The Last Bass Outpost

Gear Discussion Forums => Rickenbacker Basses => Topic started by: gearHed289 on January 27, 2012, 11:12:21 AM

Title: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: gearHed289 on January 27, 2012, 11:12:21 AM: A nice fella named Mark recently started a Rickenbacker appreciation group on facebook. There are now around 1100 members. It was going nicely... THEN the company started giving the page owner grief about trademark, blah, blah, blah. SO, they agreed to add a couple of Ric employees as admins. NOW they're deleting posts and members at will should anything negative be said about the product. I have much more to say about it, but I'll keep that to myself. I've contacted several "regulars" from the group and told them about this place. Maybe we'll get more activity here? Maybe not... :)
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: nofi on January 27, 2012, 11:15:39 AM: i love ric's 'after the purchase terrorism policy'. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: ilan on January 27, 2012, 11:58:13 AM: Quote from: gearHed289 on January 27, 2012, 11:12:21 AM
I've contacted several "regulars" from the group and told them about this place
Thanks for doing that!
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dave W on January 27, 2012, 12:21:16 PM: The Mark who started the group wouldn't happen to be Mark Arnquist, would it?
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: dadagoboi on January 27, 2012, 12:49:05 PM: That sucks big time. How can you infringe a trademark by discussing the good and bad things about a product? It's done all the time with car and motorcycle brands for 2 examples.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: gearHed289 on January 27, 2012, 01:12:26 PM: Dave, no, but it was his posts that really fanned the flames this past week. Mark was sharing some VERY useful information on how to improve some quirks that exist on some of the instruments. I don't recall seeing anything disrespectful. Maybe overly honest with his opinions at worst? Anyway... as I told the guys I contacted - I don't want to be a trouble maker or anything. I love the products. I love that they're exclusively made in the USA. I love their "keep it small, keep demand high" business model. But I will NOT be censored by any corporate goon squad. These things should be able to be discussed freely (and respectfully please). Arnquist was not aware of this place until today. We may be seeing some of his posts, hopefully.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: OldManC on January 27, 2012, 02:25:49 PM: Maybe they should slightly change the name of the group and ban the Rickenwaffen tools. The members are already there and new ones will find the group just the same.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: gearHed289 on January 27, 2012, 04:00:44 PM: That was suggested by a number of us. They opted to allow the Ric admins, but nobody expected it to turn into what it has. I was thinking "I'm a fan a Santa Ana guitars". ;) OK, maybe not...
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dave W on January 27, 2012, 04:41:32 PM: Mark Arnquist just joined us. I only asked if it was him because you mentioned a Mark. I know that he and John Hall have long-standing issues. Those issues aren't going to be rehashed here. We can discuss Ricks without any personal bashing.

I expect that Rickenbacker will protect its trademarks to the extent they are allowed to by law. If - and I stress if - they are trying to stifle criticism on trademark grounds, then that goes beyond what they are allowed to do. That would be trademark bullying, and it would be unfortunate. OTOH if John or any other Rick company representatives want to post here, they are also welcome to.

It should be obvious to anyone who reads our Gibson forum that we allow criticism of manufacturers.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dr Quist on January 27, 2012, 04:42:56 PM: Greetings I have joined
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: gearHed289 on January 27, 2012, 05:53:34 PM: Quote from: Dave W on January 27, 2012, 04:41:32 PM
if John or any other Rick company representatives want to post here, they are also welcome to.

Absolutely!

Quote from: Dave W on January 27, 2012, 04:41:32 PM
It should be obvious to anyone who reads our Gibson forum that we allow criticism of manufacturers.

Great point.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dr Quist on January 27, 2012, 06:03:55 PM: so is there a method of posting photos to this site ?
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dave W on January 27, 2012, 10:14:19 PM: Quote from: Dr Quist on January 27, 2012, 06:03:55 PM
so is there a method of posting photos to this site ?

