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Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: godofthunder on October 27, 2014, 06:54:47 AM

Title: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: godofthunder on October 27, 2014, 06:54:47 AM: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ? I had a lengthy talk with the HOGs Gibson rep and I have been bumped up the chain. I can't make any promises nothing is written in stone but I'd like to see a return of nickle hardware, 60's pickups, the big headstock, Kluson tuners and a two piece bridge (there is a possibility the Badbird could be used). Of course the subject of price came up I thought a list price of 5k would be palatable maybe street out around $3,500 the rep agreed that was realistic. I would also like to see the return of the Thunderbird II. Speak up guys! If we get enough momentum I will send them a link to this forum.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: 4stringer77 on October 27, 2014, 07:30:20 AM: I've been barking up that tree for a while now. Maybe start a facebook page called We demand Gibson Vintage Original Specification basses. If enough of the kiddies give it a thumbs up that would be a good show of public interest.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: gearHed289 on October 27, 2014, 08:17:38 AM: I just don't think enough people would really give a crap about 60s spec vs what they already offer, let alone even know the difference. I'm sure their marketing wizards could pump up the hype, but again, I don't know how much return on investment there would be. Plus, for what they'd end up charging, you're getting close to being able to buy a real one. And, as many here have done, you can always "chrome out" a new one to get close to the look, or mod a Bach, etc. That's my POV.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: TBird1958 on October 27, 2014, 10:02:12 AM: Gabba Gabba Gimme TB II !!!!!

Inverness Green with CHROME
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Bionic-Joe on October 27, 2014, 10:08:48 AM: Reverse T Bird II in Polaris white!!!!!
Non Reverse T Bird II in Inverness Green!!!

Damn...I always said that if Gibson made the Basses exactly like the 1960's ones, who would need an old one??? This is where Fender Kicks Gibson's ass...
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: veebass on October 27, 2014, 12:02:42 PM: I would find it very tempting, particularly in a range of nice colours and in II and IV formats. Some of my Fenders and Rics would go on the market. Hopefully some would make it to Australia.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on October 27, 2014, 12:06:46 PM: I would participate not because I consider it a sensible idea - it isn't and you all know that -, but out of sheer international solidarity!

(http://files.g4tv.com/ImageDb3/172239_S/Che-Guevara--Lionhead-Studios--Teaser-Time.jpg)
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: TBird1958 on October 27, 2014, 01:08:24 PM: Accurate historic guitars sell well, it's an opportunity to make money, supposedly what Gibson is in business for (esp with Henry J at the helm), they could run 400 and sell every one.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Highlander on October 27, 2014, 02:23:55 PM: But not accurate as in neck-snap...!

Beautiful idea... make it so...

If I could afford one... Inverness Green TII, as that'll be my local city next year...
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Aussie Mark on October 27, 2014, 02:56:02 PM: A TB II in custom colours and with nickel would be attractive, whether it be rev or NR. A 60's spec TB IV in burst would not sell many units in my opinion, whether nickel or not, because as far as the general market is concerned it would be just another TB.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Pudgychef on October 27, 2014, 08:59:58 PM: TB II would be a must have for me! Cheers for green or Pelham Blue with CHROME!
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: TBird1958 on October 27, 2014, 10:55:24 PM: Welcome Pudgychef!
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: amptech on October 28, 2014, 02:19:17 AM: Ok, I'd love to see both T-birds as well as (or even more so) '61 - '65 EB3's, accurate reissues as said before - same neck/body joints etc.

For custom colours, well that would be nice - but not those 'one thin layer in a hurry' metallic paint jobs, please! I want nitro on grain filled mahogany, and dont be skippy on the clear gloss!!
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: drbassman on October 28, 2014, 07:44:22 AM: I'd bite on an true NR reissue. Count me in.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: clankenstein on October 28, 2014, 12:11:38 PM: if they managed to get the pickups right they may sell a few because of the sound .
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Denis on October 28, 2014, 12:36:29 PM: I would go for this except for the fact that $3500 for a bass is way out of my price range. So I would support it wholeheartedly knowing I couldn't get one.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Dave W on October 28, 2014, 07:55:39 PM: Quote from: Aussie Mark on October 27, 2014, 02:56:02 PM
A TB II in custom colours and with nickel would be attractive, whether it be rev or NR. A 60's spec TB IV in burst would not sell many units in my opinion, whether nickel or not, because as far as the general market is concerned it would be just another TB.

