The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bill's Shop: Projects, Mods & Repairs => Topic started by: amptech on December 12, 2013, 11:59:02 AM
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At last, my first Lo Z project. Mentioned before in Lo Z threads, this is a straight one pickup EB-0 project, and
the ´core´is a nice 1967 body bought naked on ebay recently. It is really a combined project, it all started when I bought
a set of Lo Z pups (4) listed as ´gibson bass recording pickups not working´. It turned out to be guitar (les paul) pickups, but two of them were in perfect working order! The ´strongest´of them read 15dc ohms, but had a broken ear. The other working unit had some epoxy smear underneath. The other two looked perfect, but had open coils. Researched a bit, and found them all to be ex-gibson employee stuff- but the previous owner thought they were all broken and sold them cheap.
It will be fun to install NOS pickups, I´ll be the first to wear the black plastic..
After getting really comfy with EB0/3 basses from the 60´s, I noticed some difficulties playing my Fender P fretless.
This would be a good excuse to buy yet another project, but space is becoming a problem. So i will combine the two projects, I can always refret if I don´t like my LoZ fretless.
Well, the body arrived, and it was not as good looking as it seemed to be on ebay, but it was cheap. On the other hand, unbroken headstock and solid neck/body joint. It was sanded down at some point and clearcoated, seems to be floor laquer painted on with a too big brush. Same with the fretboard, it had a thick smear of laquer, painted over a well used and incredibly dirty piece of rosewood! The frets almost fell of the instrument.
I top mounted the pup on my ´67 EB-3, and spent an evening looking for the sweet spot. My sweet spot, that is,
and it ended up somewhere between the neck pup and the handrest.
So I needed to fill the mudbucker/neck wire routing, and all screwholes. I´m going for my first polaris white gibson, and
for the first time I´m going to follow all necessary steps to get a decent finish..
Here it is:
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/LoZEB-01_zpsce8d5d56.jpg)]
(http://[URL=http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/LoZEB-01_zpsce8d5d56.jpg.html)
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Good luck. I'm sure that'll look and play sweet when done... too bad about your unfortunate choice of pup location though :P
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Good luck. I'm sure that'll look and play sweet when done... too bad about your unfortunate choice of pup location though :P
Thanks. I did think of doing pickguard in the style of the P90 single pup les paul special.
But to challenge myself both on woodworking and finishing, I decided to go non-PG.
If I screw up the wood/finish, I will have to make a PG though.
I am comfy with the pup placement, as I play fingerstyle in the neck area. Think it looks OK too.
Here´s some pics for those who might have interest in such a project (sorry for the large pics):
I always make some plugs when I remove wood. Useful for screwholes.
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/LoZEB-04_zps51e666d2.jpg) (http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/LoZEB-04_zps51e666d2.jpg.html)
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/LoZEB-05_zps625dcd56.jpg) (http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/LoZEB-05_zps625dcd56.jpg.html)It´s gonna have a solid finish, but I´m trying to learn how to ´hide´wood finish repairs :)
And the fretboard laquer:
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/LoZEB-02_zpsd0808e20.jpg) (http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/LoZEB-02_zpsd0808e20.jpg.html)
Repaired the broken ear of the pup with epoxy. I cut an ear off one of the non-working pups..
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/LoZEB-03pickup_zps6b2a20a2.jpg)]
(http://[URL=http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/LoZEB-03pickup_zps6b2a20a2.jpg.html)
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Nice project!
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Good repair job on that pup!
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Very neat...
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Nice project! That'll look, and likely sound great with the lo-Z pickup. I don't know how you guys find these white-covered ones?! (nice score)
With having to plug such a large route for the old pickup, will you have to veneer the front of the bass? or are there ways to prevent the grafts from telegraphing through the new finish?
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Nice project! That'll look, and likely sound great with the lo-Z pickup. I don't know how you guys find these white-covered ones?! (nice score)
The 4 pups i bought were all black. What you see in the first picture is just the ´template ´that Rob kindly dug up for me.
Never even seen a white one other than the pictures here.
[/quote]With having to plug such a large route for the old pickup, will you have to veneer the front of the bass? or are there ways to prevent the grafts from telegraphing through the new finish?
[/quote]
Don´t really know yet, I did plug a hole once (!) on my EB0/6 project - but it´s difficult to hide in a transparent finish.
I did manage to match the colour, but didn´t match the grain, and did´nt use grain filler. It´s level, but not good looking.
I have tried to level all plugs, and match the growing direction of the grain. Got me some grain filler and sanding sealer, we´ll see how it turns out- been reading a lot about finishing lately. It´s already better than what I´ve done before, using the correct sandpaper grades for different woods, never thought of it! When I see the finishes I´ve done now, I just see why they look crappy - have to do it all over:-)
Here she is; routing, plugging and main sanding complete.
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/LoZEB-08_zpsb15c22e4.jpg) (http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/LoZEB-08_zpsb15c22e4.jpg.html)
As i did the routing, It was frightening to see how deep it had to be. There´s gotta be some adjustment space, and there is now solid wood no thicker than in the ctrl. area under the pickup. I wonder how deep it would have to be if i used a bass pickup? The guitar pup is 32mm high.
While I´m at it, here´s a shot of the butt end of the instrument, I´m going to have an XLR out for the Lo Z, and use a transformer to a normal jack - I think it will look best with a normal EB0 ctrl. layout. The two small wood plugs to the right is to stabilize the ´typical input crack ´repair.
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/LoZEB-06_zpsadbee6fe.jpg) (http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/LoZEB-06_zpsadbee6fe.jpg.html)
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Cool! I also have an EB0-body around somewhere.
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Looking Good!
