Another WWII find

[gweimer]

I've had discussions before that revolved around the idea that land ownership is a European concept, created by the cave dwellers.  Tribal cultures often had a relationship with the Earth - they took what they needed from it, and gave back to it.

[dadagoboi]

Well, the Native Americans have had a bit of luck through the courts and casinos and getting back a tiny bit of their stuff.  There just is very little connection between the majority of current Egyptian population with the fine folks who cranked out pyramids and mummies.  The Coptic minority would have a very strong and valid claim, but they have other things on their minds these days. George Santayana is chuckling.

By your reasoning the victims of Nazi art theft don't deserve to get their stuff back since they didn't create it, they just happened to be living in the place it was stolen.

[Dave W]

By your reasoning the victims of Nazi art theft don't deserve to get their stuff back since they didn't create it, they just happened to be living in the place it was stolen.

I don't see these as equivalents. Victims of Nazi art theft owned their art as private property. That's not the same as whether or not a state has a claim to cultural artifacts that aren't privately owned.

[Big_Stu]

I've had discussions before that revolved around the idea that land ownership is a European concept, created by the cave dwellers.  Tribal cultures often had a relationship with the Earth - they took what they needed from it, and gave back to it.

.......... and now it's revolved again.............

Tribal cultures have a relationship with the P40 - they took what they needed from it.

 

[dadagoboi]

I don't see these as equivalents. Victims of Nazi art theft owned their art as private property. That's not the same as whether or not a state has a claim to cultural artifacts that aren't privately owned.

Quite a bit of public art was stolen as well as private.  By and large it was easier to get the public art back, except of course the public art stolen by the Nazis that fell into the hands of the Soviets.

[OldManC]

I don't have a dog in any fight as to who stole what from whom, but I do think it's interesting that the biggest danger to Egyptian treasures still in country is from Egyptians themselves. (Granted not all Egyptians, but still...)



Nor does it seem to be a new or rare problem in the Middle East:

In a report to the UN cultural agency UNESCO and the EU conservation group Euromed Heritage, Martin and the other archaeologists warned that the troops’ fortifications have damaged parts of the ruins. They say there are also reports of looting under the troops’ noses — raising the possibility they were involved.

“Many groups have attempted to conduct secret excavations, starting by the security forces,” their report said, referring to looting around the country. The archaeologists, who have set up a Facebook page to track reports of damage, say illicit digs have taken place at a number of unexcavated tells and other sites.

Besides the break-in at Krak des Chevaliers in March, gunmen have also targeted a museum in the city of Hama, making off with antiques and a priceless gold statue dating back to the Aramaic era, said Jammous, of the government’s museum agency.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/syrian-historical-sites-in-danger/

[Pilgrim]

At present, I think antiquities housed in the US or Europe are a great deal safer than those housed in most Middle Eastern countries, especially those undergoing political turmoil.  Consider the magnificient Buddha statues in Afghanistan destroyed by those nutballs in the Taliban.

[eb2]

Ahh, the Buddahs.  A sad state of affairs.  At least they were photographed. 

I see no equivalent to the Nazi stolen art.  Art commissioned by or purchased by private parties and then stolen is theft. 

A better equivalent is the cultural artifacts that were hauled away by wealthy individuals and private foundations in the 19th century when it was fashionable.  My favorite being the Isabella Stewart Gardner museum - basically a rich broad running around the mediterranean giving kids candy to smash statues and pottery.  Whatever government existed in many of these areas had been either disorganized, corrupt or more likely puzzled that anyone would want that old crap.  But for an example that must exist somewhere, if some early archaeologist dug up a Greek artifact in what is now Turkey, and it were now in a museum in say France, who would have a more valid claim to it than the French museum?  The Turkish government?  Not a valid claim to my mind.  If those Buddha statues had been spirited away from Afghanistan before the Taliban trucked out the TNT, they would have every right to demand them back to blow them up.  I would not want them handed over. But if one looks for injustices, one can always find some.

[Barklessdog]

Horrible fake accent cool tank

!

[leftybass]

The Stuart is my all-time fave tank, tho' I prefer the M3 to the M5 in the vid.

[patman]

The Buddha statues in Afghanistan still piss me off.  How a group of people like that could be so utterly clueless and be in some sort of position of responsibility baffles me.

[dadagoboi]

The Buddha statues in Afghanistan still piss me off.  How a group of people like that could be so utterly clueless and be in some sort of position of responsibility baffles me.

Not that much different from what almost every other Theocracy does with previous dominant religions' customs and artifacts.  Why does the day Easter falls on change every year?  Catholic church did that to take away the most important Pagan holiday, first Sunday after the first full moon of the Spring Equinox.  Christmas replaced the Saturnalia and winter solstice celebration.

There are many examples of actual stuff considered sacred by other religions being destroyed or taken by Christianity.   It pisses ME off that the Pantheon was desecrated and turned into a church.  I'm sure the Taliban considered getting rid of the Buddahs justified by the Koran's explicit ban on the depiction of the human form...sort of like Christian Fundamentalists espousing the death penalty for fags, God told them to do it.