Agreed. Even if it were only offered in one color, it would need to be other than sunburst.

I can't see Gibson doing another NR, though.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on October 29, 2014, 04:58:07 AM: That wasn't a smash seller to put it mildly. I always said those things are ugly ducklings elevated to cult status via nostalgy impairing eyesight. :P
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: the mojo hobo on October 29, 2014, 06:42:34 AM: I may have a penchant for quirkiness, all mt birds are NR. I pre-ordered one of the 2013 models when I first heard about them here. When it arrived I was very disappointed. The 3 point and black hardware didn't bother me, the thick body and neck did though. The smaller headstock I could live with, but why paint it black on the blue birds?

I am not confident that Gibson could do a NR better that Bach did on the second series, but after that their bodies got thicker too. What's up with that?

There is only one bass I regret selling and that is the blue Bach that I sold to make room for the Gibson, which I gigged exactly one time.

Last weekend while trying to decide which bass to play I plucked them all unplugged. The 60's NR sang like none of the rest. Maybe there is something in the wood.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: amptech on October 29, 2014, 06:54:18 AM: Quote from: uwe on October 29, 2014, 04:58:07 AM
I always said those things are ugly ducklings elevated to cult status via nostalgy impairing eyesight. :P

Great, let's settle for that EB3 reissue then! With an optional polaris white or pelham blue finnish!
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on October 29, 2014, 07:29:21 AM: My old Birds sing more than the new stuff too if you play them unplugged. But the question of course is: No one knows how a modern day TBird will sound in, say, thirty years from now. There is nothing indicating that they will age less well than the old stuff.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: gearHed289 on October 29, 2014, 09:08:16 AM: I'm happy with my 90s non-rev, even if it is shaped a little different than a 60s one. ;)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1604620_10202009589419820_1726098445_n.jpg?oh=f49d853328cd59e85a01cdcf73d3ffef&oe=54EC82D9&__gda__=1424872963_4e4abd3a804043f1e4076b492caa5b1a)
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: planetgaffnet on October 29, 2014, 01:35:01 PM: Quote from: Denis on October 28, 2014, 12:36:29 PM
I would go for this except for the fact that $3500 for a bass is way out of my price range. So I would support it wholeheartedly knowing I couldn't get one.

I think this more or less sums up my thoughts. On this side of the pond, a $3.5K bass would likely turn into a £3.5K bass, which in turn becomes a $5.6K bass.
P
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: FrankieTbird on October 29, 2014, 06:46:53 PM: If I didn't already have a '64, I'd be very interested. And like others have said, it would have to be a single-pickup for me to even give it a 2nd look. Also, after seeing the 2015 lineup, I'm pretty turned off to present and future Gibsons. I'll stick with my old junk. >:(
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: mc2NY on October 29, 2014, 06:49:05 PM: They would manage to f*** it up in some way.

Gibson would either cheap out on the hardware....or shove black plastic pickups in it...or the whole run would be one crappy finish....or the wrong tuners or bridge...or some goofy, ugly "anniversary" logo or hot stamp....or poly finish.

It would be something that made it not a true reproduction of a 1964.

Plus, they'd make five times as many crappy repros as there were original 63-65's made.

IMO....Gibson should just tell their Custom Shop to take orders, for a short period, for exact copies from anyone wanting one, in ANY ORIGINAL 1964 FINISH.....or leave it be.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on October 30, 2014, 05:11:55 AM: None of the Custom Shop TBirds I have seen ever went back to 60ies specs. The one exception is Phil Jones' Korinabird he built from a discarded Francis Buchholz project. But that was more a love child of his (he built it for himself) rather than regular CS fare.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Dave W on October 30, 2014, 07:16:23 PM: The custom shop idea would never work. For starters, it would put the price out of reach. And you'd get way too many requests for different options that would push the price even higher.

