new amp quest

[Granny Gremlin]

So I need a new amp.  Love my Garnet Sessionman Vocal but it is just a hair short of power/headroom before distortion when playing shows (50Wish 6CA7 pair); easily fine for jams.

I'll be keeping an eye on that Sunn in Portland from the other thread (it's not moving fast at that price).  I'm not sure I require a full quad of 6550s (so I'll keep my eye out for single pair models like the Sentura II as well).

My main issue is that I would like a 6550 (or KT88) based amp, ideally quad (uncommon enough as that is) with reverb (rules out most Marshalls and Hiwatts; don't think I want a Marshall anyway).  Which means I'm looking at guitar/vocal heads vs proper bass amps (the only  bass amp  that qualifies in that it has reverb is the Thunderfunk 100ls and that's not going to happen).  Not ideal, but far from horrible.  Mostly it means I have to pay a bit more and lose out on more useful tone shaping features. Too bad because Sunn 190bs are cheap, and look perfect otherwise.

Also noticing that MM HD130s are surprisingly affordable on ebay.  There seem to be 2 versions - the standard HD130 guitar/bass version and the HD130 reverb.  From what I can tell the only differences (other than the reverb/trem) is the channel 2 bass EQ cap (and therefore the corner freq of that tone control - mid and treb tone controls look the same, as is the bass cap on Ch 1) as well as having a Deep vs Bright switch.  The rest looks pretty much the same, though some things are laid out differently.  Anybody got any opinions of how much difference this makes - that deep switch useful or just mud city (the bass cap is easy enough to change out)?  Does it do anything that can't be achieved with the EQ?  I'm cool with the ss preamp.

Also if anyone has any other ideas for heads that might suit my needs I am all ears.  There are bigger Garnets but they're oddly shaped (won't sit on my cab securely) and the big Traynors (obviously plentiful locally) don't have reverb... though there is the Mark 3 (YGL-3A), think those run a quad of EL34/6CA7, so it's enough power but not my preferred output tube.

[Highlander]

(when mine's working) I just can't fault my old Hiwatt DR103S, as it has the 4 EL34's, the 50w/100w option, can be used with either guitar OR bass, and quite simply KICKS ASS... it's just that my old beast needs a bit of TLC... mind you, first fault in 46 years...

Good luck hunting...

[Granny Gremlin]

Yeah, no diss to the Hiwatts; I just need verb and they don't provide.  I could make a reverb unit (have a spare tank laying about) but then it's 1 more thing  to carry to shows.

[Highlander]

The Hiwatt's like two or three things to carry to a show, all in one neat package...

[66Atlas]

I tried a Musicman years ago and didn't really care for it.  But to be fair, I think it was the distortion I didnt like which doesnt seem to be your concern so your milage may vary.

Another option might be the Orange Rockerverb 100.  A friend is an Orange nut and Ive gotten some great sounds from his just goofing around with it.  I don't know how common they are or if you can track one down to try out.

[lowend1]

Ampeg V4 / VT22 - can be converted from 7027A/6L6GC to 6550 - but I don't think you will need it. The V4B (bass, no reverb) has a slightly different pre section - the more guitar-oriented V4 can be modded to those specs easily.

Also, the Orange Thunderverb 200 - while very nice, it might be prohibitively expensive.

[amptech]

Also noticing that MM HD130s are surprisingly affordable on ebay.  There seem to be 2 versions - the standard HD130 guitar/bass version and the HD130 reverb.  From what I can tell the only differences (other than the reverb/trem) is the channel 2 bass EQ cap (and therefore the corner freq of that tone control - mid and treb tone controls look the same, as is the bass cap on Ch 1) as well as having a Deep vs Bright switch.  The rest looks pretty much the same, though some things are laid out differently.  Anybody got any opinions of how much difference this makes - that deep switch useful or just mud city (the bass cap is easy enough to change out)?  Does it do anything that can't be achieved with the EQ?  I'm cool with the ss preamp.

I´ve had a HD130 since 1993, it´s a great amp when you get to know it. I spent a few years finding speakers for it (see other threads) but eventually found a 212 and a 115 musicman cabs, the 212 i put neo´s in and the 15 i put a reconed EVM15L in. Love it.

A note on the eq, as you say the 2 channels have only cap differences, but they sound really different. The bass channel is a ´bass cut´channel, and in most cases this channel sounds best for bass guitar. I think the general eq opinion on HD130´s is to use the bass channel with the deep switch engaged. I like that best too.

