The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: drbassman on September 18, 2014, 05:00:37 AM
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So, I know some of you have had or have one. Tell me what you think of them. The chat on Talkbass is pretty positive. What do you folks think???
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I love mine but I haven't gigged it in years. Will be selling soon, let me know if you're interested.
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If you're in a Blues Traveler or Soundgarden cover band, they're a necessary part of that bass sound, but even with a better-suited 12AU7 driver swapped for the too-gainy 12AX7, the bottom is flubby and almost impossible to get to punch. If you've ever had to use a Fender tube guitar amp for bass- that's their sound.
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Oh, not exactly what I'm looking for. Doesn't anyone make a tube amp with a tighter bassy bottom end?
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What about the Mesa Buster Bass head Psycho? Is that just a lower powered version of the 400+? Is the D180 worth a look or do most of Mesa's tube heads tend towards the same sound?
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If you're in a Blues Traveler or Soundgarden cover band, they're a necessary part of that bass sound, but even with a better-suited 12AU7 driver swapped for the too-gainy 12AX7, the bottom is flubby and almost impossible to get to punch. If you've ever had to use a Fender tube guitar amp for bass- that's their sound.
I can't agree with you there. Mine is much punchier and tighter than any SVT I've ever played, and that's through two Mesa/EV 1x15s. Never flubby.
OTOH the bottom end is not especially bassy compared to the best SS power sections. I don't think you can have it all in a tube head.
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I do have a compressor now that might remedy the low end issue.
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I can't agree with you there. Mine is much punchier and tighter than any SVT I've ever played, and that's through two Mesa/EV 1x15s. Never flubby.
OTOH the bottom end is not especially bassy compared to the best SS power sections. I don't think you can have it all in a tube head.
My other tube bass amps have that 'punch in the gut' factor, the s/s-like low end. I suspect my 400+ could do with a rebias that I don't have time to do right now, so I may not be giving it a fair shake, but I've played several over the years and they all had the same general characteristics. Mesa doesn't make tube bass amps for punch, IMO. (Their s/s hybrid stuff OTOH- is huge in lows) They're all modified Fender Showman tonestacks with undersized power supplies feeding too many tubes. The Buster is basically a half 400+. The D-180 is probably the best sounding bass distortion amp ever and the Bass 400 and 400+ are just slightly tweaked versions of its preamp with bigger power sections. Dave's Mesa EV cabs are where his amps really shine, and back in the day, ALL the Mesa Bass cabinets came with EVM drivers.
That Peavey VB-2 you were asking about earlier is MUCH closer to what it seems to me what you're looking for outside of some very rare and esoteric tube amps. You'd love the Trace VA/VR series as well as the V-type, and the new Fender Super Bassman is supposed to be very good, but I haven't heard one to verify that. The long discontinued Aguilar DB728 is an absolute beast, likewise with the Peavey Classic 400. Any GOOD Hiwatt or Hiwatt clone will have plenty of clean punch as well. The OLD Eden VT300 made by Koch Electronics is also a VERY sweet amp. I have all of those except for the Super Bassman and Hiwatt, but I did have the DR103 that the Georgia Satellites used to record "Keep Your Hands to Yourself" for several years. If you can find one and get it in good running order, the Fender 300PS and 400PS are monsters, but be aware that you have to have THREE 4 ohm cabs for the 400PS and that the 300PS only has a single 8 ohm output. Sunn 2000S's have a great sound all their own, too.
Tube bass amps can do big, tight lows with that wonderful tube compression, but they have to be set up VERY well to do it. Low end requires current, which increases exponentially as frequency drops to maintain output power. That requires two things: a design that supplies enough drive current to its power section- that's why the Fender 300PS and 400PS can have the same modified Showman/Bassman preamp as their lesser powered brothers and be much more punchy- they have a completely different output section drive scheme and a power supply that has the current on tap to do so. The Mesa 400+ is a 225 watt amp on a good day. The dozen 6L6GC's in its output section are capable of 360+ clean watts depending on their quality, but the amp's power supply can't provide them with enough current to do that. The Mesa 400+'s main supply rail runs at around 550 volts on the plate and 300 on the output tube screen grids. An SVT runs around 700 volts on the plates and 550 on the screens. The Trace VR/VA series uses an ultralinear output transformer and puts over 725 volts on the plates AND screens.
