that. 

Like I said, my EV 15L/B (not sure; label-less OEM frame and a recone job), couldn't take it, and I wasn't anywhere close to diming it (though the headroom means that the lows were overly-well-represented; the transient peaks are enormous).  Not sure if it was the 200 or later/current 400 watt version (I suspect the former, obviously).  The RCF is 400 RMS, and more robustly built besides.  I just got it and have a good relationship with the local reconer place so if I don't like it or get worried as I turn it up, I'll go trade it in and have them custom make me something with a double spider - basically a Gauss, but with an instrument cone - EV or something.

I actually like the size, smaller than a 4x12 and the weight is really good. Put a neo speaker in that, and it weighs nothing!

Agreed.  Even with the RCF or EV (neither are light compared to other 15s) it's easy to carry - one hand on the handle, use yer thigh to support the bottom, lean back for counterweight and walk (also I have 2 castors on the bottom of one side for a tilt and roll on smoother surfaces).  I just wish it was 1/2" wider so the Sunn wouldn't overhang; that drives me batty, but you can hardly tell from a bit of distance (e.g. from the audience when on stage).  I am on the lookout for a (rare, especially up here) 30" wide version of the Sunn 1x15 horn (most were 2x15 or 24" wide 1x15 for the smaller heads, or later, bass reflex, which I am not a fan of), or 1x18 horn (seen a few on ebay recently, but they're always in Cali and the shipping is a nonstarter).  The MM RH line was basically a clone of those.  EV also made one (1x18; saw one for sale recently).  I mean it's nice to have a matching rig, but also to loose that last bit of overhang.

Driver weight would make more difference in a multi-speaker cab, but as you say they are just a bit smaller than a 4x12 (makes for a nice visual balance on stage), but  still can't get it into a car backseat via a standard sedan door.  I've cut cabs in half for that before (it was a DIY thing to begin with).  Neo would save you only a couple  pounds (15" frames can get heavy if not stamped frame, which is not an option for me); barely noticed when I tried, but it adds up in my 4x12 (originally I had 2 JBLs and 2 EVs in there - couldn't lift it by myself - switched to Weber Neomag JBL clones and neo Faitals and now I can).  Anyway, nothing neo sounded better than the EV in the 115RH and was double the price (Faital probably would sound really good in there, and I love the 12s, but really expensive, and all neo drivers are from the modern school where they aim for flat response vs older ddesigns like JBL and EV where there is still some, not as big, upper mid bump,; like a guitar driver, but not as pronounced and lower peak freq - that's part of what makes a 1x15 work well as a complete rig, especially with a tube head, which are darker than ss.... especialyl Sunns).  The RCF is probably a bit heavier, but about the same price and less worry. 

[rockbobmel]

It's here.  Simply beautiful and lush sounding. Very refined. One really cool thing,  you can play at lower volumes and the notes just jump off the strings. I always found myself playing too hard so this is gonna make a big diff.
I'm kinda favoring the Aggy GS 112 stack but it hangs over a little!
Sorry for sideways image.

[Granny Gremlin]

Sealed 2x15 with, what, like a 5-6" mid?  My kinda cab.

One really cool thing,  you can play at lower volumes and the notes just jump off the strings. I always found myself playing too hard so this is gonna make a big diff.

I wonder, did you not have that with the Sunn; would figure that would be partially a function of headroom (especially as you say at lower volumes)?  I certainly don't have to dig in as much as I used to pre-Sunn.... in fact with some low notes in a given lick I really have lay off or they jump off to far ;P  I Would expect the Reeves to be more balanced.

[rockbobmel]

I get better balanced sound with the bright channel on the Sunn. So far' with the Reeves, I have tried Channel 1 and 2 and a Y cord for both (I like best). My tone controls flat. I think the MV is a big PLUS!

[D.M.N.]

The Sunn forums are near unanimous about the JJ KT88s specifically being the best new prod option, and long lasting, at least in Sunns.  Then again Sunn did not run super high plate voltages. They also say vintage GE 6550s are the absolute best, but also most expensive.

There is a guy on ebay with a massive inventory selling NOS military surplus Teslovak (not JJ) KT88s (extra thick glass for durability) and I have them in my Sunn 1200s (same chassis and power section as the 2000s).  Had them in there about a year now.  replaced the original GE 6550s which were done.  The KTs are bassier than the 6550s, but the midrange bite and cutting power of the GEs is deserving of the hype.

I get the unhappiness with the Mesa tho.  I feel the same about modern (have not played enough with vintage) Ampeg stuff and just about anything into a modernish 4x10 - there's a midrange thing I hate and can't seem to dial out.

I'm with rockbobmel on the vintage Sunn love.  Amazing amps.  I kinda regret selling the similar vintage Solarus I fixed up; it was great when you didn't need all 4 power tubes and the fx on it sounded a bit better than my 1200s.  The dude who bought it from me did some stupid mods and is now trying to flip it in the local classifieds for $400 more than he paid me (citing mod/repair expenses, including the cap job I did).  He basically ruined a great sounding amp trying to make it sound like a Marshall.

A number of Sunn users do really like the JJs, though personally I prefer the current issue Tung-Sols. My first 2000s still has its original Tung Sol 6550s and Mullard GZ34 rectifiers, and sounds fantastic. When I had my second 2000s retubed the shop put in the new Tung Sols, and so I decided to try them side by side. The new ones sound identical, maybe with a bit more oomph in the lows and higher headroom, though that last part is likely due to the fact that #2 is SS rectified, so they definitely get my approval. I'd also like to try out the Gold Lion KT88s, I have a quad of their KT66s in a JTM 45/100 and it sounds fantastic very glassy and rather hifi for a Marshall.

