The Last Bass Outpost

Thanks to everyone for the thoughts and ideas.  I am going with the a mod very similar to what Barklessdog did using the pit bull as a second pickup (it just arrived).   Even going with white although i am matching the aged white of my 61 SG standard.  I am going to make a ebony fingerboard with the trapeziod inlays and a black ebony headpiece for the Slot head.   I also will be altering a Hipshot bridge so I can incorporate a string mute with it.  It is my desire to stay as true to the EB spirit as possible and not produce a desecration. A homage if you will.  The original was in horrific shape.

It is going to take a while to get it all finished.  I hope I am up for it!

Here is pic of the current status.   I hand carved the facets based upon those of my 61 SG standard.  I liked the faceted look more that the slab look of the original body.

Barklessdog:  May I ask where you got the black pickup ring for the Pit Bull?

Quote from: ramone57 on October 05, 2011, 03:43:08 AM
recently I've been favoring tone postion 1.  cuts throught nicely, quite clear.  iirc, Les called it the P bass setting.
yours is a very clean specimen, Old Guy, very nice!

As is yours Ramone57.  I read an interview with Les Paul where he cited one of the positions was to mimic the P Base but nowhere was it stated what that position was.  This is the first time I have received a confirmation of that.  I assume it also included setting the bass to "in phase".

The one problem I have with the bass is that I am picking up a great deal of Clancking when I fret the strings.  I even went to nylon wraps to tone it down which it did but I don't like the sound of them as much.  I would love to go back to round wounds but the clanking even becomes more pronounced.  Have you had any issues like that?

Actually, the first one is heavily discounted. He must have had a momentary lapse and decided to give the world a bit of a price break.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-ORIGINAL-1966-GIBSON-NON-REVERSE-FIREBIRD-LEFTY-PICKGUARD-LEFT-HANDED-/320769406416?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item4aaf58b5d0

All these years of living and I think I am doing fine.  Then I see a post like that and realize I don't have a pair

Quote from: chromium on October 04, 2011, 10:20:46 AM
I just use an equalizer to cut frequencies at ~30Hz, rolling off anything in the ultra-low bass range (low-shelf EQ).  That was a little trick that someone else here had shared, and it made a huge difference in live sound of those basses.  I've been using SVT cabs, and it seemed like the 10" drivers struggle a bit trying to reproduce all the heavy lows from the mudbucker.  They seem to be able to render the more useful frequencies more effectively when the sub-lows are cut.

Take a peek at schematics for the L6-S, Howard Roberts, (and probably others) with regard to the variable inductor/capacitor filters.  Similar to what they did there, you could use a pot to govern the amount of filtered tone on an EB.  I've never experimented with that, and would enjoy hearing the results of it if you do!

That Triumph (recording) is probably my favorite short scale bass at this point.  They are heavy!  Mine's around 10.5 lbs,  but the weight distribution (all in the body) makes it hang nice while standing and doesn't make the strap gouge into my shoulder.  I can do a 4-hour gig with it and it doesn't bug me.  Bought that bass from a fellow in Texas who got it new in 1973, played it in a band for two years... band broke up, and bass when into the closet.  Its a real time capsule piece! (well, aside from a few dings I've managed to give it  ).  It can be trebly if you want it to be, but I've found that I can dial in everything from the EB-ish boom on up.  There's a really gusty middle-ground that I love and that's how I usually leave it set.

Sorry for the three quick posts - photoshop wouldnt let me shrink these pics enough to get them into one post.  Heres the Triumph.  I be curious to know which setting you find the most useful.  I would like to try it out again live but damn it is heavy!

Quote from: Barklessdog on October 04, 2011, 09:58:35 AM
I remember calling Warmoth a long time asking them if they would build me a mahogany full scale bass neck. The guy belitttled me, saying that mahogany is bad choice for a neck wood & too brittle. Basically saying you mcan't make bass necks out of mahogany. I told them about Gibson doing it for years & he just blew me off. Guy was a total ass, was a "know it all" comic book guy. You meet the same types at our Hobby store.

I have posted the EB3 wiring diagram I am going to try out.  I have no idea of whether or not it will work but it might provide fodder to someone else's efforts.  I was wondering if some of the "mud" came from the point Chromium made above i.e. the distortion that most speakers generate from subsonic out of their range affecting the entire tone.  Thought maybe attenuating them might be helpful.  I don't know what the henry value of the inductor must be or that of the resistors and capacitor to set the appropriate harmonic cut point but I figure I will experiment.  I appreciate the feedback and sense of camaraderie from everyone.  Can't wait to post the finished product a few months from now!

Quote from: Dave W on October 04, 2011, 01:10:53 PM
Yep. I had the same experience with them long ago.

I have to admit my connection to the EB's is ancient and sentimental.  I bought this in 1969 from a pawn shop in Chicago in almost new condition ($95) because I loved how it looked. Never learned to play (read: I tried but I sucked).  I still have it – no idea if it is worth anything.  When I decided to try to learn an instrument again 6 months ago I picked up a mex P bass on recommendation but a few months later I ran across an SG reissue and the rest as they say..................