Gibson can do it the right way if they want to, they've done it with enough historic guitar models.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Lightyear on October 30, 2014, 07:39:14 PM: The hardest hurdle would be to source the two point bridge and pickups. A good industrial designer could set the the damn thing up for CNC work is less than a half day. It's really too damned easy to do :-[
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: slinkp on October 30, 2014, 08:34:22 PM: we know where they can get nice-sounding chrome pickups and two-point bridges... :)
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Bionic-Joe on October 31, 2014, 05:35:23 AM: Shoot....Tom Petersson told me that he once met and sat down with the Gibson reps trying to get them to do that....they said no.
It's NOT that difficult to do this... they make all kinds of Les Pauls and other guitars....WHY NOT a 1960's ACCURATE Thunderbird???? I mean.. Fender makes 98% exact duplicate vintage basses....the only drawback is the celluloid pickguard and the number of gears on the tuning keys...
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: the mojo hobo on October 31, 2014, 08:08:35 AM: Well there would be the warranty issues when the headstocks started breaking.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on October 31, 2014, 08:13:40 AM: I'm also adamant that the two piece bridge be faithfully positioned so the bass intonates flat. Small details count. Everything just right which in this case of course means wrong! :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Denis on October 31, 2014, 10:49:34 AM: Quote from: the mojo hobo on October 31, 2014, 08:08:35 AM
Well there would be the warranty issues when the headstocks started breaking.

I'd thought about that aspect, too. It would happen and then Gibson's reputation would slide even more, especially in the bass category.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Bionic-Joe on October 31, 2014, 01:39:27 PM: Then they need to let everyone know that this is a fragile worl of art and if not treated as such it will break. And I agree with Uwe....it should be properly intonated when Installed. It's not rocket science to do this...t
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: mc2NY on October 31, 2014, 01:44:48 PM: Well.....exact vintage spec EXCEPT put the damn bridge posts in the right spot so it intonated.

....and maybe a couple graphite rods burried inside the neck in the nut area to lessen the chance of snapped necks.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Lightyear on October 31, 2014, 03:40:05 PM: Quote from: the mojo hobo on October 31, 2014, 08:08:35 AM
Well there would be the warranty issues when the headstocks started breaking.

Even that could be mitigated to a certain degree. Less angle and, perhaps, make the head stock larger but not quite as large as the originals - add a volute even.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Denis on November 01, 2014, 04:39:49 AM: Sounds like we're almost back to the one Gibson DID make in 2012!
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: the mojo hobo on November 01, 2014, 05:27:44 AM: Which I would be happy with if it wasn't so damn heavy.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Lightyear on November 01, 2014, 08:18:02 AM: Quote from: Denis on November 01, 2014, 04:39:49 AM
Sounds like we're almost back to the one Gibson DID make in 2012!

Not quite. How much break angle is needed for good contact on the nut anyway? Look at how little is needed for the E and A on Fender basses with the D and G gaining minimal angle from the added piece of hardware. I'm thinking three or four degrees would be plenty instead of, what, eleven?. As for the size, I agree, the modern headstock is too small and I think that splitting the difference between the new and old would be a half decent compromise.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: gearHed289 on November 01, 2014, 09:18:40 AM: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: FrankieTbird on November 01, 2014, 09:51:07 AM: Quote from: the mojo hobo on October 31, 2014, 08:08:35 AM
Well there would be the warranty issues when the headstocks started breaking.

