Manchester ...

[uwe]

I'm not disagreeing by an iota.

But it is unimaginable to me that I could hate anyone so much I would want to target his or her children. That type of hate is only possible where you deny the humanity of your opponent.

[dadagoboi]

I'm not disagreeing by an iota.

But it is unimaginable to me that I could hate anyone so much I would want to target his or her children. That type of hate is only possible where you deny the humanity of your opponent.

Can't imagine it?  After all the history you claim to have absorbed?

Denying the humanity of your opponent is the major tenet of warfare, modern or ancient.

[dadagoboi]

This is why what happened in Manchester is not unimaginable to me...



UWE EDIT: Yeah, but despite your wry outlook on life, couldn't you have saved a little of, say, Ray Davies' inherent optimism as well? Your world view is kind of desolate.

[uwe]

I'm a middle child. Us folks learn early that we are never as important as our younger or older siblings. Being able to put yourself in the shoes of the protagonists of that permanent grievance against you - that includes leaving them their humanity - helps you come to grips with it. 

I believe in progress, albeit with (sometimes major) setbacks. History interests me and we can all learn from it, but I never believed the "we are damned to repeat it"-adage. And as an evolutionist, I never rule out that man can better himself. My horrible socialist leanings tell me we do better as a collective.

[dadagoboi]

I'm a middle child. Us folks learn early that we are never as important as our younger or older siblings. Being able to put yourself in the shoes of the protagonists of that permanent grievance against you - that includes leaving them their humanity - helps you come to grips with it. 

I believe in progress, albeit with (sometimes major) setbacks. History interests me and we can all learn from it, but I never believed the "we are damned to repeat it"-adage. And as an evolutionist, I never rule out that man can better himself. My horrible socialist leanings tell me we do better as a collective.

Unlike you, I believe past behavior IS an indicator of future action. Manchester is just another in a long line of confirmations.  It has nothing to do with pessimism and all to do with reality as I perceive it. 

Trends become evident...as in "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" Economic Change and Military Conflict from 1500 to 2000(written 1986 and revised early 2000s).  Read it and you might understand that, yes, History does repeat itself.    But, alas, not as satisfying as Bionic Paul calling for a moment of silence while Gene reloads to shoot fire out his ass.

[Rob]

I simply want to point out that this thread has taken on an interesting philosophical journey.

[uwe]

"History does repeat itself."

Only if you let it. 




"But, alas, not as satisfying as Bionic Paul calling for a moment of silence while Gene reloads to shoot fire out his ass."

Indeed, compared to the intellectual confinement and rigid views of some people, KISS is a cornucopia of musical flexibility and open-mindedness.

[dadagoboi]

I simply want to point out that this thread has taken on an interesting philosophical journey.

My dad was part of a 'MASH' unit that was engaged in WWII from North Africa thru Anzio and Monte Cassino, France and the Bulge into Germany, finally being part of liberating a concentration camp.  I'm well aware of the horrors of war, I've seen the photos he took in all those places.  That's why I don't believe in assigning ratings to individual acts of brutality. 

I  can understand the desire of those with limited power to exact maximum vengeance against their enemies in any way possible, including killing their children.  My personal philosophy has no bearing on their reality.

[Dave W]

For the record:

- There is no difference in the value of children's lives - irrespective of location or faith.

- Western policy in the Mideast in the last 100 years was a cynical nightmare. Anybody who accuses me of being blind to that - or taking a one-sided Western stance - hasn't been reading my posts here in the last 10 years or so (or is an utter cretin). You might as well say that I obviously dislike Deep Purple.

- But even an extreme wrong (or series of it) can by no means justify - or somehow relativize - another extreme wrong. The Manchester bombing was devoid of anything but hate - no military value, no political symbolism attached, chances of the slaughtered girls turning into crusaders of the British Army that would wantonly kill Muslim children as collateral damage sometime in the future in order to plunder the Mideast's riches (or however your line of thought goes; btw, we're nearing the end of the gasoline and diesel era, if that eventually brings peace to the Middle East then so much the better) were zilch. The "blowback" argument is just another version of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" which has never convinced me as a concept of justification or bringing mankind forward (always the progressive, eh?!).



The Old Testament is largely full of retaliatory crap like the above and - while we're at it - spare me with Matthew citations, Dave, you know I'm an agnostic.

The Matthew citation referred to my sentence directly above it. It's not directed toward you at all.

Blowback is never an excuse. it's an explanation.

Yes, the bombing was devoid of anything but hate. What about drone pilots who deliberately target wedding parties, then deliberately target the rescuers who follow, and who refer to the victims as "bugsplat"? Is that not blind hatred?

Apparently the bomber was UK-born but of Libyan descent and resented Libya being turned into a hellhole of death and starvation by the US and UK. Is his murderous rage somehow worse than the murderous rage of the powers that have killed so many innocent civilians in his homeland?

[uwe]

No, of course not. Aghanistan (pre 9/11 support for the Mujahideen against Russia), Iraq, Lybia, Syria - all those Western interventions were wrong. Show me where I supported them last.

Is his rage worse than other people's? No, but it suffices for me that it is plain horrible all by itself, period.

[Highlander]

On a small island off the British coastline lies an Island called Barra, where I visited 10 days back to carry out some service work at the Island's hospital... you can drive round the whole Island's loop road in about 25 minutes... and it has a unique airport where scheduled services operate from a crushed shell beach, which is underwater at high-tide...
Two children from the Island, age 14 and 15, were at that concert... together...
The 15 year old is in hospital in Manchester, critically ill, described as having been, "close to where the explosion went off..."
The Police believe the identity of the 22 dead are now known but they are classing the 14 year old as "missing", not one of the dead...
The families of both children are in Manchester, one with their daughter; the other probably scared witless, wondering where the hell their little girl is...
Nothing... any of you say... will make the slightest difference to them... nor will it help anyone else...
Please drop it...

[Dave W]

I agree, Ken.

[Alanko]

Please drop it...

I agree, and I liked your bit about Barra as well. A tiny community to have had this happen to them.

[Pilgrim]

Also agreed. Not something to be explained or resolved here.

[uwe]

Ok, let's just all pretend it was a natural disaster, a tsunami of sorts, not a man-made act.