I concur on the Ampeg and Mesa front as well, I've never quite been able to get the sound I'm looking for out of them. Mesas I've only played through a couple of times, but I felt lacked a certain...something. Hard to put my finger on it, I don't use a lot of lows, but it seemed to lack a bit of sparkle and punch. Ampegs...I'm not sure I'll ever get along with. After nearly a decade of using Sunns, Ampeg rigs just sound muffled, like there's a blanket over the whole setup. I haven't tried the head and cabs separately, but have used a Classic and VR and a Heritage (never a full vintage squareback rig) with matching cabs, and they all struck me as not bright enough in the top end with the mids a bit too honky. Don't get me wrong, I like mids to be present and forward, but without the top end sparkle of the Sunn+JBL combo, they sound a little nasally, maybe strangled? The top end just seems muffled to me, and I can't stand that. To each his own though, I know most people absolutely adore Ampeg, but to me the Hifi-ness of the Sunns and similarly Hiwatts make them stand fairly tall above the rest.

[amptech]

A number of Sunn users do really like the JJs, though personally I prefer the current issue Tung-Sols. My first 2000s still has its original Tung Sol 6550s and Mullard GZ34 rectifiers, and sounds fantastic. When I had my second 2000s retubed the shop put in the new Tung Sols, and so I decided to try them side by side. The new ones sound identical, maybe with a bit more oomph in the lows and higher headroom, though that last part is likely due to the fact that #2 is SS rectified, so they definitely get my approval.

Add to this that new tubes are more likely to have more/better low end than worn tubes no matter what. Tubes can last long, good tubes last longer, but they will loose their bottom at some point. You can recap the psup, measure the tubes and re-bias and get more out of them, but eventually they need to be replaced. I have a KT88 reference setup that I like, with Dynaco mk3 monoblocks and those large Tannoy cabs with gold 15" coax speakers. Needless to say, any chinese or russian KT88 will blow away worn GEC's. But of course, get good NOS GEC's and nothing can reach them. There is surprisingly little sound difference between new production KT88's, the only notable different sounding ones are SED's with their amazing low end.

I'd also like to try out the Gold Lion KT88s, I have a quad of their KT66s in a JTM 45/100 and it sounds fantastic very glassy and rather hifi for a Marshall.

I wouldn't expect much difference. Same factory, same tube, same production line, different glass. But a much better construction than the JJ's and more reliable.

You mention KT66's too, and I agree. New chinese or russian KT66's are very close to GEC's, and I have compared dozens of NOS GEC's to them- both from the 50's and 60's. They really nailed it with the KT66.  Last long too.

[Granny Gremlin]

I have a KT88 reference setup that I like, with Dynaco mk3 monoblocks and those large Tannoy cabs with gold 15" coax speakers.

So jealous.

[D.M.N.]

Add to this that new tubes are more likely to have more/better low end than worn tubes no matter what. Tubes can last long, good tubes last longer, but they will loose their bottom at some point. You can recap the psup, measure the tubes and re-bias and get more out of them, but eventually they need to be replaced. I have a KT88 reference setup that I like, with Dynaco mk3 monoblocks and those large Tannoy cabs with gold 15" coax speakers. Needless to say, any chinese or russian KT88 will blow away worn GEC's. But of course, get good NOS GEC's and nothing can reach them. There is surprisingly little sound difference between new production KT88's, the only notable different sounding ones are SED's with their amazing low end.


I wouldn't expect much difference. Same factory, same tube, same production line, different glass. But a much better construction than the JJ's and more reliable.

You mention KT66's too, and I agree. New chinese or russian KT66's are very close to GEC's, and I have compared dozens of NOS GEC's to them- both from the 50's and 60's. They really nailed it with the KT66.  Last long too.

Yes, I should have mentioned that, the old tubes certainly aren't NOS though still going strong, but definitely will have lost some low end strength. Which is why I say the new Tung Sols are tops, they sound spot on, very likely representative of what the US made ones sounded like new. The other nice factor with the Tung Sols is you can get them at around $35 a pop, same price as the JJ.

I should also mention I've heard very good things about Shuguang KT88-98, though I have yet to try those. Evidently sound decently similar to old GECs. Part of the reason I'm interested in the current Cold Lion, though I know they come from the same factory is that I've heard they are a bit glassier in the top end with sparkle, quite close to old ones. The other part is I have enjoyed their KT66s and quite liked the EC883 when I popped it in one of the Sunns. You're right about the KT66s, they really sound great, it's a shame more amps aren't made based around them. I will say I have not been impressed with the reissue Mullard 12ax7s that came in the JTM 45/100, both have gone very noticeably microphonic. Not so with the Tung-Sol and Gold Lion replacements I've put in.

But honestly whether all of the different brands have much of a differing sound is a pretty small factor, after doing a bit of tube rolling the differences are often so subtle as to not be terribly noticeable in any context but specifically listening for differences. The amp is going to have its own sound, and I really think that is going to shine through no matter what tubes are in there with small variances depending on what brand and variation you use. Might be the differences are more noticeable in a HiFi setting, but I don't think I'e ever popped a fully functional tube into one of my Sunns and thought it sounded bad, though obviously there's some I prefer over others.