Gibson factory tour 1967

[uwe]

I wasn't trying to insinuate that the then new 80ies American metal bands were more Punk than the Ramones, but they were of course influenced by Punk energy and attitude, nothing wrong with that. Even early Iron Maiden had tapped on Punk energy and Paul Di'Anno wouldn't have been out of place with, say, the UK Subs.

But thinking about it, one of the differentiating aspects between Heavy Metal and most Punk is that Punk tends to be majorish and Heavy Metal minorish. Social revolutions are in major, dystopian Heavy Metal doom is in minor. Heavy Metal fans don't rebel like Punks, they escape reality and routine and their favorite music reflects that.

And Nirvana didn't even know what the hell they were doing either way, manor- or mijorish. 

[Basvarken]

You seem to be obsessed with this minor/major schism?
I've noticed you mention it more often lately.
Most (rock, pop, metal, etc) music uses both dear Uwe.
It's weird to assign either to a genre.
The use of minor and major within one song is very common too. Guess that drives you crazy?

[doombass]

The use of minor and major within one song is very common too. Guess that drives you crazy?

I guess even better, a bassplayer playing minor over a major chord? 

[slinkp]

Anthrax have, to my ears, got better at meshing their riffs with Joey Belladonna's voice. I really enjoyed their work on "For All Kings". The chorus of this one is downright hooky.  Uwe still might not like it because it uses both major and minor

And Nirvana didn't even know what the hell they were doing either way, manor- or mijorish.

That's just trolling Uwe - but I am going to fall for it
Nirvana were perfectly aware of the difference between major and minor. "Wrong" notes are a prominent part of the aesthetic. You just don't like it .  And that's fine.  But to claim it was accidental ignorance is false.

Getting away from those two tangents and back to my original tangent that still has little to do with Gibson factory tours ....
while I can enjoy Raining Blood (with the bass properly submerged in the mix), I think some of you may join me in enjoying this version better... I'm sure I've posted it before ... the bridge is a thing of genius.

[uwe]

You seem to be obsessed with this minor/major schism?
I've noticed you mention it more often lately.
Most (rock, pop, metal, etc) music uses both dear Uwe.
It's weird to assign either to a genre.
The use of minor and major within one song is very common too. Guess that drives you crazy?

Of course a song in a major key can use minor chords and vice versa, no issue with that at all. Every major key has a relative minor one and vice versa. That is just circle of fifths basics.

I'm even ok with breaking the rules if it is skillfully done., i.e. putting a major chord where a minor should go according to conventional harmony as Albert Hammond did in The Air That I Breathe with the second chord - that breaks the rules, but sounded fresh. Or the key change in Every Breath You Take when Sting goes into the middle eight Since you've gone, I've been lost without a trace ....

But some of the wanton harmony and key changes that Nirvana and Soundgarden did were (and continue to be) painful for me. It sounds to me like someone doesn't know what he is doing. Some Nirvana songs don't even have a definitive key they're in.

And I'm also not a great fan of playing minor blues scales (rather than major ones) over major key harmonies, it's lazy thing to do, Oasis did that a lot, Angus Young does it too, probably because both don't want to sound like Southern Rock where people tend to play the proper (major) scales over major harmonies. You never heard Molly Hatchet or Lynyrd Skynyrd play minorish over a majorish chord progression.

Of course there are bands and music styles that favor one thing over another! Almost all Reggae and C&W music is in major keys (folk music generally tends to be, whether in Germany or Hawaii), which doesn't mean that they do not play minor chords within those scales because they belong there under the rules of harmony.

All classic Deep Purple hits are in minor keys, the one exception from the Mk II, III and IV line-ups is Woman From Tokyo which also contains a nifty key change to the verse (G major) from the riff (E major), a rare thing with Purple.

And nearly all Status Quo hits are in major keys whereby it is noteworthy that Francis Rossi is as a lead guitarist a rare breed as he almost always solos in major scales even when the song is in a minor key (most guitarists do it the other way around, see Oasis or Angus Young). A case in point: Don't Think It Matters is a song in D minor with classic D minor pentatonic riffs. Come the solo, nearly all rock guitarists (Blackmore, Iommi, Angus Young, Gilmour, Trower, Alvin Lee etc) would play a minor scale solo, but what does Francis Rossi do? He plays a solo in D major with aplomb at 02:05:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWedyugALz4&list=RDcWedyugALz4&start_radio=1

That is why the solo part sounds all of the sudden so jubilant and radically changes the mood of what is essentially a dark song. Strictly speaking that is a key change from D minor to D major - it has nothing to do with a relative major key to D minor, that would have been F major, but Quo don't go there, they stick to the D and Rossi changes it from minor to major via the choice of his (D major key) notes. It's a Status Quo trademark by the way and explains why Francis Rossi solos so often sound "happy". Alan Lancaster, the bassist, once said: "I believe initially Francis didn't know what he was doing, he simply couldn't solo in anything but major scales. And over time it became our trademark and made our music more relatable because he was essentially playing folk melodies over a hard rock rhythm."