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The XLR out will be a bit of a problem in that the pup output is single-ended and anything with an XLR input is balanced. Depending on the input section there can be a significant level drop (and therefore increased noise when you turn up the gain to compensate). I assume you are not planning to use an XLR plug other then to the transformer/cable you're making, but there is an opportunity to make things better here. Using a simple 1:1 transformer inside the bass (a local surplus store here has them real cheap, they're not super top quality, but this is such a low level application it shouldn't matter much... I actually grabbed one of those to play around with and could send it to you for the cost of shipping - it's about half an inch cubed in size) can balance the output for you. This will do a few things (which may or may not be important or useful to you):
1) provide true universally problem-free Direct Injection without a DI - i.e. input into any mic level device. ... then plug the thing into a vintage Ampex tube preamp and get yer James Jamerson on (I do this with my Triumph and despite the loZ pups, have to use the HiZ output and a DI for optimal results).
2) increase noise resistance (common mode rejection! which I'm sure you know all about). You can then just use any passive DI (backwards) to plug into a regular amp (or, as Rob would likely say, skip the expensive DI and just turn up the input gain - I find that this approach is not that great with all amps, especially old tube amps, and you'd still need an XLR to 1/4"TS "winkie", which you can make or buy in barrel form, at least locally here, for about $5). I can get barrel style Z converters (DI with no ground lift or passthru output) locally for $7-10.
3) isolation even when running LoZ (not using the Lo to Hi transformer)
I am also very curious as to what you're planning for the circuit - or are you going pup direct to jack?
Anyway, looking good so far (nice job on the plugs and routing - don';t think the plugs will show after finishing - solid/opaque white right; no sweat). I was gonna say looks like you need some fret leveling if not a refret, but I see in the latest pics you pulled the frets so good on you for going the full 9.
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Nice Job!! I've been contemplating doing something similar with my Les Paul Signature pickup. The Les Paul Signature guitar & bass, both have a balanced line out (1/4 stereo jack) on the bout of the guitar. A store bought 1/4 stereo to female XLR jack works well with the LP Sigs. I have more than enough parts to build a few basses, but no body............. :P
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The XLR out will be a bit of a problem in that the pup output is single-ended and anything with an XLR input is balanced.
Well, there is still a regular ac signal we´re dealing with , and I´m going to have a very simple cct applied here.
There will be volume and tone, and a Lo to Hi Z transformer. It will be like the triumph bass, without all the controls. (The Triumph has both hi and lo Z balanced / switched, hasn't it?)
A regular microphone is ´single ended´well, you still run the ac signal through XLR with separate shield (or through a transformer in the mike)
I´m not going to have any hi/lo switch, but I will be using a stereo jack for the hi Z out just to separate ground from the XLR connection.
I can post the schematics tomorrow, have to go to bed now..
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Yeah, do post a schem when you can, thanks.
I highly recommend not only a typical tone (treble cut) but also the bass tone as on the Triumph.... Though with a geetar pup in not neck position on a bass this may be less useful than either bass version in neck position on hot coil tap or geetar version on an actual guitar in neck position... so nevermind just thinkin out loud.
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2) increase noise resistance (common mode rejection! which I'm sure you know all about). You can then just use any passive DI (backwards) to plug into a regular amp (or, as Rob would likely say, skip the expensive DI and just turn up the input gain - I find that this approach is not that great with all amps, especially old tube amps
My Ampeg V4B doesn't have a gain control. Just volume. And I just crank it up some more tho get the desired increase in volume.
Makes the power tubes work harder. Not the pre amp tubes.
When I'm running lo-z into my Orange I don't dial in more gain either. I just turn up the master volume. Again making the power tubes work harder. Not the pre-amp tubes.
But I got to admit that I haven't been running Lo-z a lot lately. I use the external impedance transformer most of the time.
The transformer has an XLR in and 1/4 jack out.
I'm not sure I understand why you guys would want it the other way around?
The big advantage of the lo-z output is that the signal stays clean all the way to the amp or to the board. No matter how long the cable is going to be.
No need for a balanced signal. The signal is pure and good as it is.
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It would be an advantage if you live in a high RFI area. In my old studio (as well as in my old apartment), guitars/basses and their cables made excellent antennas, usually picking up the local jazz station, but once I got some ACDC from the Classic Rock station (had fun with that via the pedalboard).
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At last, my first Lo Z project. Mentioned before in Lo Z threads, this is a straight one pickup EB-0 project, and
the ´core´is a nice 1967 body bought naked on ebay recently. It is really a combined project, it all started when I bought
a set of Lo Z pups (4) listed as ´gibson bass recording pickups not working´. It turned out to be guitar (les paul) pickups, but two of them were in perfect working order! The ´strongest´of them read 15dc ohms, but had a broken ear. The other working unit had some epoxy smear underneath. The other two looked perfect, but had open coils. Researched a bit, and found them all to be ex-gibson employee stuff- but the previous owner thought they were all broken and sold them cheap.
It will be fun to install NOS pickups, I´ll be the first to wear the black plastic..
After getting really comfy with EB0/3 basses from the 60´s, I noticed some difficulties playing my Fender P fretless.
This would be a good excuse to buy yet another project, but space is becoming a problem. So i will combine the two projects, I can always refret if I don´t like my LoZ fretless.
Well, the body arrived, and it was not as good looking as it seemed to be on ebay, but it was cheap. On the other hand, unbroken headstock and solid neck/body joint. It was sanded down at some point and clearcoated, seems to be floor laquer painted on with a too big brush. Same with the fretboard, it had a thick smear of laquer, painted over a well used and incredibly dirty piece of rosewood! The frets almost fell of the instrument.
I top mounted the pup on my ´67 EB-3, and spent an evening looking for the sweet spot. My sweet spot, that is,
and it ended up somewhere between the neck pup and the handrest.