Warranty doesn't cover busted necks.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Lightyear on November 01, 2014, 05:46:19 PM: Quote from: gearHed289 on November 01, 2014, 09:18:40 AM
:popcorn:
:popcorn: Indeed! We're all just pissing up a rope anyway - if Gibson were to build it they'd screw it up like everything else ;D
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: TNF on November 01, 2014, 10:33:24 PM: Meh. I'm happy with my reissue NR TBird, warts and all. Eventually I will probably try to chrome it out, but I still love it. I'd never be able to afford one of the originals. Besides, it's featherweight compared to my RD Artist!
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: lowend1 on November 02, 2014, 09:06:01 AM: Quote from: uwe on October 30, 2014, 05:11:55 AM
None of the Custom Shop TBirds I have seen ever went back to 60ies specs. The one exception is Phil Jones' Korinabird he built from a discarded Francis Buchholz project. But that was more a love child of his (he built it for himself) rather than regular CS fare.

The BuchholzBird still remains my dream bass. Since there is only the one, it is unlikely that I will ever stumble across one in a pawnshop with no money in my pocket. That alone is a great stress reliever.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on November 03, 2014, 05:17:59 AM: "BuchholzBird" :mrgreen: Interestingly enough his name would translate as "Beechwood" in English. I'm actually seeing him play with Michael Schenker on Friday, he and Hermann Rarebell are in the current line up. Except for a short stint of the Lovedrive tour, Francis and Michael never played in the same Scorpions line up. Francis came from a different branch of the family tree (together with Uli Roth from a trio called Dawn) after Michael had initially left the Scorpions for UFO.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: FrankieTbird on November 03, 2014, 02:50:37 PM: Quote from: uwe on November 03, 2014, 05:17:59 AM
I'm actually seeing him play with Michael Schenker on Friday, he and Hermann Rarebell are in the current line up.

:thumbsup:

Nice! Please be sure to let us know how you liked the show!

:popcorn:
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on November 04, 2014, 06:53:25 AM: It's been a while. Last time I saw him play in a hall/club that small was in 1976 or '77 when ze Scörps were touring their new Virgin Killer album and on the verge of breaking Germany (they were initially more popular in France and the Benelux countries than in Germany). Unshaven, skinny as a rake and with a natural Ripper (I always thought it was a Grabber, but this pic proves me wrong) ...

(http://img.webme.com/pic/o/ottersberg-rockt/scorpions4.jpg)
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: amptech on November 04, 2014, 07:03:44 AM: Cool pic!
Why grab it when you can rip it? Every bassist I thought played a grabber (like me) turned out to be ripper players
when I found out they were not the same instrument.

The only known player I now know for sure did use the grabber, was mr. Simmons - guess he saved a few bucks not buying
the ripper :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on November 04, 2014, 08:35:58 AM: I could never hold them apart either! Gene got his Grabbers just as free from Gibson as his Rippers, but preferred the Grabbers - to Gibson's chagrin - for their nastier sound and the fresher attack.

That Ripper didn't last long with Francis either, I believe he only used it on that 1976 tour and then reverted back to P-Basses (he used TBirds then and now and became a Warwickster in the end, call it a German fate!). In 1976, he would have probably been happier with a Grabber (if you consider the Ripper to be more in the Jazz Bass mold and the Grabber more a poor man's P-Bass). I saw him with the Ripper and his sound was fine though nothing he couldn't have done with a Jazz Bass. Back then he was still a much more melodic and busy player. When the Scorps hit the arenas and stadiums, he reduced his bass playing to a functional and sparse minimum.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: planetgaffnet on November 05, 2014, 03:00:14 AM: Quote from: amptech on November 04, 2014, 07:03:44 AM
The only known player I now know for sure did use the grabber, was mr. Simmons - guess he saved a few bucks not buying
the ripper :mrgreen:

I think you'll find that Gibson were throwing guitars at Kiss in the 1970s. I read somewhere that Ace Frehley would take delivery of a dozen Les Pauls, pick out the best/better ones and sell the rest. I very much doubt Gene Simmons had his pocket felt for any of the Grabbers/Rippers that he used.
P
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on November 05, 2014, 06:57:28 AM: Given the exposure Kiss had as a popular concert draw (they were selling out arenas long before anybody bought their records), I believe Gibson cut a good advertisement deal. "Kiss plays Gibson Guitars" was on every album sleeve and dutifully they did play a wide array of Gibson guitars live in their early days: Firebirds, Flying Vs, Marauders, Les Pauls, Grabbers, Rippers and EBs. Even I noticed at the time (this was before I played bass) that Kiss was a "Gibson-Band".