By the way, my dislike of Led Zep also has to do with the fact that Jimmy Page had a habit of mixing up major and minor keys and scales in his songwriting. I often find that grating as well, key changes should be used sparingly and best by people who know what they are doing. Albert Hammond did.

Your Thin Lizzy guys wrote a lot in major keys too, The Boys Are Back In Town (a song with an unusual chord progression for a hard rock number) among them. Phil Lynott would however only rarely break with traditional harmony rules. And they told Scott Gorham what to play because by his own admission he wasn't too sure about the difference either and hence learned his solos note for note, almost never changing them. Have you bought the new boxed set with all the source gigs for Live & Dangerous yet? I have!

[uwe]

That's just trolling Uwe - but I am going to fall for it
Nirvana were perfectly aware of the difference between major and minor. "Wrong" notes are a prominent part of the aesthetic. You just don't like it .  And that's fine.  But to claim it was accidental ignorance is false.

I disagree. I believe that if you had asked Kurt Cobain if he knew what the relative major key to an A minor chord progression was (it's C major), he would have just stared at you blankly. And even more blankly if you had asked him whether the solo in DP's Highway Star and the guitar melody in the Allman Brothers' Jessica were major or minor (the former is minor, the latter major). I'm not even knocking him for that, that was not the way he went about writing music. But the results he achieved often sounded grating to me.

[morrow]

We've been working on some Mexican themed instrumental music , and sometimes I come across a major triad being played over a minor chord.

Sometimes it isn't easy learning to play the wrong notes.

[uwe]

Yes, and sometimes that can even sound interesting or spice things up! I'm not a purist, but Grunge brought me to my limits fast. And initially I didn't even realize what it was that rubbed me the wrong way. I remember listening to Nirvana's  Nevermind in the car of our then guitarist, he was over the moon with it and I just found it excruciatingly horrible, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS MUSIC?!!!  And when I heard Soundgarden's Black Hole Sun in a live version I was aghast, because I really thought they played - repeatedly - the "wrong" chords by accident! 

And yet: The traditional Greensleeves melody contains (in most versions) three different types of minor: natural, harmonic and melodic minor. It works and is a lovely tune.

"Sometimes I come across a major triad being played over a minor chord ..."

So does Marc Bolan in Get it On (Bang a Gong) in the chorus - it sounds great and very T. Rex'y.

[Basvarken]

Your Thin Lizzy guys wrote a lot in major keys too, The Boys Are Back In Town (a song with an unusual chord progression for a hard rock number) among them. Phil Lynott would however only rarely break with traditional harmony rules. And they told Scott Gorham what to play because by his own admission he wasn't too sure about the difference either and hence learned his solos note for note, almost never changing them. Have you bought the new boxed set with all the source gigs for Live & Dangerous yet? I have!

Yeah it arrived yesterday. I love it. The 7 concert registrations are awesome. The band was firing on all cylinders!
And proof that Visconti exaggerated a lot when he claimed 70% was overdubbed on the official album.
I had some of the shows as a bootleg. But to hear them properly mixed and cleaned up is a joy to listen to.

I don't understand why they didn't include It's Only Money on the initial release too. One of my favorite Thin Lizzy tunes.

[slinkp]

I disagree. I believe that if you had asked Kurt Cobain if he knew what the relative major key to an A minor chord progression was (it's C major), he would have just stared at you blankly.

That's beside my point. I believe there are many, many musicians who have a good working understanding of keys and harmony regardless of whether they have learned the terminology.

Black Hole Sun is supposed to be disturbing. I don't know what live version you heard, but nothing in the studio version is an accident.

[westen44]

I never knew what Black Hole Sun was supposed to be about.  I've listened to it several times, but never liked it from the first.  On the other hand, I liked the way Chris Cornell sounded with Audioslave. 

[morrow]

With some blues they like a flat 7 over a major chord.
Dominant .
That's been known to tip up many well schooled players.

[uwe]

That's beside my point. I believe there are many, many musicians who have a good working understanding of keys and harmony regardless of whether they have learned the terminology.

Black Hole Sun is supposed to be disturbing. I don't know what live version you heard, but nothing in the studio version is an accident.

I didn't say that Kurt didn't hear the difference between an A minor and an A major chord, he wasn't tone deaf. But claiming that a profound harmonic understanding went into his compositions is overstating things - I think he just played by ear and liked (or didn't mind) chord changes that grated a little.

Re Black Hole Sun, of course that live version wasn't misplayed, it was just like the studio version, that's actually the point, but the angular chord changes gobsmacked me and I tried to make sense of them.

But there are exceptions to every rule, after all the "Hendrix Chord"/7#9 chord is an intentional clash of major and minor too.

[slinkp]

I didn't say that Kurt didn't hear the difference between an A minor and an A major chord, he wasn't tone deaf. But claiming that a profound harmonic understanding went into his compositions is overstating things - I think he just played by ear and liked (or didn't mind) chord changes that grated a little.

Finally something we agree on: I think he played (mostly or entirely) by ear and definitely liked grating chord changes.

I did not say anything about "profound harmonic understanding". I said "good working understanding of keys and harmony regardless of whether they have learned the terminology."

It's entirely possible, as an artist, to know what you're doing without being able to put it into words.