So I needed to fill the mudbucker/neck wire routing, and all screwholes. I´m going for my first polaris white gibson, and
for the first time I´m going to follow all necessary steps to get a decent finish..
Here it is:
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/LoZEB-01_zpsce8d5d56.jpg)]
(http://[URL=http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/LoZEB-01_zpsce8d5d56.jpg.html)
Too Cool!! Great minds think alike. I loved the Triumph Recording bass but it was just too heavy for me so I decided to build one on a completely ruined EBO Slot head body I picked up on ebay. Here is the result.
(http://Mybass3.JPG)(http://Mybass10.JPG)
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Sorry that the pics didnt post. Here are a couple. Please post your finished bass, I would love to see how it turns out.
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a520/rubelric/Mybass3_zpsb24e13d1.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/rubelric/media/Mybass3_zpsb24e13d1.jpg.html)(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a520/rubelric/Mybass10_zps2cef94cc.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/rubelric/media/Mybass10_zps2cef94cc.jpg.html)(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a520/rubelric/Mybass5_zps408af179.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/rubelric/media/Mybass5_zps408af179.jpg.html)(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a520/rubelric/Mybass8_zps351e69ff.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/rubelric/media/Mybass8_zps351e69ff.jpg.html)
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No posting on this project for a while, but it´s on.
I´m painting it white as we speak; but the headstock took me over two weeks alone, really set back the whole project!
Although the head was seemingly just stripped and laquered, sanding it down and painting it black just wasn´t that easy.
I went through 4 different paints, they all coocked. The fifth stuck, though. (the strongest castle :)) So now all steps of prepping is done ( washcoat, filler, sanding sealer and black + clearcoats on the head ) and I paint the neck and body separately. I lacquered/clearcoated the fingerboard ends first, then masked them and did the priming/colouring of the neck. Later today I´m clearcoating the whole neck, then I´ll leave it for about three weeks before masking it and do the body.
I´ll post a pick of the neck when dry.
By the way, really neat white EB-3 up there!
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Sorry that the pics didnt post. Here are a couple. Please post your finished bass, I would love to see how it turns out.
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a520/rubelric/Mybass3_zpsb24e13d1.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/rubelric/media/Mybass3_zpsb24e13d1.jpg.html)(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a520/rubelric/Mybass10_zps2cef94cc.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/rubelric/media/Mybass10_zps2cef94cc.jpg.html)
Ermm.. What´s with the neck? Neck extension??
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I like the concept. But the pickguard design needs some fine tuning.
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I like the concept. But the pickguard design needs some fine tuning.
I like that a lot Blended! Maybe tighten the pickguard around the bridge and pickup...here's a bad example.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/1960%20EBO/P1040069_zps01ba77df.jpg) (http://s976.photobucket.com/user/cata1d0/media/1960%20EBO/P1040069_zps01ba77df.jpg.html)
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I love it, Blended. LoZ stuff always look so damn good in white.
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Those Cataldo basses are sweet. I love the G8R in Seafoam Green but this EBO takes the first prize, That is probably the Thunderbucker they mention on the website in the neck position but I wonder what they are using for the bridge pick up?
I am going to change out the control panel. I openly admit that design is not my strong point so I may post a few ideas for comment before I get the router out.
Amptech. I am looking forward to the next round of Pics. Is it going to be a set neck?
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Amptech. I am looking forward to the next round of Pics. Is it going to be a set neck?
This is a normal 1967 set neck EB-0, I´m an electronics guy and by no means a luthier of any kind - this is just for pleasure!
The only woodwork I have done is the mahogany fillings and routing. The idea was to get myself a short scale EB bass (I just happened to have a Lo Z pup and the ´design´came by itself) as well as doing some training on finishing.
This is also the reason why it takes some time, Im lacking experience - but learning. Thought olympic white would be a good start, but every little piece of dust is soooo visible. Right now I´m clear coating, after rubbing off yesterdays hair and dust…..
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Ok, here´s the results of today´s clearcoating. Seems that the fifth layer was dust free and even. I´ll let it dry for three weeks now before masking it and do the body. then another three weeks before rubbing out and polishing.
The pics are not very exiting, but here it goes:
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/PC190417_zpsc305d278.jpg) (http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/PC190417_zpsc305d278.jpg.html)(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/PC190415_zps5d4eb5a8.jpg) (http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/PC190415_zps5d4eb5a8.jpg.html)
Did not manage to get that fretboard masking 100%straight, but good enough for a bass player :)
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That looks great. I can't wait to see the finished product. I am not sure based upon the light, but are you finishing it in White or a more vintage white to mimic the fading that happens though the years?
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Those Cataldo basses are sweet. I love the G8R in Seafoam Green but this EBO takes the first prize, That is probably the Thunderbucker they mention on the website in the neck position but I wonder what they are using for the bridge pick up?
I am going to change out the control panel. I openly admit that design is not my strong point so I may post a few ideas for comment before I get the router out.
Amptech. I am looking forward to the next round of Pics. Is it going to be a set neck?
Thanks for the compliments! I'm Cataldo, that's my personal EBO I've owned since '65 or so. That's the stock neck mudbucker, bridge pickup is from a '68 Tele bass installed in '74.
This is a normal 1967 set neck EB-0, I´m an electronics guy and by no means a luthier of any kind - this is just for pleasure!
The only woodwork I have done is the mahogany fillings and routing. The idea was to get myself a short scale EB bass (I just happened to have a Lo Z pup and the ´design´came by itself) as well as doing some training on finishing.
This is also the reason why it takes some time, Im lacking experience - but learning. Thought olympic white would be a good start, but every little piece of dust is soooo visible. Right now I´m clear coating, after rubbing off yesterdays hair and dust…..