Coincidentally I am listening to Kiss - Alive in the car right now and marvel after all these years how rough and abrasive they sounded with then top-of-the-line Gibson instruments, I mean you really have to work at it hard to make a Les Paul NOT SING when you solo! :mrgreen: Or make a Firebird sound like a broken Mosrite when you play rhythm. It's good that they did not decide to become a Southern Rock band, making an instrument sound sweet was certainly beyond them, I fear they would have had a hard time emulating Jessica. :rimshot: They sure were a garage band (with make-up) at the time.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: planetgaffnet on November 05, 2014, 03:32:00 PM: Uwe...there's a very interesting documentary about Alive! here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTDLwoeRBpU

- it's pretty much a studio album with an awful lot of overdubbed cheering. (I actually like the rhythm guitar tone BTW...I always have.)

They simply weren't good enough [live] to put out an unfettered live album; I mean fine, it's OK to jump around, spit blood/fire and put on a great visual show, but musically they weren't up to the task in hand. The handful of bootlegs I've heard from that period seem to support that.
P
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on November 06, 2014, 03:56:27 AM: I didn't think it was a live album! Haven't seen the above vid yet, but my knowledge was that it was basically recorded at soundchecks to get that arena sound plus later studio overdubs and of course the crowd noise. Even when it came out, people had doubts, I remember a NME scribe who wrote "At the Kiss concerts I saw, Frehley played nowhere near as well as you hear him on Alive". Not that I would describe his trademark stop-start-st(r)utter soloing as anything near "well", but it is at least rhythmically idiosyncratic.

But the pantheon of great rock "live" albums is filled to the brim with albums that weren't really live. Kiss were neither the first nor the last.

Now I have to watch that vid!
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: slinkp on November 06, 2014, 08:00:53 AM: Yep. I remember being in denial right here on this very forum a couple years ago about Live at Leeds. But it turns out to be pretty well documented that there are at least partial vocal overdubs and bass overdubs on at least some songs. I got over caring about it :)

I still remember this bit of liner notes from Peter Gabriel Plays Live, which I listened to obsessively in my teen years:

"Although this recording was compiled from four concerts in the mid-west of the United States, some additional recording took place not a thousand miles away from the home of the artist. The generic term of this process is "cheating." Care has been taken to keep the essence of the gigs intact including "human imperfection."' The Producers."
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: gearHed289 on November 06, 2014, 09:59:48 AM: Thanks for the PG quote. I always think about that when these types of discussions come up. It is what it is. A concert goes by in real time, and is immediately gone forever. An album OTOH is here for eternity, and will be listened to again and again. I don't mind some fixes. According to most accounts, Peter Criss' drums are completely live, and the majority of everything else was re-done in the studio. Which is a shame because Gene's live tone was so much better. And to their credit, they weren't all THAT bad live. Plenty of bootleg vids out there to prove it. Cobo Arena, Jan 1976 is a good one. I like Paul's tone just for the fact that it works good against Ace. Kinda crap on its own, but for his Keef thing against Ace's power chords, it was good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij2Uxh1xkUI
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on November 06, 2014, 11:00:15 AM: Saw it now, they are at least honest about it, especially Gene ("At that time, live, I made tons of mistakes."). But his best quip is at 11:22 when talking about the Nothing to Lose lyric ... "But(t?) what poetry!".