Like you say the short scale basses are fun to play and the open mikes I sit in on and the band I play in don't seem to have any issues as long as I keep time, outline the progression and show up!  ?

Quote from: chromium on October 03, 2011, 06:52:05 PM
Have to say that I rather enjoy a complete disappointment every now and then  




Don't rule out the mudbucker itself as a source of this classic thump you speak of.  An EQ notch on the massive sub-lows works wonders, and you could always experiment with series(stock)/parallel wiring of the mudbucker's coils.  Parallel mode makes it less of an earth mover, and gives out a nice classic tone.

http://www.hillscloud.com/2011/06/1969-gibson-eb-0-pickup-coil-tap-and-series-parallel-modification/


I loved the tones I got from that EB-0.  Sometimes short and simple is best  

Chromium!  I have printed off several of your topics including your "EB-2 triple by pass" and your "Breaking up is hard to do".  I was intending on doing the split on the mudbucker for the EB-0 and I am in the process of putting together a separate wiring harness for my EB-3 right now that includes your bypass.  You referenced the EQ notch and I searched on it but could not find a reference post. Any direction you could give me would be much appreciated.   I also was wondering whether there was a way to add a potentiometer to the inductor circuit so as to be able to attenuate the bass bleed at the lower frequencies.  I posted a schematic elsewhere but got no comments as to whether or not the design was viable.  I am just starting to get my arms around all of the "black magic" of analog circuits.  I have a whole lot to learn about it but the subject is incredibly interesting and engaging.  You and Barklessdog have had a major influence thus far in the way I am approaching this project.

Final question:  I see you have a recording bass in your photo - About a month ago I got a lead on a pristine 76 for next to nothing way up in Wyoming which I bought.  It is heavier than a broken heart and much more treble than I thought it would be.  What is your opinion of it as a player?

Quote from: Dave W on October 03, 2011, 09:32:08 PM
I'd guess you talked to Dave Wintz, owner of Robin Guitars, who handle Rio Grande. I can imagine Dave saying that.

I believe the pickups were designed by Bart Wittrock of Rockin' Robin Guitars (retail store).

Whoever you talked to, maybe John ought to send him some sound clips.

I didn't get his name.  I called the number on the website after I found that the local dealers in Colorado were defunct.  The first time I got a recorded message.  The second time I got him live as he was on his way to pick up his daughter.  As I say he was very direct.  Called the mudbuckers "Hooters" and felt the EB0 was useless except for a beginners bass as in 12 year old.  He said it was so bad I could never use it as a player no matter what mods I did to it including adding the Pitbull.  He strongly recommended I sell it for a couple of hundred and get a real bass (as in full scale) or put it on the wall as a decoration.  He said even the cheap imitation fender copies would serve me better.  It was a fairly firm lecture and I was bemused at how strident he was.  But he wasn't intentionally being insulting.  He was truly trying to direct me based on his beliefs.  I don't want to mis-characterize that.  It was his being honest to his beliefs and sincere in presenting them.

Quote from: Barklessdog on October 02, 2011, 02:16:35 PM
Definitely gives you old thump. It's also a very versatile set up, blending the two pickups & the split coil option & where you play on the strings. Wiring the Big D was easy with one wire going to the pot & the other to the jack. I must warn you however, that with the BigD it gives you noise & pops switching between settings & also has large volume drops / increases. It is also not a true choke varitone but a series of capacitors. Still I really like using it.

Wow! I just had an interesting exchange.  Called Rio Grande to order the Pitbull and the owner was absolutely adamant that using his pickups in an EB anything was a complete waste of time.  Said it was true of any short scale bass.  They had no useful resonance, could not produce a useful consistent tone and would ultimately be a complete disappointment.   He also felt the mudbucker was useless in the neck position on any guitar.  I must say I always enjoy talking with someone with very decisive opinions even if I ultimately decide to stay the course in spite of them. I have some extensive ideas about how to wire it in so am going to proceed and order the Pitbull.  I will let you know how the finished product turns out (ps  he doesnt feel the PitBull should be employed in the Traditional P base location - he envisions it as a bridge pick up)

Quote from: eb2 on October 02, 2011, 09:33:46 PM
If you want a late 70s period authentic mod, stick a DiMarzio p-bass pup (cream colored) about where the cover/rest/useless metal thing sat in the middle. Do the rout with a hammer and a flat-head screwdriver, and pop a hole in it for a mini-toggle to series/parallel the p pup.  Then stick Schallers on it, and a Kiss sticker.  ROCK N ROLL!

Seriously, I have no idea for best placement, as they never sound that great on these.  You maybe have to raise the action and slide it around before routing, while hooked into and amp. Your ears will know.