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I do have a compressor now that might remedy the low end issue.
Tightening up the lows via split-band compression (what your SMX pedal does) would definitely help matters. If you still have your Prodigy, you may want to try it with the Trace. It wouldn't hurt matters to try both in the instrument and line level inputs. The Trace supplies enough power to drive all of them.
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Oh, not exactly what I'm looking for. Doesn't anyone make a tube amp with a tighter bassy bottom end?
Ever consider an SVT III Pro? I've been loving mine since 1997. It's very close to an original SVT tone-wise, but with a tighter low end. And it weighs 26 pounds. 3 12AX7 preamp tubes, a 12AU7 and another 12AX7 for drivers, and a solid state power section.
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Tightening up the lows via split-band compression (what your SMX pedal does) would definitely help matters. If you still have your Prodigy, you may want to try it with the Trace. It wouldn't hurt matters to try both in the instrument and line level inputs. The Trace supplies enough power to drive all of them.
I did sell the Prodigy to buy some other stuff (Terror and Scout). But will try the Trace out on both those amps, although the Scout has a pretty good EQ graphic equalizer in it already that does put out a very good bottom end.
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Ever consider an SVT III Pro? I've been loving mine since 1997. It's very close to an original SVT tone-wise, but with a tighter low end. And it weighs 26 pounds. 3 12AX7 preamp tubes, a 12AU7 and another 12AX7 for drivers, and a solid state power section.
Well this sounds a little more like what I'm looking for. I am leaning toward hybrids after my all tube experiences. What do the rest of you guys like abut the 3 Pro?
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I've never tried the SVT-3 Pro. My older son has an SVT-4 Pro. I had it at my house for over a year while he was stationed in Korea. Not everyone likes them but I was impressed by how versatile it was.
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I keep waiting for Bill to try a Genz ShuttleMax or Streamliner. Hybrids don't come any better.
But then, Rahock and I have drunk the Kool-Aid on Genz amps.
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I keep waiting for Bill to try a Genz ShuttleMax or Streamliner. Hybrids don't come any better.
But then, Rahock and I have drunk the Kool-Aid on Genz amps.
Is one better than the other?
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Are there any new Genz heads left?
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I would think they are all gone now after the fire sales. I'm wondering if I even need a 3rd. amp. I'm very happy thus far with the Orange and the Scout that's coming is a known entity and I am very pleased with how it performs. Maybe I'll just use those two for a bit and see how things shake out.
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There are used Genz heads around places like TB and Ebay. I confess I haven't owned any other heads than the Shuttles, but they're fantastic and have a tube preamp that adds character. I think from what Bill has said that either a ShuttleMax or Streamliner would fit him.
They do seem to be selling promptly in the $550-$650 range on TB.
ShuttleMax 9.2 thread: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/shuttlemax-9-2.1102360/#post-16373253
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Yeah, I checked eBay, just about the only new Genz Benz listed are the Contour 1x15 combos. One dealer is selling them for $359 which is way below what they originally sold for. Good deal but not what you're looking for.
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I think a bit of patience would turn one up. They seem to be moving through the market yet.
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The Mesa Scout arrives today. We'll see how I feel about my amps after using it at practice on Wednesday.
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But then, Rahock and I have drunk the Kool-Aid on Genz amps.
As have I. So much so that I sold my Sunn 300t with 215 bottom and when the guy came to pick it up I turned it on and was amazed at how good it sounds.
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I've drunk that kool-aid too. Although in fairness, my points of comparison before I got the Shuttle are a long succession of clean sounding solid-state heads*, none of which I miss at all; I probably would've been much happier tone-wise with a big heavy tube amp, but when I was gigging I had neither the money to buy one nor the will to carry it around.