You can upload directly from your computer, just click on the Additional Options to the lower left of the text box and you'll see it. We do limit the size and it will show up as a thumbnail that can be enlarged. Or if you have photos hosted externally on a site that allows hotlinking (e.g. Photobucket) you can just use the Insert Image icon above the text box (far left just above the smileys).
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dr Quist on January 27, 2012, 11:47:14 PM: Here is a stock tailpiece
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: ilan on January 28, 2012, 12:53:03 AM: Welcome Mark!

Pics of Dr Quist's bridge mod were posted on this forum 4 years ago - just a taste of what he can contribute:

http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=600.0
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Denis on January 28, 2012, 06:07:09 AM: I think that's the FB page I joined just the other day but haven't been back to check it out.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dave W on January 28, 2012, 08:07:15 AM: Quote from: ilan on January 28, 2012, 12:53:03 AM
Welcome Mark!

Pics of Dr Quist's bridge mod were posted on this forum 4 years ago - just a taste of what he can contribute:

http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=600.0

Okay, I remember that thread. No reason on earth for that to be censored. Yes, it's definitely a modification that changes the character of the bridge, but so what? He's just showing what he does, and if it doesn't suit you, you don't do it.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: ilan on January 28, 2012, 10:06:03 AM: I think Mark is referring to his bridge/tailpiece mod where the notches between the "teeth" are deepened and the bridge chassis is turned around. It's still in the technical pages of the RR, where it has been for the last 11 years.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dr Quist on January 28, 2012, 10:33:28 AM: I think I should start a thread so it is easily found rather than stick it in this thread .
Any thoughts ?
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: ilan on January 28, 2012, 10:38:35 AM: Go ahead.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: chromium on January 28, 2012, 10:43:19 AM: That's a real shame hearing about the FB page, and this is precisely the reason I rarely participate on manufacturer forums (Ric seems especially over-the-top in terms of zealotry and censorship). I enjoy the candid discussions about ALL brands at this place, and it would be great if those Ric FB folks brought the party here. 8)
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: rich briere on February 06, 2012, 06:16:09 PM: Quote from: chromium on January 28, 2012, 10:43:19 AM
That's a real shame hearing about the FB page, and this is precisely the reason I rarely participate on manufacturer forums (Ric seems especially over-the-top in terms of zealotry and censorship). I enjoy the candid discussions about ALL brands at this place, and it would be great if those Ric FB folks brought the party here. 8)

The "Censorship" thing is a double edged sword. I began cruising posts back when FORUMS were a dream in Al Gore's eye. :) Posts have ALWAYS been an interesting way to learn and also a FABULOUS way to be conned, tricked, lied to and swindled. I've always lived by a single rule: "Never Ruin Someones Dream". By that I mean, if you're "in the business" and KNOW that the folks who run ANY company are actually creeps in "Real Life", it's best to keep it to yourself. IMHO, the LESS we know about manufacturers, the better off our music-making dreams will be. :)

Also high on the list of Awareness is knowing that if someone is really bashing the crap out of a product--ANY product--chances are pretty good that they work for a competitor in some capacity--they have an axe to grind--they're just brain dead....or they have no life and simply enjoy reading what they write. While at Fender, I CONSTANTLY saw posts from folks who bashed everything that Fender (and everyone else) made and, as always, the guy with the biggest mouth most often turns out to be the one to watch out for. Manufacturers KNOW that, so as the internet developed SOME of the companies began to get VERY protective about what was said by "Folks with No Name".

Lastly: We humanoids tend to believe what we read. I've read numerous posts about instruments that I, personally, gave birth to....but as the "song" moved around the room, things changed. I'd follow posts from "experts" who would talk to other "experts" and soon MANY of the "facts" about the instrument were down-right WRONG. But, people will buy almost anything if they read it often enough so after awhile I simply stopped trying to make corrections and left the Forums altogether. I, personally, ADORE Ric basses and I've owned quite a few. I also understand that Ric has been around for decades and there's a reason for that.....they run a VERY tight ship.....they build a great product....and they have no Shareholders to answer to. Sweet Dreams. :)

Bass-ically Yours,
Rich

PS: NOWHERE have I said that Rickenbacker has ANY creepy people in its employ or management. :-X
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dr Quist on February 07, 2012, 10:50:33 AM: I invite you all to look at all my postings prior to 2004 on the RRF .