The switch is as you see from the schematics just a large cap in series (between the preamp and the driver) but it really gets things deep. It does things the preamp cannot. I found it useful when experimenting with cabs too. Another thing, I put a preamp in jack on it, so if i need to have a lot of gain (don´t like the ´drive´sound on musicmans) I just use another preamp. Power enough.

Another note, I have the tube driver version. I know they changed to solid state driver for reliability reasons, but I have had quite a few musicimans on the workbench over the years (seems to be a lot of them here in Norway) and never had any tube driver related troubles. But i have repaired maybe 3 or 4 solid-state drivers. As a side note all of those had stock caps in power supply, so maybe the tube driver handles PS issues better. Quite a few with arced sockets too (high voltage here) but fresh caps and sockets and these amps are very reliable. Good sounding, with some personality.

If you want to, you could set it up with 6550 and probably have more headroom. I did think of doing that myself, but if you have a strong EL34 set it delivers nicely. You will have to use a set that actually handles 800V, though. We have 240V in the walls here; when these amps were made we had 220. These 20V turns them into monsters if you have no bucking transformer!

[lowend1]

I just had another thought. Traynor YBA-1A - Bass Master MKII is rated at 90 watts with two EL34/6CA7. Huge transformers.
Aaaaannnd... the YBA-3 / 3A Custom Special / Super Custom Special, which carries 4 power tubes. All of these are heavy, bulletproof and loud as stink.

[Granny Gremlin]

You don't need to tell a Cannuk about Traynor ;P - very familiar with those (they were made here, in Toronto, and new Traynors still are; very plentiful... in fact if anyone wants a Traynor I can totally hook you up with a better than average price - there's 2 YGL-3As at a local shop for pretty cheap and they always have a Bassmaster or 2 as well).   The Bassmaster is not 90 watts (peak maybe, but not RMS, I'd think).   It's a single pair of 6CA7s just like my Garnet (which I like the tone of a lot more - if the Traynor really is more than 50 watts RMS, they're pushing the power tubes too hard).  Also no reverb.  The Custom special is also familiar to me (had one for a bit), but no verb. The YGL-3As are in the running, but not my preference; I'll probably rent one from that shop to try and see as I never used one before, but I don't expect much tonal difference from the Custom or Bassmaster; luckily they appear to not be consignments and I know the proprietor.

I have been warned off changing my current 6CA7 based amp over to 6550 - that was my first idea (actually KT88s, which is what I asked about, but shouldn't make a difference) by my amp tech, who I've used forever and is really good; knows Canadian amps inside out.  I don't remember the details but it was something to do with voltage (don't remember even if it was plate or whatever).  Might not apply to other EL34 based amps, but I seem to recall that he said  it would, depending on what voltages they were running.  I do remember he said double check the power supply part of the schem and if the voltage is over/under X then no go, and he was right (about the voltages in there)

I considered the V4.  I am hesitant because the stock power tubes won't be enough power (only 10-20 more watts; pretty insignificant) and I am not sure I dig 'the Ampeg sound' (based on using newer ss/hybrid "SVTs" a few times, which may not be fair - there's something about the midrange that I couldn't EQ away and it wasn't the cab - tried at least once each with a 15 and  a 4x10).  I am not sure I wanna go to the trouble of modding it for 6550s; not sure if it would be as involved as with my current Garnet.  One thing I do like is that they either have a master volume or one can be easily added in the fx loop (pre out and pwr in) and they're relatively common around here. .... but I sold off all my vintage 12DW7s I had laying about 

Amptech is making me hesitate on the HD130 front now too (I actually have a 115RH tho - upgraded the speaker to an EV and love the damn thing).  I'll have to read that over a few times, but it sounds like it'd be easy enough to mod the reverb channel to be tonally the same as the non-reverb bass channel.  But I wonder - what is it about the preamp you don't like - I am not looking for drive, but clean headroom (let the pwr section do the work) and tight ample bass; dark is OK, as is neutral, but bright is definitely not what I am after (makes things harder considering I am looking at geetar amps for the reverb).  I do drive my current Garnet's pre a bit sometimes, but I am trying to move away from that.  These tend to be a lot cheaper on ebay; not very common around here, though I do see them periodically so I could try one, eventually. ... so how do I tell if it's tube or ss driver?  All the ones I have looked at (as far as I recall) have had a single 12A_7 in them - since the pre is ss if I see that then that's the one?