* The two other amps I ever owned with tooooobs were an Eden WT-300 and Eden WT-500, and that single tube in the Eden preamp circuit is not really there for overdrive purposes. I'm not actually sure what purpose it serves! They're really nice clean-sounding heads, but I don't know why it took me so long to figure out I didn't really want a clean-sounding head for my basic sound. The other amps I owned were, in order, Roland Cube 60, Peavey TNT-130, Randall something-or-other, GK 400RB, Eden WT-500, Eden WT-300, Acoustic Image Clarus, Acoustic Image Focus, Thunderfunk 440 (?), Acoustic Image Focus III. Not a dirty-sounding amp in the lot. Well, you could theoretically turn up the gain on the Peavey, but I recall that being pretty horrible. The gain on the Shuttle works great for me.
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I haven't tried to lightweight stuff, but my GBE600 is a fantastic sounding head that seems to give me any sound I am trying to find. I have been abusing an old Ampeg SVT100 for most of this year so the Genz isn't getting the love it deserves, but I still use it and love it.
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Ah...the Genz club emerges from the woodwork here......
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Ah...the Genz club emerges from the woodwork here......
I'm another one. My Streamliner 900 is hidden inside the fake Ampeg head. Sound engineers love the DI in the Streamliner ....
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/mdeayton/Gig%20photos%202014/10669214_10152728850865763_6845048102097196834_o_zps886c7edf.jpg)
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The two amps I ever owned with tooooobs were an Eden WT-300 and Eden WT-500, and that single tube in the Eden preamp circuit is not really there for overdrive purposes. I'm not actually sure what purpose it serves!
I think it was more about marketing than tone.
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Two things: the Orange amp and Trace pedal performed well together tonight. Really nice bass tone and range.
The other surprise was the Mesa Scout amp. It sounded great too! I have come full circle and now realize just how good the Mesa hybrid amps are. Wow does it sound great paired with the two Scout 15" cabs. It's been a long journey but I've just developed a new appreciation for the Scout amp. I thought I wanted the old school tone of a tube amp but the cleaner deep bass of the Scout is right on the money. I feel a little dumb, but I feel good to have arrived at a good tone place at last.
I feel I can use either the Scout or the Terror/pedal and get just what I want. This is such a good place to be at last.
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Good. I know you've been searching for quite a while. Sometimes it just takes patience to find what clicks for you.
OTOH, you don't need an excuse to buy more gear. :)
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I keep waiting for Bill to try a Genz ShuttleMax or Streamliner. Hybrids don't come any better.
But then, Rahock and I have drunk the Kool-Aid on Genz amps.
Agreed. Pass the Kool Aid please :mrgreen:
Rick
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Good. I know you've been searching for quite a while. Sometimes it just takes patience to find what clicks for you.
OTOH, you don't need an excuse to buy more gear. :)
Yeah, it's kind of goofy I ended up right back at the Scout amp, but that's what it takes when you have something in your head and you can't actually compare all of these options side by side. It apparent that Mesa does have some idea what they are doing when they design these things. The Scout amp and those passive radiating cabs are just super together.
I have to say, buying more gear is still an option. ;D I'd like a vintage 15" Ampeg flip top cab for my B-15 amp. So, I'm on the lookout for that! And, a big brother to the Scout is one of the M-Pulse 360 or 600 amps. Might have to have one of those for the collection since they are discontinued.
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I'd like a vintage 15" Ampeg flip top cab for my B-15 amp. So, I'm on the lookout for that!
fliptops.net sell repro cabs. I own one of their B-15E repro cabs, fitted with a Eminence Legend - it's a mightly little thing.
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fliptops.net sell repro cabs. I own one of their B-15E repro cabs, fitted with a Eminence Legend - it's a mightly little thing.
Yeah they are just down the road in buffalo. I've bought parts for my B-12 cab from them. They have great stuff! My cheapo Ampeg PF115 is a hell of a cab for the money. Great tone and super clean sound at high volume. I just have a hankering for an original to go with the amp.
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Agreed. Pass the Kool Aid please :mrgreen:
Rick
We'll get him sooner or later. I think he's getting curious.
Woo hoo hoo, wah ha ha......
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We'll get him sooner or later. I think he's getting curious.
Woo hoo hoo, wah ha ha......
Based on features they are probably somewhat similar to the M Pulses line. You never know....... :)