No no no this is all wrong, all wrong;

1. Everybody knows you use a CHISEL to make the incisions!  You only use the flat-head to dig out the wood AFTER making the incisions with the chisel.
2.That "useless metal thing" you refer to is absolutely necessary as a training device.  It prevents you from playing at the bridge position which produces a horrible tone. I can personally attest to this.
3. DiMarzio pick ups?!?! Are you kidding me? Aren't they members of the mob?  Wait....they are sponsors aren't they...... Did I say mob?  I meant sob.  The pick ups produce such a beautiful glorious tone they make you sob.  I love them.
4. The Kiss thing is already handled.  My girlfriend is putting one on the top of the guitar with her black indelible lipstick.  I dunno, a little more artsy and sophisticated than some poster.  Says something.

Just so you know; Ya aint foolin anyone.  This is the Luther's section and everyone here knows that the devil is in the details!

Quote from: Dave W on October 02, 2011, 02:21:43 PM
P placement has varied a tiny bit in the years before CNC-routed bodies. If you place the center line at 85% of the scale length, you'll be close enough. But don't kid yourself. No matter where you put it, you can't really get a P sound from a short scale mahogany bass.

To get a P-ish sound and enough punch to suit you, the RG Pitbull might be a good option, just be aware that it's not a split-coil P. It's the equivalent of two '51-style single coils wired as a humbucker.

I can see that the p base pick up idea just isn't going to work. But I am fine with that as it looks like I can get some of the P-ish elements into the tone through other means.  It looks like its the Pitbull but I still am trying to get some idea of what a second mudbucker in the bridge position might sound like.  There are alot of those around.  Question: would you recommend the traditional P location for the PitBull?

Quote from: Grog on October 02, 2011, 03:58:33 PM
Then there's always the Grabber sliding pickup for people that like different sounds on different days, then your "Sweet Spot" can move around............

http://www.flyguitars.com/graphics/1976-Grabber-electronics3.jpg

I went over to Fly Guitar and listened to the sound samples.  I cant say too much about how to make the aesthetics work but the difference in tone between the two positions was pretty wild.  The Grabber.  I am going to have to see one of those first hand.

Quote from: Chris P. on October 02, 2011, 01:10:54 PM
I love my SG Reissue Bass. Lots of lows for ballads and the bridge pickup doesn't sound like a P, but it's perfect if I need a P-ish sound in a song. Of course a short scale, set neck, magohangy bass will never sound exactly as a Fender.

Over on the Gibson forum most of the discussion seems to favor the SG reissue over the original EB because of the flexibility you mention.  I have an EB3 in great condition so I did not want to alter it.  The EBO that I ended up getting is in truly bad shape so I am looking forward to the experiment without any guilt.

Quote from: dadagoboi on October 02, 2011, 07:42:45 AM
IMO Seymour Duncan Antiquity II has a very authentic '62 P Bass sound at a reasonable price.

As far as the location, the 'sweet spot' on an EBO would be 15/17 of the distance from the equivalent spot of the PBass location.  The centerline of the pickup is approximately 11.75 inches from the 12th fret on a Squier P I just checked.  You can do the math.

You ARE going to have a volume imbalance problem between the mudbucker and the P Bass pup.  Also you may have to experiment with pots, Gibson uses 500K and SD/Fender uses 250k.

Good luck!

Thanks for the help - I will use those calculations to double check what I have. I am going to have a look at those Duncan's too.  I was aware of the problems that the imbalance between pickups would create.  I found a post from a guy in Sweden who added a true mudbucker to his p base and encountered that problem.  He solved it by building a Varitone/Blend pot of sorts for the p base pickup with capacitors of different values.  He posted sound samples of his results which were impressive.  I can dig it out and post the link if anyone is interested.

Quote from: Barklessdog on October 02, 2011, 06:53:48 AM
Welcome-
I did something similar using a RioGrande PitBull pickup which is essentially a super hot P bass pickup in a humbucker cover (Thats what RioGrande told me)

It keeps the Gibson Vibe  as many people cringe at a P bass pickup routed in an EB-0, but it is your bass & you can do whatever you like.

I located the Pitbull as far forward without having to cut the pick guard.







it sounds great & offers single coil mode, which I used a push pull pot . You want a high output pickup to go with the Mudbucker. Mine works great together & the bass really has a Billy Sheehan tone that really growls. If you want low action Shaller & Hipshot make replacement bridges for them. I also used lightweight Sperzel locking tuners & a Big D Varitone switch

OOOOO yeaaah.   I have seen your bass before in a post on adding a pick up.  I booked marked that post, your website, the rio grande website, the big D website and read them all extensively.  Your results were impressive, beautiful and it is my number one option right now. I am glad you popped in because it was a older post and I was hesitant to pm you.  Two questions I would really like to ask;  1. Did the rio grande give you a little of that "thump" I referenced?  1. How did you wire in the Big D varitone? (Already have the Hipshot in hand, but it is a slot head so I don't know what I can do about the tuners).  I also ordered a brass nut from these Guys.  Don't know if it will impact things much but I thought it was worth a try.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SLOTTED-BRASS-NUT-SBC-Concept-Bass-Guitar-Gibson-EB-/180680472556?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2a116537ec#ht_579wt_1135