Anyway, thanks for the sugg; keep em commin.... my brain is being a bastard and keeps bringing me back to the Sunn 1200s tho.  Completely irrational GAS pains.  The only strike against it, aside from price, is lack of master volume, but I could live with it if it isn't an easy mod (considerring my previous statement of letting then pwr section do the heavy lifting). 

[Psycho Bass Guy]

I just had another thought. Traynor YBA-1A - Bass Master MKII is rated at 90 watts with two EL34/6CA7. Huge transformers.
Aaaaannnd... the YBA-3 / 3A Custom Special / Super Custom Special, which carries 4 power tubes. All of these are heavy, bulletproof and loud as stink.

The Super Custom Special uses 6KG6 tv tubes for a 240 watt output and sounds nothing like any other Traynor, certainly anything EL34. A V4 could be converted to EL34's and US-made GE 6CA7's would be drop in replacements (they're just 6550's that didn't meet spec) but not worth it, IMO. Jake is in Canada and Traynor is like Peavey there, so I'll give a shout out to the VB-2: no reverb, but THE most flexible preamp I've ever seen in ANY amp, and cheap when you can find them.

[lowend1]

The Bassmaster is not 90 watts (peak maybe, but not RMS, I'd think).   It's a single pair of 6CA7s just like my Garnet (which I like the tone of a lot more - if the Traynor really is more than 50 watts RMS, they're pushing the power tubes too hard).

The regular YBA-1 is about 45-50 watts. The YBA-1A (MKII) has bigger transformers, a cooling fan and typically runs plate voltages of about 540v (vs the YBA-1's 425-ish). I've heard of some that were running at 600v. Power tubes were initially 7027As, later on 6CA7s. Older production versions of both can survive at higher voltages. I think it has a choke also, and weighs about 15lbs more than its brother. Traynor didn't list power ratings in the catalog, but my best sources say 80-100 watts. I agree that is hard to figure, but those amps are animals.

Re the V4 - the midrange circuit is active, and works in conjunction with the 3 position frequency switch for 20db boost or cut in any of the three frequencies. If you go to www.ampegv4.com you can view the manual in the "docs" section, which gives you some suggested settings. Also, the 12DW7 in the V4/V4B/VT22 (and I think the V2/VT40 as well) circuit can be directly swapped with a 12AX7 (unlike an SVT). Ampeg offered the 6550 as an factory upgrade option in the Magnavox era V-series amps - I've seen some later ones with a caveat stamped on the back panel "7027A or 6550 - use one type only". The only logistical problem is that 6550s won't fit in the bear trap tube retainers because the bases are to large. Somebody was building one with a smaller base for awhile, but they are discontinued now.

[amptech]

I have been warned off changing my current 6CA7 based amp over to 6550 - that was my first idea (actually KT88s, which is what I asked about, but shouldn't make a difference) by my amp tech, who I've used forever and is really good; knows Canadian amps inside out.  I don't remember the details but it was something to do with voltage (don't remember even if it was plate or whatever).  Might not apply to other EL34 based amps, but I seem to recall that he said  it would, depending on what voltages they were running.  I do remember he said double check the power supply part of the schem and if the voltage is over/under X then no go, and he was right (about the voltages in there)

A 6550A can handle most situations EL34´s are in, maybe except those with 800VDC anode voltage.  The 100mA higher heater current is negligible in most cases, but you might have to alter the bias cct some. Amps that uses 6L6GC tubes on the other hand, might have a heater winding that cannot handle 6550A´s.That said, I never had a Garnet in for repair and know nothing about them, so I say trust your tech by all means!

I considered the V4.   .... but I sold off all my vintage 12DW7s I had laying about 

JJ makes decent 12DW7 tubes, you even have a choice with section is high gain! I have used them in three V4´s, seems to work fine.

Amptech is making me hesitate on the HD130 front now too (I actually have a 115RH tho - upgraded the speaker to an EV and love the damn thing).  I'll have to read that over a few times, but it sounds like it'd be easy enough to mod the reverb channel to be tonally the same as the non-reverb bass channel.  But I wonder - what is it about the preamp you don't like - I am not looking for drive, but clean headroom (let the pwr section do the work) and tight ample bass; dark is OK, as is neutral, but bright is definitely not what I am after (makes things harder considering I am looking at geetar amps for the reverb).  I do drive my current Garnet's pre a bit sometimes, but I am trying to move away from that.  These tend to be a lot cheaper on ebay; not very common around here, though I do see them periodically so I could try one, eventually. ... so how do I tell if it's tube or ss driver?  All the ones I have looked at (as far as I recall) have had a single 12A_7 in them - since the pre is ss if I see that then that's the one?