Peter has kindly kept them all there for the world to see .
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Denis on February 20, 2012, 04:50:28 PM: Quote from: Denis on January 28, 2012, 06:07:09 AM
I think that's the FB page I joined just the other day but haven't been back to check it out.

I take it back. This is not the page I joined. I joined The Rickenbacker Page, the FB page for a local business which developed out of The Music Loft on Hodges Street in Raleigh. Rickenbacker recommended this place to do any work on my 4001. Whew, no Ric police involved!
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: weekend warrior on February 23, 2012, 12:12:34 AM: I still think Rics CEO( see no names) is a sociopath....Love Ricks and have 6 of them.All of them pre73.Will never buy a new one!.I will never support Rick.They dont listen to the consumer and in my opinion,they dont care!They are riding on legacy alone!I realize that you are on the RRF forum Ilan.So dont take this personal.The RRF is responsible for deleting and censoring more threads than any forum in history!They too live in a fantasy world!Mr.Fortune,Dr.Quist,Mr.Staberow,Mr.Rath, just to name a few have all been alienated By Ric and The RRF.The administrators on the RRF need to get a clue!The aforementioned people are some of the most knowledgeable luthiers and players ive ever known.And have all been offended personally By Ric and the RRF. and will no longer post on either site!Ive been banned from the RRF for a bridge thread!I made the mistake of talking about all parts ric replacement bridge.Mr.Fortune and Dr.Quist have been targeted by said sociopath merely for thier knowledge of Ricks.He is jealouse because he is incapable of coming up with good ideas of his own!The Ric police are everywhere!!!!LOL!!Welcome Good Dr.Quist!Your thoughts and knowledge are welcome here.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: ilan on February 23, 2012, 02:02:51 AM: Well, this is not the RRF.

I will add, though, that my personal experience was different, and when I needed help with a truss rod issue in a bass that I bought used and was not under any kind of warranty, John Hall stepped up, explained in detail what I should do and what to avoid doing, and even went as far as to research machinists in Israel that can manufacture the part I needed. I thought this was pretty cool.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dave W on February 23, 2012, 07:40:38 AM: Yep, what the RRF does is Peter's business. Why he has banned people and whether or not John had anything directly to do with it is none of our concern. We don't need to bring that here.

Uwe had a similar experience to Ilan, John helped him with his 8-string neck and truss rod problems when he didn't have to. Unfortunately the neck still has issues.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: gearHed289 on February 23, 2012, 08:28:15 AM: Weekend Warrior - I understand your thoughts COMPLETELY! Trust me. There have been a number of times I've chosen to take a break from the RRF for various reasons. But, MOST of the people there are cool. And I have to disagree that they're riding on legacy alone. In my opinion, they are now making some of the best instruments they ever have. Having said that, the newest of my 3 is a '93. 8) Customer service seems to be hit or miss, as I've heard glowing reviews as much as angry rants. Whatever. My '89 4003S is still my #1.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: SeanS on February 23, 2012, 11:46:28 AM: I think the fact that if you post on a forum regarding RIC, you may get a response from John, THAT!!, whatever the reply is worth a great deal indeed.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: nofi on February 23, 2012, 11:59:16 AM: imo no one has the right to dictate to you after the sale has been made. not even almighty john. i have never heard of such crap. >:(