White IS the easiest color, try black if you really want to have fun. Regarding the dust in clear, don't sweat it too much unless you can see color in it. When you wet sand it they'll go away. Hair is only slightly more a problem. Looking Good!
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Well, there is still a regular ac signal we´re dealing with , and I´m going to have a very simple cct applied here.
There will be volume and tone, and a Lo to Hi Z transformer. It will be like the triumph bass, without all the controls. (The Triumph has both hi and lo Z balanced / switched, hasn't it?)
FWIW the output jacks on all of my Triumph basses are unbalanced. I would have to check to be certain but I think this is also true of the recording guitar I have. They are 1/4 mono Jacks. I have several complete Triumph harnesses around here. If you would like any measurements or detail you have only to ask. What Pot values do you intend using for the volume and tone respectively? Will the transformer be post or pre tone stack?
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Thanks for the compliments! I'm Cataldo, that's my personal EBO I've owned since '65 or so. That's the stock neck mudbucker, bridge pickup is from a '68 Tele bass installed in '74.
Beautiful instruments dadagoboi. If you're willing to be flexible about pickups I would like to talk to you about a 5 string come springtime.
(Granny, sometime would your PM me your exact set up for that Jamerson tone. Unfortunately you would have to splain it to me like I was a six year old. You guys are light years ahead of me in knowledge and experience. I understand D.I. in theory but I have no experience with it)
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That looks great. I can't wait to see the finished product. I am not sure based upon the light, but are you finishing it in White or a more vintage white to mimic the fading that happens though the years?
That is the light, halogen spots and a 2004 digital camera :)
It is a straight polaris white with clear coats. No yellow added to the clear laquer either, it does look more yellow and dark on those photos.
I think I have to borrow a good cam to shoot the axe when done. Or, if the finish turns out shitty I´ll use the old camera and shoot it in dim lightening. Shot in the dark!
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(Granny, sometime would your PM me your exact set up for that Jamerson tone. Unfortunately you would have to splain it to me like I was a six year old. You guys are light years ahead of me in knowledge and experience. I understand D.I. in theory but I have no experience with it)
It's not exactly Jamerson nailed to a T, but gets you in the neighborhood - if anything, a more modern/hihfi version of that tone: Triumph with flats, tone position 3 into any 60s era Ampex tube preamp. This is how most Motown bass was recorded; even when micing JJs B15 an Ampex preamp was always in the chain, and they definately add a certain character. JJ did also went through DI - the Ampex and a P with deadish flats were the only constants to his (recorded) tone in terms of gear. Mostly the studio was using an Ampex MX10 (tube mixer with 2-4 mic pres depending on options), but I find the PR10 (which is a reel to reel 2 track recorder with a very nice tube preamp section ) or 354 (same preamp as the PR10, but larger chassis - easier to work on - the PR10 is cramped as it was the 'portable' model) sound pretty much the same (they use the same "plug in" preampmodules based on the miniature Nuvistor tubes, to convert the inputs from unbalanced line to mic level). The Ampexes only have a gain knob so use the treble/bass knobs on the Triumph to dial it it to your liking (probably bass on full or close to it and treble rolled off at least a little). The Ampex will add that low midrange girth.
I have 2 PR10s (preamps only racked up and slightly modified for stand alone use as mic preamps -the tape transports were broken and not worth fixing - horribly/notoriously unreliable machines).
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Would now be a good time to mention that I have a whole host of vintage Ampex preamps that sound NOTHING like Motown? A tube Altec mixer, however, WILL do that tone. Matter of fact, the 342B powered mixer is a VERY good substitute for a B-15N, down the 5AR4 and 6L6GC outputs. Of course, a B-15N had NOTHING to do with Motown. ;)
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Of course, a B-15N had NOTHING to do with Motown. ;)
Because Carole Kay played all those bass parts over the telephone from SoCal.
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Of course, a B-15N had NOTHING to do with Motown. ;)
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I did not say anything close to that.
I find the Altecs to be on the trashy end (tone-wise), but I'm not sure I've ever used the 342B specifically - at least not the power section. The current prices on them are insane too (I totally missed the boat on that, but at the time I was grabbing up Ampexes which I like better) though Ampexes can be way up there too, price-wise, it's mostly the 350/351 and 601 that are expensive; moreso than the PR10/354 (which were seen as dogs due to the PR10 transport), and the 'better' ones have only 1 channel vs 2 and some of them require an external power supply so cost more to get working stand alone as well after you buy them). The 354/PR10 are still bargains by comparison (the MX10 is likewise expensive though, especially if gone over/modified - not worth the price IMHO, but you can sometimes find them cheap in random places) these all sound rather different from the predecessors (350/351 and 601) which is what I am assuming you have some of, because they were the ones that were better known for their sound and more desirable/first cannabalized for stand alone use vs the others (the 350/351 certainly look cooler - and it's what they based the look/sound of the Ampex sim DAW plug in on). Anyway, it is rather well documented that Hitsville used MX10s - they had a prominant position just to the left of the console (bottom item in the rack, with other Ampex units in the rack around it):
(http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/high-end/99192d1225513912-motown-eq-motown_1964.jpg) (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/high-end/99192d1225513912-motown-eq-motown_1964.jpg)
Though they also had a single Altec (not the 432B, looks like a 1567A, so similar in that it's a powered mixer) in the back rack and I know that at some point (later than these pics I think) they had some Altec compressors in that same rear rack:
(http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/high-end/99183d1225497791-motown-eq-small-mrrack.jpg) (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/high-end/99183d1225497791-motown-eq-small-mrrack.jpg)
(click either for larger)
Anyway, I guess we're hearing different things. Tone is sso subjective. JJ himself didn't always sound the same on every record. Sometimes he was really mellow like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqtELR5GyfI
and other times, while still his mellow self under there, he's dirtier with a certain upper middishness - probably to cut through busier mixes easier, like here (really obvious before the drums kick in):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcgetEJQZ3g
The second one definitely does not sound like Ampex to me; but who knows what was in the mixing chain - the whole song sounds like the upper mids were turned up on everything (or at least the entire rhythm section). The first one does however sound ampexy to me (Ampexes can get dirty, it just doesn't sound like the dirt on the Ain't That Peculiar bass track when they do).