If you need a tad more headroom and have a 50W head now, the HD will do fine. When I say drive, I mean if you have a hight output instrument AND play very loud, the musicman can sound harsh, I think. It can handle most pickups, but active or high output the preamp collapses a bit. Therefore the pre-in suggestion. Example; if I play a rock gig with a mudbucker equipped bass, I bring a marshall superbass - sounds better when driven hard, in my ears. And another thing, you will not have tons of lo mid punchiness at extreme volumes - the OT is to small i guess. But good sounding, loud and clean with non aggressive instruments.

[Granny Gremlin]

JJ makes decent 12DW7 tubes, you even have a choice with section is high gain! I have used them in three V4´s, seems to work fine.

I know - I was joking.  Doesn't even factor into the buy decision, would just be a 'too bad' sort of situation.

If you need a tad more headroom and have a 50W head now, the HD will do fine. When I say drive, I mean if you have a hight output instrument AND play very loud, the musicman can sound harsh, I think. It can handle most pickups, but active or high output the preamp collapses a bit. Therefore the pre-in suggestion. Example; if I play a rock gig with a mudbucker equipped bass, I bring a marshall superbass - sounds better when driven hard, in my ears. And another thing, you will not have tons of lo mid punchiness at extreme volumes - the OT is to small i guess. But good sounding, loud and clean with non aggressive instruments.

Hmmmn, coulda swore I saw PBG say once that the HD130 preamp was good with Mudbuckers - the ss preamp on my little Peavey Bandit sure gets on well with it.  Interesting.  Could be a matter of taste or does it actually choke out?  I mostly play a Triumph live so no real issue there (even in HiZ output mode it's still not very hot). ... and if I do use a Mudbucker there would be a few bufferred pedals in front of it (including a rumble filter), so that might take the edge off things.

Also, am I right about the driver tube thing - ss driver versions have absolutely no 12AX_ tubes in them at all?

The regular YBA-1 is about 45-50 watts. The YBA-1A (MKII) has bigger transformers, a cooling fan and typically runs plate voltages of about 540v (vs the YBA-1's 425-ish). I've heard of some that were running at 600v. Power tubes were initially 7027As, later on 6CA7s. Older production versions of both can survive at higher voltages. I think it has a choke also, and weighs about 15lbs more than its brother. Traynor didn't list power ratings in the catalog, but my best sources say 80-100 watts. I agree that is hard to figure, but those amps are animals.

I dunno about running voltages higher than 450V in the mkii  - the schem does not list the supply output voltages (unlike the Garnet schems which do; love that) and I can't find any specs on the pwr tx used, but none of the filter caps are rated more than 450V, and considering 90 watts from EL34s is only possible at 800V plate, I don't see how that could possibly be the case.  The YBA-1A (mkII) power amp section looks very similar to the one in my Garnet Sessionman; most differences are in the power supply filtering but looks like both run the plates at something around 450 V or  a bit less.  I know Velvet Black claims it to be 80-100 watts, but I've seen errors on their site before (likely based on period Traynor literature).   There was a lot of fast and loose with amp wattage ratings back in the day and the Canadian stuff tended to list peak power through the 60s and only started to switch to the now standard RMS in the 70s.  Traynor may have claimed it was 90 watts, but Garnet claimed my Sessionman had some ridiculous output power as well.  Can't tell by checking the output Tx specs either; the YBA-1 (mkI) and 1A do have a different model O Tx, but the reference numbers given on the schems are internal Traynor numbers and do not correspond to any actual Hammond model (which is what they used): A1327 and A1336 or 8 (bit fuzzy and hard to read the last 2 digits there)... power txes are A-1310 and A-1315.  I would guess that the mkI being rated 50 was based on the 7027 power section (again, technically possible at the right voltages, but they were using standard off the shelf Hammond Fender style trannies and Fender did not run their tubes at higher plate voltages) and the mkii 100ish due to the 6CA7 switch (which did happen while the amp was stilled designated the mkI, but the promo lit did not change until the model number did).  The chassis of both Bassmaster versions were the same size (very small - narrow like my other, 6L6 based, Garnet, vs wide like the YGL-3 or my Sessionman) not sure there was room for a beefier O tx in there.