uh oh,gotta' go. i hear hobnail boots on my walkway...
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: weekend warrior on February 23, 2012, 12:56:23 PM: Again Ilan i ment no offense to you as i know you are hip deep in the RRF.I will also add that there are alot of good people on the RRF!Im not targeting people persay.merely,Policys and politics.There are even more cool people that WERE on the forum that said policys and politics have alienated as well.Ive seen JH's idea of help and advice many times.Its mostly Vague,colorless,and facetious.I will openly disagree with the statement that they are making the best product they ever made!They are mostly machine made now.They cant decide how they want the neck profile anymore,They are also have twisting problems with necks on a regular basis.They have the right idea for the truss rod design.however it is incomplete and not correctly anchored at the heal.Over tightening causes the rod ends to sink into the wood thus making any kind of twist difficult to get out!In MHO(lol)removing the human element or hand built aspects, and leaving most of the work to machines have ruined the mojo,Crapped in the chile,thrown a wrench in the gears.They are cookie cutter now.all 6 of my old ricks where hand made!Quality is second to non!All are tonefull,beautifully built and finished.And have full appointments :mrgreen:I love ricks!I always have!Thats why this crap bothers me so!If only JH really listened to his consumers,really considered helpfull ideas to make a better product. This conversation would not be happening.He's more concerned with his Legacy,and ego..
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: ilan on February 23, 2012, 11:32:44 PM: None taken, Jaymi. We're good.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: gearHed289 on February 24, 2012, 09:06:39 AM: Quote from: SeanS on February 23, 2012, 11:46:28 AM
I think the fact that if you post on a forum regarding RIC, you may get a response from John, THAT!!, whatever the reply is worth a great deal indeed.

Gotta agree with you there. I even exchanged a couple of e-mails with JH way back when they were first designing the 4004Cii/5 concerning string spacing.

I don't know if I mentioned this, but there is a NEW facebook group that's kind of a riot here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/315108415191351/
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dave W on February 24, 2012, 02:33:04 PM: There's also this one (https://www.facebook.com/groups/78514186083/).
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: warriorbass05 on February 24, 2012, 07:23:15 PM: Quote from: ilan on February 23, 2012, 11:32:44 PM
None taken, Jaymi. We're good.

What did I say? I am warriorbass05, Jeff is weekend warrior...
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: ilan on February 25, 2012, 01:07:06 AM: Had a senior moment... happens a lot lately. I meant Jeff of course.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: mc2NY on February 25, 2012, 01:41:31 AM: Quote from: dadagoboi on January 27, 2012, 12:49:05 PM
That sucks big time. How can you infringe a trademark by discussing the good and bad things about a product? It's done all the time with car and motorcycle brands for 2 examples.

Wouldn't a simple disclaimer at the bottom of each webpage by that Ric Facebook site, stating "Rickenbacker and all its related brand/model names are property of Ric" blah, blah...be sufficient? There are lots of sites like that...Hamer Fan Club, etc., that are run by fans and users but not actually part of the manufacturers.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dave W on February 25, 2012, 09:21:34 AM: Quote from: mc2NY on February 25, 2012, 01:41:31 AM
Wouldn't a simple disclaimer at the bottom of each webpage by that Ric Facebook site, stating "Rickenbacker and all its related brand/model names are property of Ric" blah, blah...be sufficient? There are lots of sites like that...Hamer Fan Club, etc., that are run by fans and users but not actually part of the manufacturers.

It wouldn't hurt to put a disclaimer to make it clear that the page is not an official site. It's not necessary to say that their brand names belong to them, since nothing is being sold.

In any case, having a trademark means that you get to prevent false use of you mark. It doesn't allow you to prevent critical discussion of your product.

Keep in mind that we don't know the full story here. We don't know if the people who started deleting posts were acting as company representatives or as overzealous fanboys.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: uwe on February 28, 2012, 08:35:10 AM: Quote from: Dave W on February 23, 2012, 07:40:38 AM
Yep, what the RRF does is Peter's business. Why he has banned people and whether or not John had anything directly to do with it is none of our concern. We don't need to bring that here.

Uwe had a similar experience to Ilan, John helped him with his 8-string neck and truss rod problems when he didn't have to. Unfortunately the neck still has issues.

True he did. And it is blatantly untrue that he doesn't listen to customers. In my case he took the only sensible step:

He deleted the model. :mrgreen:

As Ric tend to when they run into issues, be it with 5- or 8-stringers. The tried and trusted 4-string is always their safe haven. And the fact that that works is probably a lucky accident. 8) 8) 8)

Uwe (proud owner of a Ric 4003/8 with now its third set of stronger truss rods - thank you Ibanez -, a new, thicker fretboard to enhance stability and a recessed bridge as well as 4 other Rics and, no, I don't think that the older models are automatically better, my year 2000 4003 is probably the best one of them all)
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: gearHed289 on February 28, 2012, 10:44:31 AM: Ha ha! Yeah, too bad about the 5 string. Was a cool bass. Why they didn't design a pickup specifically for that beast is beyond me. But, truth is, I get it. 4 strings WAY outsell 5 strings, and 8 strings are definitely a niche market.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: uwe on February 28, 2012, 06:08:03 PM: True, the long scale 8 string concept is inherently flawed, way too much pull. A short scale 8 string might actually work though.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: dadagoboi on February 28, 2012, 07:05:54 PM: Quote from: uwe on February 28, 2012, 06:08:03 PM
True, the long scale 8 string concept is inherently flawed, way too much pull...

Maybe for Rickenbacker, not so much for other manufacturers. I own 3 Korean long scale 8 strings, all with slim 24 fret maple/rosewood necks. The Dean has 2 truss rods and is 5 piece (2 mahogany stringers), the Robelli and Rogue are one piece with single TR. No neck problems with any of them.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Psycho Bass Guy on February 28, 2012, 11:36:36 PM: Quote from: uwe on February 28, 2012, 06:08:03 PM
True, the long scale 8 string concept is inherently flawed, way too much pull.

I guess my 34" Waterstone is OK because it has 12. ;)
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: uwe on February 29, 2012, 04:42:25 PM: I complained about the pull not because of the neck stability - obviously many necks can take them, my Gibson CS LP 8-string has no issues and it is a regular LP neck -, but because the extremely taut octave strings feel expressionless to my fingers as they react neither to bending nor vibrato. Unmusical. A 12 string is even worse in that respect and approaches sounding like a synth to me. As if you're a machine playing a machine. If Paul McCartney, Geezer Butler, Jack Bruce and Pino Palladino played 8-strings they would all sound less individual than with 4-string basses. And for the life of it, I cannot here anything individual in the playing of the Cheap Trick guy except that he plays multi-strings a lot and is basically a rhythm guitar chugger with a very unfocused sound live. Even D(o)ug Pinnick loses individuality when playing his multistrings. Rhythmic nuances, bending, vibrato, attack all get lost, the (long scale) eight string is the great equalizer.

There is no musical need for octave strings to be as taut as they are on a long scale (and a Ric isn't even a real long scale, more of an oversize meduim scale), even octave strings on a short scale would be far from floppy. And I believe their brightness would blend well with the mushier regular strings.

I've said this before, my dream bass would have E and A long scale and D and G short scale doubled with an octave.

No offense meant to committed multi stringers, I'm sure you play your beasts well, but I'm equally sure that I would hear "more of you" on a regular 4 string.

Uwe
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Dave W on February 29, 2012, 06:28:43 PM: ^^^ What a reactionary! ;D
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: Psycho Bass Guy on March 01, 2012, 04:41:20 AM: Quote from: uwe on February 29, 2012, 04:42:25 PM
I've said this before, my dream bass would have E and A long scale and D and G short scale doubled with an octave.

You'll have to talk Dingwall into making one of their Super Jazz basses an eighter for you.
Title: Re: facebook and the Ric Police
Post by: drbassman on March 01, 2012, 12:17:57 PM: This is all I'll say about RIC and its owner. I suspect he has his ups and downs like all of us. It's clear through reports from users that he and RIC do often provide good service and listen to their customers, and at times they do just the opposite. I only had 2 interactions, both negative because I asked for something they didn't want to provide or consider: truss rod wrenches with each instrument sold and a reintro of the 4005. Both of those requests were openly sneered at in the RIC forum and and I was belittled for even asking.

I was also told RIC owners were too stupid to adjust their own truss rods, so why give them a wrench to screw them up? I simply replied that if they believed that, why have adjustment instructions in the owners manual? The real problem was the incomprehensiable instructions in the poorly written owners manual, which I offered to rewrite at no charge. That too was derided and so, there you go. Will it stop me from buying a RIC I like? Nope. They are just 2 instances out of thousands, I'm sure. Do I have warm fuzzes for the RIC folks? Not one.

No big deal. It's a free market and we all can make choices.

Now, don't ask me about my experiences with a certain amp manufacturer who's name starts with an F!