Whether they invented the live double album is another matter though. I remember the early and mid-seventies as the age of the live double album. Grand Funk's Live Album, Humble Pie's Rockin' the Fillmore, DP's Made in Japan, Allman Brothers' Live at Fillmore Eat, Rare Earth's In Concert, Uriah Heep's Live '73, ELP's Welcome Back my Friends to the Show That Never Ends and Yes' Yessongs were all double (or more) albums, million sellers and pretty much in every household, years before Kiss Alive. Matter of fact back then having a live album in a gatefold sleeve out was considered de rigueur if you were worth your salt as a live band. Kiss with their Alive album weren't so much leading the way but, in a last ditch effort to make it, hopping the bandwagon.

I never thought that Kiss Alive sounded that much like a live experience ... I think they got the big arena sound down nicely, but the performance didn't quite have the frantic intensity you might expect with an act like Kiss. Kiss bootlegs from the era sound, bum notes aside, more frantic and "falling over one another in excitement". Alive sounded not so much of the moment, but a bit calculated. Which we now know from the vid it was! :mrgreen: Doesn't matter, it put them on the map and is a fun album to hear, especially Peter's (over-)phased drum solo! I sure liked my copy (with the SS-runes on Peter's kick drum airbrushed out as was mandatory in Germany where showing Nazi insignia outside of their historical context is a criminal offense). No wonder I couldn't recognize that Gene played a Grabber and not a Ripper! :mrgreen: Us poor Krauts also didn't get the booklet, probably because it had the SS-runes all over it.

German cover as it came out in 75:

(http://www.popsike.com/pix/20060609/4893510571.jpg)

German cover in later years, Kiss had money to pay for proper photo doctoring:

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0600753103654.jpg)

US cover:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/48/Kiss_alive_album_cover.jpg)
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: OldManC on November 06, 2014, 11:06:15 AM: My inner 15 year old is coming out here, but I think it's called for...

While I am certainly aware that Alive was cleaned up considerably, the idea that KISS couldn't deliver the goods live simply not true. Plenty of bootlegs from the Wildwood, Cleveland, and Davenport shows (the ones Alive was actually taken from) don't sound all that different from the album. And considering the energy they exuded on stage in that era, bum notes are far less prevalent than one might expect, especially if you bought the spin that they couldn't play. Eddie Kramer's story has gone back and forth over the years as to how much work was done, but unless someone went in and also cleaned up all these bootlegs too (but made sure not to make them too perfect), I don't buy that Alive is a studio album with the audience dubbed in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIlXZjgqsfU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdRyu0ketcQ

And for your KISS nerd pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7UOW6J0i1I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgKz1lxqnuI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yvb6RTQ44o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSxdCwLz9pQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dld_oT5N2w
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Denis on November 06, 2014, 11:14:27 AM: Hmm, a hint might have been the maple fingerboard and the black body. On the Ripper I think that combination wasn't available normally (although Greg Lake had one like that).

Shame about the retreating "SS" markings. Must have been a superior Russian force causing the reversal. :mrgreen:

Quote from: uwe on November 06, 2014, 11:00:15 AM
Saw it now, they are at least honest about it, especially Gene ("At that time, live, I made tons of mistakes."). But his best quip is at 11:22 when talking about the Nothing to Lose lyric ... "But(t?) what poetry!".

Whether they invented the live double album is another matter though. I remember the early and mid-seventies as the age of the live double album. Grand Funk's Live Album, Humble Pie's Rockin' the Fillmore, DP's Made in Japan, Allman Brothers' Live at Fillmore Eat, Rare Earth's In Concert, Uriah Heep's Live '73, ELP's Welcome Back my Friends to the Show That Never Ends and Yes' Yessongs were all double (or more) albums, million sellers and pretty much in every household, years before Kiss Alive. Matter of fact back then having a live album in a gatefold sleeve out was considered de rigueur if you were worth your salt as a live band. Kiss with their Alive album weren't so much leading the way but, in a last ditch effort to make it, hopping the bandwagon.