Anyway, I'd say at least 80% of JJs tone was his bass setup (dead old dog flats) and his fingers.
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I can forgive you your youth for not knowing but those tracks were cut YEARS apart, one in Detroit and one in L.A....I'll let you research which. That seems to be your strong suit :rolleyes:
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And that's relevant how exactly? I only posted that comparison to show the diversity in his tone over the years. The one that sounds more Ampexy to me, was recorded at Hitsville, so if anything, it helps, so thanks for pointing that out.
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And that's relevant how exactly? The one that sounds more Ampexy to me, was recorded at Hitsville.
You're the one who was making the irrelevant comparison, not me. Different engineers, studios, mastering labs, type of song, 4 track vs 16, more than 5 years apart. Why WOULDN'T Jamerson sound 'different'?
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It's not irrelevant. People talk about the 'Jamerson tone' and I was showing that it is not that consistant, static thing (this seems obvious maybe, but people often forget about that); which record/era's sound one associates with that architype of JJ can vary.
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(Granny, sometime would your PM me your exact set up for that Jamerson tone. Unfortunately you would have to splain it to me like I was a six year old. You guys are light years ahead of me in knowledge and experience. I understand D.I. in theory but I have no experience with it)
PM him, or this thread will be closed before I get to paint the body :mrgreen:
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@Blended - Somehow I missed those pics... really cool concept there! I especially like the Triumph-style fingerboard and headstock treatment. The latter looks pretty slick on the slothead. Nice job!
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Sorry amptech.
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Sorry amptech.
Don´t be, I like JJ´s sound as well - but his sound is a huuuge topic and deserves a thread on it´s own :)
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A spirited debate to be sure :) But I am looking forward to seeing some picks this weekend amptech. Any chance for an update?. I would like to know what value pots you have in mind for the tone stack you envision. I know you're not taking this route but the Shure A95F impedance matching mike transformer has a multi-tap transformer in it, one for 75 ohms and one for 250 ohms. Since your pickup is only 15 ohms you could you could switch between both taps. I wonder how different the sounds would be for each?
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A spirited debate to be sure :) But I am looking forward to seeing some picks this weekend amptech. Any chance for an update?. I would like to know what value pots you have in mind for the tone stack you envision. I know you're not taking this route but the Shure A95F impedance matching mike transformer has a multi-tap transformer in it, one for 75 ohms and one for 250 ohms. Since your pickup is only 15 ohms you could you could switch between both taps. I wonder how different the sounds would be for each?
Well, it´s drying now and will do so for a couple of weeks - I can´t rush it. I´m trying to avoid the ´jeans texture´
I got on a bass I painted when I was 14 years old. Sprayed it black after breakfast, two coats (maybe 5 minutes between the coats). Waited impatiently for an hour or so before I put the parts back onto the body, then i plugged in and played it.. So I got black marks on my pants (looked pretty cool for a punk kid) and jeans texture on the bass :)
For the electronics, I´ll wait and see. I´ll post the schematics when I know it works. My testy rig (top mounted on my ´67 EB-3 with similar body) was the 15 ohm pup through a 1K cts volume pot, via an unmarked Tamura mic-to line shielded tranny - into a jack. Only roughly put together, but sounded very nice and was not noisy.
Output-wise, plugged into my Musicman rig (HD130/212RH/115RH) it was slightly stronger than most of my basses,
(it had a tad more ´attitude´ than expected) and slightly weaker (and less bassy) then the stock ´67 mudbucker.
I did not tune the circuit, just fooled around to get the best, in my opinion, pickup placement.
I guess tuning the cct will come last, I expect it to sound different with a hipshot bridge an ultralite tuners than with
a tilted bar bridge and worn schallers.
But I´ll keep you updated the second something happens.
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Well, it´s drying now and will do so for a couple of weeks - I can´t rush it. I´m trying to avoid the ´jeans texture´
I got on a bass I painted when I was 14 years old. Sprayed it black after breakfast, two coats (maybe 5 minutes between the coats). Waited impatiently for an hour or so before I put the parts back onto the body, then i plugged in and played it.. So I got black marks on my pants (looked pretty cool for a punk kid) and jeans texture on the bass :)
For the electronics, I´ll wait and see. I´ll post the schematics when I know it works. My testy rig (top mounted on my ´67 EB-3 with similar body) was the 15 ohm pup through a 1K cts volume pot, via an unmarked Tamura mic-to line shielded tranny - into a jack. Only roughly put together, but sounded very nice and was not noisy.
Output-wise, plugged into my Musicman rig (HD130/212RH/115RH) it was slightly stronger than most of my basses,
(it had a tad more ´attitude´ than expected) and slightly weaker (and less bassy) then the stock ´67 mudbucker.
I did not tune the circuit, just fooled around to get the best, in my opinion, pickup placement.
I guess tuning the cct will come last, I expect it to sound different with a hipshot bridge an ultralite tuners than with
a tilted bar bridge and worn schallers.
But I´ll keep you updated the second something happens.
Been a couple of weeks amptech. Any chance for some updated photo's of the project?
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Been a couple of weeks amptech. Any chance for some updated photo's of the project?
Ta daaa..
Finished it yesterday!
Something´s wrong with my camera, though.. I´ll try to post a couple of pics and comment on the finishing the next few days, been busy with writing for my band.
Here´s the starter :)
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/P1270438_zpsf473ce1f.jpg) (http://s977.photobucket.com/user/sjokoladen/media/P1270438_zpsf473ce1f.jpg.html)
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Waiting for the rest! ;)
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Going to be hard going to top me for project speeds... took me 2 decades to resolve the PC fin and the RD has been "in hand" since the end of the eighties... :mrgreen:
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I actually did finish it in March!
I borrowed a good camera (had some problems with my old one) and took 50 pics of this beauty. Then I got the pics on a USB key,
but all I got was 50 file errors!
I'll try to work out something out with my old camera. This is getting silly, I know. In the meantime I have almost finished another 60's SG,
and set up a spray boot. I bought guns, filters and a bunch of nitrocellulose. I figured I wanted to learn to spray nitro first, and then decide what I like best. I have a '63 EB0F with a polyurethane refin, I think it's way too thick although it does a good job protecting the instrument.
Not shure how much this poly 'skin' affects the tone, but it's acoustic resonance and volume appears to be somewhat limited compared to those I have with original finish. On the other hand, it plays like a dream and sound great plugged in, so I will leave it for later to refin it again.
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Ok, here it comes... The pics seems kind of blue (!) but it´s polaris. Colour came out right, in my opinion(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/P6070536_zpsd8ebac42.jpg)
Rear view, XLR clear of the top. Happy with the layout. Had to modify the knobs for set screw, as the cts had smooth shaft in low values. I like the supertone bridge, but it´s a bit chunky. Should have found a good old two point bar bridge!
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/P6070547_zps4f3c9122.jpg)
LoZ guitar pickup, NOS and all - sounds great! Had to make a ring for it.
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/P6070543_zpsc23fbffc.jpg)
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More detail pictures:
Neck (fretless)
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/P6070549_zps366a787a.jpg)
head
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/P6070556_zps96707931.jpg)
back
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/P6070535_zps47643886.jpg)
Not a good pic but you can see the hipshots, and d tuner(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/P6070534_zpsdd14ccd6.jpg)
The colour looks really weird, but is not. It´s either my camera or my lack of photo skills :)
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Whoa! That came out nice!
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That is sweet- beautiful job!!
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Really impressive congrats!
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Sweet! Nice job putting the XLR on the side.
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Wow, I love it, nice job! You inspire me to do a white bass!
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Super cool! Nice work.
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Lovely work, and that pickup is a surprise in an EB-body. Looks great!
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Wow! Looks great.
That pickup looks right at home in this bass.
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Fantastic. I want to hear what it sounds like :)
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Thanks for all the kind words, I am really satisfied with this one. I played fretless for many years, and after going completely short scale, it annoyed me not to have a fretless gibson. I only filled the fret slots with rosewood dust mixed with very thinned out white glue, in case I´d not be satisfied and wanted frets. One of my other ebay-0 projects came with
a set of ´pressurewound´GHS medium scales, and I put them on. Sounds OK. Going for Thomastik flats, wich I love on
EB´s. I bought 8 or 10 of the odd size nut blanks, took a while to find but i have enough to fool around with gauges.
As for the pickup; as said before this is a guitar pickup - and I had to rout so deep it almost went through the body. Not sure if a bass pickup would fit. Even a flat neck pitch might have given it trouble, but it worked. Simple electronics; tone and volume (1K CTS) with the tone through a 4,7 uF cap, might try different values. Amazing tone range, super bright at 10, honky midrange at 5 and plesantly mellow at 0. Will be fun to try what value that works best, but the range surprised me. Almost like an active circuit, it´s a wah-wah really! Mic to line trafo, xlr and jack. Both loud and noise free. A very plesant first time Lo-Z experience. I will have to learn how to post sound clips.
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Thought I´d finish this thread by posting the schematics for the circuit, I noticed that someone might be interested.
As explained earlier, it´s a very simple circuit. It is based on the signature series LoZ basses/guitars, with the Lo out ac signal separated from the cable shield. I noted that I mentioned a 4,7 cap for the tone control, actually it is 3,3uF but I might try other values. It works really well, noise free and loud.
Here´s the schematics:
(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/singlepickupLoZccteng_zps3eb3a122.jpg)
And a shot of the guts:(http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/sjokoladen/P6210572_zps75d26ffd.jpg)
Thanks again for help and input throughout the project, turned out nice and landed well under $1000 including finishing products for many other projects, as well as a spare LoZ pickup. Cheers :)
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Thanks. Gonna have to look at that later, because the way you have the XLR wired up looks weird to me at first glance.
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I bet it does :)
No really, its just a regular hookup, I numbered the pins on the schematics to avoid confusion.
Ground/Shield to pin 1 and signal to pin 2 & 3. Might have a line or two crossed in the schematics, though -
that happens.. Build from sketches, then tidy it up for others to read.... I´ll have to check it myself!
Edit: these schematics should work, but note that the actual tone wiring have a NC lug 3, not 1. Works anyway, just reverses the tone function.
Edit 2: ...and I see i forgot to 'hump' the wire from the vol. wiper to XLR pin 3 in the schematics but obviously it's not connected (shorted) to vol. lug 1. Sorry, will fix...
Edit 3: Humped!
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Oh, and I a may also add that the voltage ratings for the caps doesn't have to be that high, I stock for tube amps and found i only had 3,3uF in high voltages. The .001 cap in the shock protection cct is recommended being 500V or higher, if I remember correctly. So that if you are struck by lightning, at least the cap will be fine :)
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Please bear with me here; trying to understand this (and maybe learn something).
I am still a little confused about why you have the brown lead from the pup connected to XLR pin 2 both pre and post the transformer in parallel. First of all, shouldn't pin 2 be connected to vol pot wiper (just like TRS tip - you wired it as pin 3 hot which is 60s XLR standard; no real biggie, just a polarity inversion when plugging in to modern gear). I also do not understand how you got the COLD (reverse polarity) signal out this thing.... unless it's not proper balanced output but just Z balanced, in which case miswiring pin 2 is a problem (unless you're only plugging in to old unmodified Ampex, Altec and RCA tube preamps), but that would explain my confusion from the first sentence (usually I've seen that done with a simple resistor between cold/pin 3 and ground/pin1 with R = output Z of the previous stage)?
Why use a TRS jack (ring and sleeve will be connected when you plug in a standard TS guitar patch)? Though it doesn't technically matter, usually ground is sleeve (vs ring).
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Please bear with me here; trying to understand this (and maybe learn something).
I am still a little confused about why you have the brown lead from the pup connected to XLR pin 2 both pre and post the transformer in parallel.
I doubt there is much to learn here, as I have mentioned this cct is just pulled out of gibson LoZ schematics. The only thing
I´ve done here, is to remove parts in the tone cct, and use XLR instead of a TRS jack. As for red and brown, or hot/cold if you like, I have not given a thought which is start and end of the pickup coil so I decided to let the colour coding (red/brown) on the transformer lead the way here. (The transformer was wired this way in the mic pre console it took it from, which is also why I put brown to XLR pin 2) The brown wire is connected to both sides of the transformer because thats the way it is hooked up in the gibson schematics (and most other I´ve seen) and it works properly that way.
Why use a TRS jack (ring and sleeve will be connected when you plug in a standard TS guitar patch)? Though it doesn't technically matter, usually ground is sleeve (vs ring).
Because the shield wiring of the XLR would have been connected to pin 2 if i used a TS jack. It´s just a logic mechanical solution.
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But the original Gibson schem has no balanced output and that's what's confusing me - I am trying to understand where you get the COLD (-ve / out of phase) signal from (I understand this can be done with a tranny, but it would need a 1:1 not 4:1, and it doesn't look like you wired it for that anyway). Further, in the original schem, the output is only connected both pre and post tranny with a switch so that only one connection (either pre or post; lo or hi Z) is active at any one time (lo and hi Z output is on same jack vs separate jacks on yours) - your schem has them permanently in parallel which is very different.
Also my point about pup polarity is not which lead is +ve (not really important unless dual pup instrument and you don't want them out of phase), but that you have the the 1/4" and XLR connectors wired backwards to each other (i.e. XLR pin 2 should = TRS tip, but it doesn't) - if you plan to mix the two outputs this may cause problems. Further, if the XLR is not actually outputting a proper balanced signal (including being just Z balanced) pin 2 needs to be hot not pin 3 (again, unless you will be exclusively plugging in to vintage gear made before the standard changed that hasn't been rewired accordingly yet).
All of these things could be wired right in the bass itself just noted wrong on the schem, I suppose. Can't quite tell from the gut shot you posted.
Sorry, not trying to be annoying just trying to understand and, if I am reading the schem right, help.
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Sorry, not trying to be annoying just trying to understand and, if I am reading the schem right, help.
To be honest, I only looked at the schematics after you pointed out something was wrong, but as far as I can tell the schematics are correct for the actual hookup, which works.
To start with, for the LoZ out I use an XLR because the gear I might plug into will have an XLR connector. I could have used a jack plug, I know. Where do I the cold from? I never shot for a balanced out, I just connect with an XLR and have a separate shield, it´s one pickup straight out of pin 2 & 3 and shield 1 and I see no point in complicating things at all. If I have said in earlier posts that I was going to balance the LoZ out, sorry, but that is not the point in this application. I am well aware that gibson only used a switch across the matching transformer, but you questioned the brown wire hookup to the transformer, which is believe is hooked up like gibson did. I think the signature series was connected something like this, with a TS for HiZ and a TRS for LoZ. I might be wrong, but again... as long as it works.
I´m sure you can google that if it is of any interest.
And of course the XLR and jack out cannot be used together, I hope I haven´t said that either. I have the choice of using either, using a TRS for the Hi out so I don´t need a switch to lift ground (or cold if you like that better) from shield. You obviously understand electronics, so there is no need explaining further why this cct wold not work properly
if I had used a regular mono jack for the HiZ in this application.
Vintage gear, well that´s anything older than five years (according to ebay :) ) so I guess that includes my two Yamaha mixers, but my three years old digirack protools setup was also noise free and sounded fine (with a regular 10m XLR cable) so if there is something wrong with the schematics, I honestly can´t find it! I´d have to open the cave and check, maybe I have looked my self blind on this schematic.
Please forgive me if it still is confusing, electronics in foreign languages is not my strong side.
You´d have to build one yourself :mrgreen:
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I just looked at the LP Sig (bass and guitar) - I see that they do use a TRS for the Lo Z out. Never noticed before (or forgot). I was confused because usually for unbalanced XLR one simply connects +ve to Pin 2, -ve/ground to pin 1, and jumpers pin 3 to pin 1.
You should still switch pins 2 and 3 on the XLR though. TRS Tip = Pin 2. You have tip = pin 3. This is wrong.
Also I do not see the LoZ +ve connected both pre and post transformer in either LPSig schems. Look again; that's just the ground (sleeve/pin 1) not ring/pin3 or tip/pin2.
Anyway, we are having a language barrier here as you say (I did not realise you were not a native English speaker, sorry) so this is what I am recommending and I will bother you no more:
(http://grannygremlin.com/GrannysRecForLoZEB0.JPG)
Note: I added the ground lift as an option because I don't think it's worth it, but the LPSig you're basing your wiring off of *appears* to have pup -ve (brown in your case) not connected to ground. In practise, when you plug a TS jack into the loZ TRS output it will short ring to sleeve, thereby connecting pup -ve to ground. In the case that a TRS cable was used (unlikely at the time of the instrument's release, as they weren't popular at the time outside of patchbay applications and headphones, but possible) this would not be the case, hence the optional ground lift idea, but I do not know what effect that would have; probably fine depending on what you're plugging in to.
Also, I do not think it's a good idea to use a TRS cable for your Hi Z out (assuming it's also plugged into a TRS input) as the pup won't be grounded. TS would be safer here - but if you never sell or lend it to anyone without explaining this it's a trivial matter as you understand this. You could also put in a ground lift switch between TRS ring and sleeve (or use a dual gang/DPDT in place of the optional XLR ground lift so as to lift both at the same time and not have too many switches on the damn thing). That way you can have separate ground and pup -ve as you said you desire (I personally see no real useful purpose for this, but suit yourself), but still be safe. The way you have it wired now (ground to ring) it will hum like a bastard if TRS is used (as said before - at both ends, into gear with TRS input ... which I suppose isn't likely as most, if not all, HiZ gear is TS/unbalanced, but as we say in IT: if it's possible to do, some idiot will try it eventually - not an issue, as stated, if you never sell or lend) because the bridge/strings won't be grounded.
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Thanks, input on a project is always positive wether it is balanced or not 8)
Note: I added the ground lift as an option because I don't think it's worth it, but the LPSig you're basing your wiring off of it *appears* to have pup -ve (brown in your case) not connected to ground. In practise, when you plug a TS jack into the loZ TRS output it will short ring to sleeve, thereby connecting pup -ve to ground.
I´m aware of XLR to TRS jack coupling, but it is not relevant to this application. I did not intend to use HI and LO together, and the HI jack out is meant to use with a regular mono jack plug. I just used the TRS chassis plug so that no switch was needed, and it works as intended. I don´t need switching when the hardware does the job.
I guess i should have mentioned that i meant to use the Hi Z with a normal mono guitar cable.
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Even if TRS and XLR not used at the same time, XLR should be wired properly because all modern XLR inputs look for the signal on Pin 2 not 3. If you misswire a balanced XLR connection you just get an out of phase signal (no real biggie), but misswiring an unbalanced XLR can lead to actual problems.
The only reason this might appear to work is that you don't tie either red or brown to ground (unless there's a TS jack plugged in to the HiZ out). You got lucky on that one, but I still think the pre and post tranny connection you have would at the very least cause a level mismatch; I've never tried that but think you may have just developed MidZ :P
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I've never tried that but think you may have just developed MidZ :P
That was jus what I was aiming for :)
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It's not exactly Jamerson nailed to a T, but gets you in the neighborhood - if anything, a more modern/hihfi version of that tone: Triumph with flats, tone position 3 into any 60s era Ampex tube preamp. This is how most Motown bass was recorded; even when micing JJs B15 an Ampex preamp was always in the chain, and they definately add a certain character. JJ did also went through DI - the Ampex and a P with deadish flats were the only constants to his (recorded) tone in terms of gear.
Actually Jamerson's bass was usually recorded direct. He had an Ampeg B-12 as a studio monitor, but the bass you hear on the recordings was DI. And likely through a tube compressor. The Ampeg B-15 as part of his tone is a myth, but he did use one for live gigs.
Much of the Motown bass is brighter than most people expect too, when you hear it soloed. Jamerson clearly either had more foam rubber under the strings to deaden them, or his action was kind of high, making the stock mute's foam press down on the strings more.
Here's Jamerson's soloed DI track on What's Going On
http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/media/whats_goin_on_solo_bass.mp3 (http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/media/whats_goin_on_solo_bass.mp3)
Heard it through the Grapevine
http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/media/JAMES_JAMERSON-I_Heard_It_Th.mp3 (http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/media/JAMES_JAMERSON-I_Heard_It_Th.mp3)
Reach Out
http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/media/JAMES_JAMERSON-Reach_Out_Ill.mp3 (http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/media/JAMES_JAMERSON-Reach_Out_Ill.mp3)
Here's a mix I did of soloed Motown bass lines. (no Jamerson)
http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/media/motown_mix.mp3 (http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/media/motown_mix.mp3)
I Want You Back (Wilton Felder), Brick House (Ron LaPread), Let's Get It On (Wilton Felder)
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I smell a heated debate back on track.... on the other hand, I get calls and mails all the time from people who wants to buy
James Jameson's fretless Gibson :)
Nice to see you post, David - I read through many of your postings on MI forum when I sarted making sidewinders some years back,
and if I remember correctly you have written a couple of interesting pieces on Gibson LoZ pickups too?
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Actually Jamerson's bass was usually recorded direct. He had an Ampeg B-12 as a studio monitor, but the bass you hear on the recordings was DI. And likely through a tube compressor. The Ampeg B-15 as part of his tone is a myth, but he did use one for live gigs.
Not to interrupt (and fan) this flame bait in the making, but Ampex was the tape machine, not Ampeg, the bass amp, which according to just about everyone but the guys who wrote books about it decades after the fact, WAS used to get the bass sound on those old Motown tracks. Funny that a Precision through a B-15N 'just happens' to sound exactly like those old Motown tracks. :rolleyes: "Well informed sources" cite everything from Fairchild limiters (which would have been strapped across the main mix bus but never dedicated to an individual track) and tube preamps in the tape machines while conveniently overlooking the fact that the tone is easy to cop; the magic is in the playing.
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Thank YOU PBG! 8)
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Thank YOU PBG! 8) 8)