MkI: 

MkII:

The Mark 3 (YGL-3 or 3A) was an honest 100 watts, but it runs a quad and was released much later.  It had a larger cabinet and larger transformers:


Anyway, it's all moot as neither version of the Bassmaster has reverb.

Re the V4 - the midrange circuit is active, and works in conjunction with the 3 position frequency switch for 20db boost or cut in any of the three frequencies. If you go to www.ampegv4.com you can view the manual in the "docs" section, which gives you some suggested settings. Also, the 12DW7 in the V4/V4B/VT22 (and I think the V2/VT40 as well) circuit can be directly swapped with a 12AX7 (unlike an SVT). Ampeg offered the 6550 as an factory upgrade option in the Magnavox era V-series amps - I've seen some later ones with a caveat stamped on the back panel "7027A or 6550 - use one type only". The only logistical problem is that 6550s won't fit in the bear trap tube retainers because the bases are to large. Somebody was building one with a smaller base for awhile, but they are discontinued now.

Man I hate those bear traps.  Such a pain.  I went so far as to swap them out for spring type retainers.

Any idea if the tone stacks on vintage V4s and SVTs are the basis for the ones in later not-all-tube, SVT in-name-only models or is there an era voicing thing going on?  V4s come around locally, but between my midrange-based hesitation and what PBG said (here and in other threads I have gone back to recently) I am thinking this is not the amp for me right now.  They come up but usually on consignment so can't rent em to run them with my other gear to be sure....  Though another local store has a V4B right now - I'll check if they'll rent it.

[lowend1]

There is always the "perceived loudness" phenomena as well.
I had an Orange "pix only" 120 (4xEL34) that was positively deafening, but actually only put out about 90 watts, according to my tech. Another tech I know confirmed the 90-ish watts based on a similar amp he had in for service. That said, Orange 2xEL34 amps were typically rated at 80w.

Likewise, I have a Hiwatt 50 combo that is every bit as loud as most 100 watt amps - but not as loud as a Hiwatt 100.

The name "SVT" became a marketing term for Ampeg in many cases. An SVT to me is the 300-watt, two channel, all-tube version - period. There are other Ampegs that have that type of tone, but certainly not all.

Back to the YBA-1 / 1A - The Traynor literature of the period shows both amps in the line at the same time, while spec'ing a higher rate and a power rating described as "twice the power" on the 1A. If we write off the power output verbiage as marketing, how to explain the additional weight? A cooling fan wouldn't account for 15lbs. I wish I had a 1A here now to compare to my two regular YBA-1s. I had a YVM-1 here for awhile which I believe DID have bigger iron, but was not as loud as the YBA-1s.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

Hmmmn, coulda swore I saw PBG say once that the HD130 preamp was good with Mudbuckers - the ss preamp on my little Peavey Bandit sure gets on well with it.  Interesting.  Could be a matter of taste or does it actually choke out?  I mostly play a Triumph live so no real issue there (even in HiZ output mode it's still not very hot). ... and if I do use a Mudbucker there would be a few bufferred pedals in front of it (including a rumble filter), so that might take the edge off things.

I don't remember saying anything about mudbuckers, but the MM amps were just higher powered Twins that break up hard because they're already skirting Class B. A sidewinder ought to mate well with that, especially since you like Garnet EL34 tone.

Any idea if the tone stacks on vintage V4s and SVTs are the basis for the ones in later not-all-tube, SVT in-name-only models or is there an era voicing thing going on?

The tube amps were completely different animals for both. SLM redesigned the preamps around different tubes and re-voiced them in the process. The V-4BH was SLM's "V4" and much more "Marshall-y" in sound, a combination of the preamp and constipated power section. The SVT CL is much darker than the real SVT, but less deep for the same reasons. The s/s SVT series was much more versatile as the power section wasn't its own tone, but they were still pretty dark, but much deeper. If my SVT 3Pro hadn't kept breaking down every other week, I'd still be playing it, but I like a more scooped tone because my attack is much, much brighter than most folks.

V4s come around locally, but between my midrange-based hesitation and what PBG said (here and in other threads I have gone back to recently) I am thinking this is not the amp for me right now.

Ironically, you may want to try the NEW Loud Tech V4B (again, no reverb). Based on Bass Gear Magazine's report when matched against a vintage V4, it's a brighter amp with a more versatile tone section. It has the power, but not the darker tone of actual V4's. Premier Guitar has a review with video, so ignore the misinformation in the text and check out the sound, which is in keeping with what BGM said.