I never thought that Kiss Alive sounded that much like a live experience ... I think they got the big arena sound down nicely, but the performance didn't quite have the frantic intensity you might expect with an act like Kiss. Kiss bootlegs from the era sound, bum notes aside, more frantic and "falling over one another in excitement". Alive sounded not so much of the moment, but a bit calculated. Which we now know from the vid it was! :mrgreen: Doesn't matter, it put them on the map and is a fun album to hear, especially Peter's (over-)phased drum solo! I sure liked my copy (with the SS-runes on Peter's kick drum airbrushed out as was mandatory in Germany where showing Nazi insignia outside of their historical context is a criminal offense). No wonder I couldn't recognize that Gene played a Grabber and not a Ripper! :mrgreen: Us poor Krauts also didn't get the booklet, probably because it had the SS-runes all over it.

German cover as it came out in 75:

(http://www.popsike.com/pix/20060609/4893510571.jpg)

German cover in later years, Kiss had money to pay for proper photo doctoring:

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0600753103654.jpg)

US cover:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/48/Kiss_alive_album_cover.jpg)
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on November 06, 2014, 11:29:34 AM: I'd say the really live stuff sounds less tight than the Alive! recording, but I don't hear a huge sonic difference. Alive! certainly caught them how they probably sounded on a good night. As for the "couldn't play-aspect": Both Stanley and Simmons had been playing since their teens in various bands and were in their early or mid-twenties when Alive! was recorded with hundreds of gigs as Kiss on their back, I'm sure they could do their set in their sleep especially as they had little issue replicating their rather simple studio arrangements live. It wasn't exactly a Gentle Giant, Kansas or Jethro Tull concert you know and Bob (Ezrin) hadn't yet been around with them either! :mrgreen:

I remember being stunned when I first heard Destroyer on a tape - it sounded nothing like the Kiss I knew from Alive! and Dressed to Kill, they all of the sudden sounded as good as the Alice Cooper Band, dramatic cinemascope sound, sound effects, keyboards, violins, kids choirs and even harmony guitars! And then I later on saw the sleeve and read Bob Ezrin's familiar name ...
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on November 06, 2014, 11:41:21 AM: "Shame about the retreating "SS" markings. Must have been a superior Russian force causing the reversal."

Their logo actually harmed them initially in Germany. It took a while to get over the "that Nazi-make-up-band dressed in black with the SS-sign"-image. Teen mags had articles along the lines of "Are Kiss really Nazis?!". It bugged me too. I only bought a Kiss record again after I had found out about the insignia (on the first Kiss albums I bought, the SS-runes had been censored off and I had not yet seen uncensored pictures of them) when I read about Paul's and Gene's jewish backgrounds. To this day they are not allowed to use the logo here. No idea how Gene ever explained it to his Auschwitz-survivor mom either. Or maybe her eyesight was compassionate with her.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: Denis on November 06, 2014, 12:04:12 PM: I completely believe that. Mostly the trouble with KISS I remember (I saw them in December, 1976) was that lots of people thought "KISS" meant "Knights In Satan's Service". Heh.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: the mojo hobo on November 06, 2014, 08:11:13 PM: I love this place. Where else can you go from discussing possibilities of a real 60's spec Thunderbird to Kiss and WWII in the first four pages of the thread?
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: gearHed289 on November 06, 2014, 09:06:19 PM: There's a Thunderbird in this one. 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GscQxZQBF0
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: amptech on November 07, 2014, 02:01:24 AM: Quote from: Denis on November 06, 2014, 12:04:12 PM
I completely believe that. Mostly the trouble with KISS I remember (I saw them in December, 1976) was that lots of people thought "KISS" meant "Knights In Satan's Service". Heh.

I also listened a lot to We Are Satan's People and Anti Christ/Death to Christ.
Title: Re: Any interest in a 60's spec Thunderbird ?
Post by: uwe on November 07, 2014, 07:00:27 AM: Quote from: gearHed289 on November 06, 2014, 09:06:19 PM
There's a Thunderbird in this one. 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GscQxZQBF0

Great find! Up to now I only knew of him using one in the Phantom debacle.

I wonder if Paul yelled liked that on his dates with girls too? In that case, may be his ear wasn't to blame after all. :mrgreen: