The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Rickenbacker Basses => Topic started by: uwe on October 12, 2012, 04:05:46 AM
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I found this interesting: Here is Glenn Hughes's (don't be fooled by the Roger Glover pic) isolated bass track from Burn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUT3KiF1SUU
And here is his predecessor Roger Glover with his bass track on Highway Star:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mLryrT1ZMc&feature=related
Neither bass track is perfect (nor does it need to be, nor would it sound perfect if I had played it), but Glenn is quite a bit sloppier than Roger and less tight! It's not surprising as Glenn has a reputation to be impatient in the studio and leave after the second take while Glover - the producer in him - immerses himself in the recording studio world.
Other than the obvious "uhum uhum" connection, which is the sole reason why I am posting this, the recordings are only about two years apart and were created with the same producer (Martin Birch), known for mixing the bass up quite prominently (just ask Steve Harris, Birch did the early Iron Maiden stuff too). And they are both undeniably Ric though Hughes' (probably in a conscious move to emulate Glover) 4001 is a different one to Glover's. Hughes didn't play the Ric for long though, he reverted to his beloved P Bass midway in the Burn tour.
I always found that the bass on Burn is the least audible on any seventies DP album, those two isolated tracks reveal why: Hughes had sub-bass and crisp to distorted attack, but was thin on the mids where Glover is prominent. The Burn bass track is not a typical Birch eq either, he generally adds a lot more mids to a bass sound (like on the Whitesnake albums with Murray). Which is strange because Blackmore's ooops, whatshisname's radical amp setting (full treble, full bass, all mids cut or even removed in the wiring) allowed any bass player quite a bit of "mid room". When the Burn remaster came out a couple of years ago, I hoped that Hughes' scooped bass sound had been tweaked somewhat, but unfortunately not so. You still don't hear him as well as Glover even though Hughes is the much more aggressive player and tends to be ahed of the beat clamoring for attention while Glover settles in. The neo-classical melodic chorus bit Hughes plays around 47 sec of his bass track for the first time sounds exactly like the type of guitar backing B... darn! "the guitarist in Glenn's band at the time" preferred, I doubt that Glenn came up with it, it his not his style at all, he is a pentatonic man at heart who avoids classical scales.
Who/what do you guys prefer?
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Cool! I'll listen to it later! And my opinion will follow...
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Glover, hands down. His sound on Machine Head is what first turned me on to Rickenbackers.
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Oh man, those are awesome! Danke! Definitely Glover for me tone-wise, and he's playing even more killer licks than I knew of prior to hearing this isolated track. Glenn's tone to me is kind of "bad" overdriven tube amp. I think it could have been refined a little bit. Reminds me of my former V-4B when it was pushed too hard, but not hard enough. And what I mean by that is - you could get a really great grind with lower volume settings, or you could get a sweet roar by turning it all the way to 11, but there are in-between tones that just sound awkward.
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Glenn's playing has that gung-ho attitude - he was quite a bit younger than Glover when he joined - which I find appealing, but take that away and there is not that much substance in his playing. I understand that he doesn't give his bass playing too much a thought nor rehearses a lot, it comes natural to him as he says. Glover is more "composed" - in both meanings of the word: His bass lines are more thought out and he is more controlled in his playing. As he once said: "When all hell is breaking lose with DP on stage, it is my job to keep a steady bass line going."
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Glover, but then I didn't have to listen to a note (even though I did) to know that one...
How about some outlandish bass sounds... ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgrOD4PZzuY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6BLQDIM52A
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I like both players equally. I do prefer Glenn's Made In Europe version though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzmZbu0gs24
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ9ibVvlA7A
... and purely for novelty value...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBNGBdDO9WU
... and the neglected lineup...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S14XaF6bW7A
... or if you want some outstanding work from Hughes...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3mPMm8CgKk
... and what I consider to be one of the most simply beautiful works ever recorded...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1FWv0aJRaw
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I always found that the bass on Burn is the least audible on any seventies DP album, those two isolated tracks reveal why: Hughes had sub-bass and crisp to distorted attack, but was thin on the mids where Glover is prominent.
Who/what do you guys prefer?
Hughes' Rick might have been recorded in stereo and I recall reading he played through Blackmore's Marshall heads. His sound on "Stormbringer" and "Come Taste The Band" is far better, not to mention "California Jam" and "Made In Europe". All with Precision and I have a theory that he had his Martin bass cabs and Hiwatt heads in the studio too. Paul Martinez had a quite similar bass sound on PAL's album (also produced by Birch) and he used similar Martin cabs (only with Sunn Coliseum amps).
Glover's Rick sounds better. His sound on "Who Do We Think We Are" wasn't as good 'though, a bit too muddy.
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uwe, i will see your trapeze and raise you one nana.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhc7MEYY-Ho
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Fold... I know when I'm beaten... ;D
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I always thought Glenn used the Ric on MIE.
(http://i45.tinypic.com/16bcbic.jpg)
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2jtcoh.jpg)
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well i much prefer roger glovers tone but then i always thought that was a great bassline.for that grinding p bass tone i think i prefer john wetton.plus he was awesome.imho.
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I always thought Glenn used the Ric on MIE.
The pictures on the sleeve featuring the Ric are from early "Burn" tour. Jon Lord doesn't have a Clavinet on top of his C3 on the cover for example. Here's pics from one of "MIE" source gigs:
http://www.dpac.at/Deep_Purple_Graz_1975_Photo_Gallery.html (http://www.dpac.at/Deep_Purple_Graz_1975_Photo_Gallery.html)
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Hughes didn't play the Ric for long though, he reverted to his beloved P Bass midway in the Burn tour.
He had sold it to Geezer Butler.
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Great info guys! I guess that would explain this! :)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/1kec1.jpg)
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Great info guys! I guess that would explain this! :)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/1kec1.jpg)
What an awesome shot, looks like Geezer was very happy with it.
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I'd kill to be that sloppy.
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uwe, i will see your trapeze and raise you one nana.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhc7MEYY-Ho
Nana could sing. I have fond - pre-Deep Purple - childhood memories of her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0_gDCbCRM8
This was in a similar vein.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RyGPvTTMaI
But my early musical influences wouldn't be complete without this first encounter with Dutch hard rock!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioFKZgH8oxI
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What an awesome shot, looks like Geezer was very happy with it.
But didn't he use it only for the Hammersmith Odeon gig because he had forgotten his other basses (the John Birch basses) and his usual stage clothes? Most of the pics I've seen from the "Never Say Die" tour has him playing the Birch basses or a striped JayDee.
Some of the tracks on "Never Say Die" sound like a Ric and Geezer said in an interview that he played a fretless Ric on "Johnny Blade".
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I found this interesting: Here is Glenn Hughes's (don't be fooled by the Roger Glover pic) isolated bass track from Burn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUT3KiF1SUU
And here is his predecessor Roger Glover with his bass track on Highway Star:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mLryrT1ZMc&feature=related
Neither bass track is perfect (nor does it need to be, nor would it sound perfect if I had played it), but Glenn is quite a bit sloppier than Roger and less tight! It's not surprising as Glenn has a reputation to be impatient in the studio and leave after the second take while Glover - the producer in him - immerses himself in the recording studio world.
Other than the obvious "uhum uhum" connection, which is the sole reason why I am posting this, the recordings are only about two years apart and were created with the same producer (Martin Birch), known for mixing the bass up quite prominently (just ask Steve Harris, Birch did the early Iron Maiden stuff too). And they are both undeniably Ric though Hughes' (probably in a conscious move to emulate Glover) 4001 is a different one to Glover's. Hughes didn't play the Ric for long though, he reverted to his beloved P Bass midway in the Burn tour.
I always found that the bass on Burn is the least audible on any seventies DP album, those two isolated tracks reveal why: Hughes had sub-bass and crisp to distorted attack, but was thin on the mids where Glover is prominent. The Burn bass track is not a typical Birch eq either, he generally adds a lot more mids to a bass sound (like on the Whitesnake albums with Murray). Which is strange because Blackmore's ooops, whatshisname's radical amp setting (full treble, full bass, all mids cut or even removed in the wiring) allowed any bass player quite a bit of "mid room". When the Burn remaster came out a couple of years ago, I hoped that Hughes' scooped bass sound had been tweaked somewhat, but unfortunately not so. You still don't hear him as well as Glover even though Hughes is the much more aggressive player and tends to be ahed of the beat clamoring for attention while Glover settles in. The neo-classical melodic chorus bit Hughes plays around 47 sec of his bass track for the first time sounds exactly like the type of guitar backing B... darn! "the guitarist in Glenn's band at the time" preferred, I doubt that Glenn came up with it, it his not his style at all, he is a pentatonic man at heart who avoids classical scales.
Who/what do you guys prefer?
I definitely like Glover's playing better.
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Hughes played Highway Star (albeit sloppily and without any respect for the song) in Mk III and Mk IV though the key was neither good for Coverdale's nor his voice, it was discarded as their encore together with Don Nix' Going Down. Glover only played Burn in full during the Slaves & Masters tour - it was their opener then - with Joelene and also post-reunion Gillan line-up sometimes as a short snippet during instrumental parts in Speed King when Blackers and Lord would exchange riffs.
Gillan refuses to sing anything from the Mk 3 and 4 line up, but is ok with doing Mk 1 stuff such as Hush. He rates Rod Evans highly as a singer.
Glover snuck into an Mk III concert in London on their first tour post-Burn unbeknownst to his former band-buddies and watched as he says "heartbroken". He didn't like what he saw, "but I was probably being judgmental". Gillan clains he has to this day never heard either Burn or Stormbringer, "but I heard some tracks off Come Taste the Band and was stunned by the funk thing".
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(http://i48.tinypic.com/1kec1.jpg)
Man does Geezer EVER look like Cliff Burton in that pic! Synchronicity a decade apart I guess.
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Funny, he reminds me of Joe Walsh!
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Both kind of! I like his playing. It's not so much hard as heavy and warm. You can be pentatonic and melodic.
The Sabs were underrated as musicians, right down to Bill Ward who could outswing all successors whether Appice, Powell or Singer of name.
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The Sabs were underrated as musicians, right down to Bill Ward who could outswing all successors whether Appice, Powell or Singer of name.
I love Bill Ward, but outswing Cozy Powell? He brought big wood to the pajama party.
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Powell could never swing. Neither could Bonham. Ian Paice could (and can), Brian Downey could and Bill Ward could. I will forever find Bonham and Powell leaden on drums though Bonham's being behind the beat has something in its own way. But it doesn't swing in my ears.
And a great part why I found Rainbow never as musically flowing as Deep Purple was what Powell did to the music, it was brutish, but hardly musical. (Let's not speak ill of the dead, I know that Cozy had charm as a person and as a drummer, but being the bassist with him as a drummer I always found more of a chore than a privilege.) In my ears, Cozy's battering of the music also ruined Whitesnake's Slide it in for me.
In case nobody understands what I mean:
This swings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsGHZBDeXnM
This doesn't:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-46W8EGK4qg
And here at 7.50 is the studio version with Ian Paice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYXmQosM5EM
Case closed. But I know that I'm in a minority and that a legion of drummers in the wake of Bonham and Powell have decided that swing is something to ignore. It flabbergasts me to this day that something as vital to an instrument has been jettisoned by a majority of today's drummers. Modern drumming seems to be all about getting a maximum of volume with the utmost amount of precision. Where is Buddy Rich when you need him? :-\
A drummer once told me: "The reason why most people cite Bonham and not Paice as an influence is that everybody can learn a few Bonhamesque chops and get away with it, but that Ian Paice swing thing is a dying art and so much harder to pull off."
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I fully agree Uwe. I spent nearly 12 years in a cover band and 8 of those years were spent with the guy who had "swing". It did not hurt that he and the guitarist were brothers (and all 3 of us hispanic ;) ) but it was a joy to play with a drummer of his caliber. (cue the John Holmes jokes!) The drummer who is now in the band is so heavy handed and off time we actually had to click track him on the non click track songs. :sad:
Another (off topic but good) example of bassist and drummer joined at the hip courtesy Chuck Rainey and Bernard Purdie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9UYyhQDF3k
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Wow. You were talking about Swing (the genre), not swing (the brutish, hardly musical battering of drum heads). I apologize for my density, however, you slid heavily off course on your "here's why Cozy Powell sucks" diatribe.
It's a stretch to insinuate that he was a key factor in bringing Rainbow down to earth (that was lame, I know) - Rainbow had enough on-going internal strife that the band was bound for the member-only revolving door and inevitable flame-out. I doubt that many of Rainbow's 700 break-ups/make-ups/reformations/Mk 3, 4, 5, etc.) were due to drum play.
Some of my favorite music of all time are those Rio/Blackmore/Bain/Powell songs like Stargazer and A Light in the Black off of "Rising". Epic stuff. His drumming on Kill the King is so wickedly inspirational (and tiring) that it confounds me how folks look at him only as a beater.
Swing is not dead in modern music, either. Take a guy like JP Gaster of Clutch - he's a big hitter, but has sinister chops and cites Buddy Rich and Elvin Jones as key influences. If you listen to JP speak about drumming, he also cites John Bonham (who I don't particularly care for) as a huge influence on his playing style.
My son's drum instructor is heavily into the hitters like Bill Ward and Powell, but is enjoying teaching the different passions that many influential drummers brought to music. I love the fact that my 14 year old loves some of the old (and dead) guys like Powell, Paice, Ward as well as some of the new beasties like Jordison and Lombardo
Although everyone is entitled to their own opinion about music and the effect that music has on them, there is no "case closed" on any topic...although I totally agree that Ian Paice may be the most overlooked drummer in the history of music. I grew up (I'm 51) with 2 older brothers shoving DP down my throat at a very early age, and my oldest brother (being a drummer) trying to show me every nuance to Paice's playing. One thing about DP is that even their more recent stuff is chock full of great drumming. The man is a machine.
Steve
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Why I don't like working with young guys on drums...old guys know how to swing, and how to play the pocket
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Case closed was to mean "I've made my point", Steve, not to curtail discussion. And I'm not saying that Cozy is to blame for Rainbow's relative commercial misfortunes (they didn't do badly, just not as good as DP before or - post-reunion -after them), I'm just saying that his heavy-handed drumming took all the roll out of Rainbow, not that the fans minded, Rainbow Rising is still a fan favorite today. Blackmore was more than happy with Powell's drumming and knew what he was getting. Powell was never messy, I grant him that, but his muscular and machine-like playing made Rainbow sound outright teutonic in comparison to Purple. Maybe that is why Rainbow was more popular in Germany than anywhere else!
There is nothing playful in how Powell drummed, I always missed that.
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Maybe that is why Rainbow was more popular in Germany than anywhere else!
Lots of bands were more popular in Germany. Maybe Germans are less discriminating! ;D
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Lots of bands were more popular in Germany. Maybe Germans are less discriminating! ;D
is this a good time to bring up David Hasselhoff?
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Lots of bands were more popular in Germany. Maybe Germans are less discriminating! ;D
Naw, but we tend to stick to things until the bitter end.
(http://www.dradio.de/images/19740/landscape/)
And our inherent need for Ordnung lets us get impatient quickly with sloppy bands which is why Mott the Hoople, Led Zeppelin and Cheap Trick, to name three, never climbed the heights here as in countries where neatness of construction has been long lost along the way. :-*
But we appreciate meticulous nerdness when we see it which is why I had a great time on Tuesday night watching two Californians - Messrs Ronald and Russell Mael - performing excerpts from their ouevre on the "Two Hands - One Mouth" tour sans any backing band.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFuZMICoOW0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLLsNF2ze1c
And it's even proper to post it all here since their bassist sometimes plays a Ric! :mrgreen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgakpSoHEiE
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thats a great video for dick around.
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The Maels are one of a kind and brilliant, yet the US - even in more intellectual music loving circles - has disowned them. Even when they are apparently lightweight, they're smart:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvatys8vP3s
You have no idea what you are missing lyrically too (not to mention the Gershwinesque music):
"All I do now is dick around,
All I do now is dick around, dick around
Every day, every day, every day
Every night, every night, every night
Every day, every day, every day, every day, every day
Every night, every night, every night, every night, every night
Overtime, more overtime,
I'm conscientious by design
To reach the heights of academe
To be the captain of the team
To CEO a thousand who
will do the things I say to do
And I will make a lot of bread
And you will find me good in bed
I will push, I will pull, I will push, I will pull
Pull a couple strings and find myself atop the corporation
Tailored to the maximum,
I send another fax to them
A parking place, a new Corvette,
a manicure, a private jet,
A stock incentive busting out,
"A phone call, sir." Well, say I'm out.
"Your lady friend." Well, put it through.
(SHE:) "Uh, listen, dear, I'm through with you."
(SHE:) "Through with you, through with you, through with you, through with you."
Yes, I think I got the point and bang, there goes my motivation
What to do, what to do, what to do, what to do,
All that I can think of was "I'm tendering my resignation."
But, all I do now is dick around
All I do now, is dick around, dick around
All I do now is dick around, when the sun goes up and the moon comes out
When the leaves are green and the leaves are brown
All I do now is dick around
I've got so much to do, gotta pick things up, gotta see things through
My, how the time does fly, gotta wave hello to a passerby
All I do now is dick around, when the sun goes up and the moon comes out
When the leaves are green and the leaves are brown
All I do now is dick around
I've got so much do
Gotta pick things up, gotta see things through
My how the time does fly, Gotta wave hello to a passerby
All I do now is dick around, when the sun goes up and the moon comes out
When the leaves are green and the leaves are brown All I do now is dick around
Think about the recent past
The cynics said too good to last
But she could change her mind again
Oh, no, this movie said "The End"
So I will go about my day
Just dicking round, my metier
And realize that life is change
And furniture to rearrange
Why the hell, why the hell, why the hell, why the hell?
Why the hell did she desert you when you were so influential?
Why the hell, why the hell, why the hell, why the hell?
Why did she desert you when you told her she was so essential?
Pull yourself up off the ground
You've started liking being down
The persecution feels cool
The subtle feel of garden tools
But what about that other life
'Cause this is more an afterlife
Seducing you each night and day
You're never gonna break away
Look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me,
Knowing that from now on what you do is strictly non-essential
Look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me,
Knowing that from now on no one wonders if you've got potential
All I do is dick around, the sun goes up and the moon goes down
The leaves are green the leaves are brown
And all I do is dick around
Why the hell, why the hell, why the hell, why the hell?
Why the hell did she desert you when you were so influential?
Why the hell, why the hell, why the hell, why the hell?
Why did she desert you when you told her she was so essential?
But all I do now, is dick around All I do now is dick around, dick around
Every day, every day, every day, every day, every day
Every night, every night, every night, every night, every night
Every day, every day, every day, every day, every day
Every night, every night, every night, every night, every night
Every day, every day, every day, every day, every day
Every night, every night, every night, every night, every night
But all I do now is dick around All I do now is dick around, dick around
And all I do now is dick around
All I do now is dick around, dick around
Then I got the late-night call,
(SHE:) "I really miss you after all"
"I had a fling and that is all,
"A stupid fling, then hit the wall."
"So take me, take me, take me back."
"I love the way you scratched my back."
(HE:) Well, there is something you should know."
(HE:) We might not be simpatico."
All I do now, is dick around
All I do now, is dick around
(SHE:) "I don't care what you do, dick around, I will too."
(SHE:) "I don't care what you do, I'll dick around next to you."
But all I do now, is dick around
All I do now, is dick around
Dick around"
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A bit late. Roger does sounds better, but I love the playing of Hughes. A bit sloppy but it has soul.
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Yeah, Glenn is an "attitude" player.
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And our inherent need for Ordnung lets us get impatient quickly with sloppy bands
And what exactly Ordnung has to do with rock'n'roll? :P
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Glenn and Roger both sound simultaneously drunk and high on coke. I always admired what Nicky Simper did in MKI. Such a nice clean and in the pocket 60's pop fender p bass sound. Love that version of Help.
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Mind you, personal health effects aside, drunk and high isn't necessarily a bad thing. Lord knows (not John) in the pantheon of rock there have been many a great bassline recorded under those influences. I just meant they sounded both sloppy and at times rushing.
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Hands down Roger Glover gets my vote!
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I thought Cozys drumming on slide it in Kicks complete and total ass!His subtle kick drum changes alone in the title track are beyond tasteful.The Paice,bonham,thing has always been the inigma.To me its like comparing apples and oranges.Both tasty and appealing.No one grooves like Bonham! period!Ian is a flat out monster!Extremely fast and can swing like nobodys business.And for my last two cents worth.Geezer butler is far from sloppy.He has great feel and is very smooth as well. Its his choice of tone that kinda defeats the purpose.Oh and one Vote for Roger glover! :mrgreen:
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Glenn and Roger both sound simultaneously drunk and high on coke. I always admired what Nicky Simper did in MKI. Such a nice clean and in the pocket 60's pop fender p bass sound. Love that version of Help.
Simper was a busy-buoyant bassist and his lines on the first three DP albums are nice, melodic and memorable, without being too difficult to play. But his style of both McCartneyish and (then) traditional bass playing was deemed "too rock'n'roll" (in a fifties sense) by Paice and Blackmore so he got the boot. I like what he does on the bridge here at 1.18, stuff that would get you kicked out of any studio today in no time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8oASFvMh0g
Both Nick Simper and Jon Lord had played with one-hit-wonders and Beach Boys rip-offers The Flower Pot Men prior to DP and while they did not play on the recording of this song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puuWsTitPa4
that "flats with a pick" click bass sound (with best regards from Bert Kaempfert!) obviously stuck with Nick all through his tenure with Purple. But it wasn't a seventies rock sound (though it hung around long enough in pop, think of some of the Carpenters releases in the early seventies), in came Roger Glover with also a P Bass (initially) but roundwounds and a much darker and more sustained, less ploppy sound (he played with fingers too initially, moving to pick only later on). It's what Blackers heard in his head (or on the first and second Led Zep album!, whose influence on them DP have never denied).