The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: uwe on December 13, 2011, 05:33:31 AM
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Now that's a statement. I'd take issue with it even if it stated the opposite. I've played excellent solid state and tube amps and crappy solid state and tube amps. I don't think an Ampeg SVT (though I own and play one) is the be- and end-all of bassdom. It does some things better than my Ashdown and Markbass rigs and some things worse. I like the treble and the mid range of a tube amp (though treble will never snarl like it does on a solid state if that is what you are after, I'm not), but I think as regards bass and sub-bass most solid state amps project things more tightly and accurately than most tube amps (certainly both my Ashdown and my Markbass rig reach frequencies that the SVT has given up on, whether you need these frequencies is a matter of taste); with a tube amp low bass tends to be everywhere and not very concrete, which feels nice for the bassist, but causes issues for the mix. There is a reason why the 8x10 fridge that goes with the SVT is no sub-bass wonder (I've added a 1x18 Ampeg cab to mine for that reason), it camouflages where the SVT loses accuracy, not that that is an issue in most playing situations.
Am I in a minority and do you actually have to be religious about playing tube or solid state? ??? ??? ???
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It really doesn't matter to me. I just need a graphic eq so that I can get the right frequencies reproduced...
Although I love my son's Ashdown amp...I just plug and play and it sounds good.
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For me it has to be tubes all the way. I like my Hiwatt DR201 and Marshall Major the best. I have numerous SVTs over the years and they leave me cold. I would take a V4B over a SVT any day. Another Ampeg I like a lot is the B-25B, great amp for a small room or recording. I did have years ago a ROAD ss amp, it had a master vol. and shoved over that thing sounded fantastic. only ss amp I ever liked.
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I've been playing SS amps a lot more than tube amps over the years but I'm not sure I can say I have a preference. There are a whole lot of old tube heads that I absolutely love. The weight and conveniece of SS is a great thing and there are many that do everything I'm looking for. My Genz Benz shuttle 6.0 is definately a dream come true. 3.75 lbs os SS with a single 12ax7 tube to give it some of that tube push, incredible definition and plenty of juice to get the job done. A bit of a comprimise between the two and I like it ;D
Rick
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makes me no nevermind. ;D
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The words of the gentleman advocating Acoustics should perhaps be taken with a grain of salt. A good amp is a good amp. Vintage amps that have survived to now were obviously built pretty well and most of them are tube. Whether someone else thinks I need them is irrelevant.
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Matters not to me. If I can get "my sound" out of an amp, I don't really care how it's done.
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"and most of them are tube"
Is that so? :o What about all those H&H, Peaveys, Acoustics, Trace Elliots etc on the market? For much of the eighties and nineties, tube amps were not what people were looking for (at least in Europe, I can't speak for the US). I'd say there are more solid states on the market (but tubes have certainly made a comback in the last 5 to 10 years, almost any bass amp company worth its salt is offereing a large tube amp with 8x10 rig these days). Vintage to me is anything that's 10 years old or more these days.
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Matters not to me. If I can get "my sound" out of an amp, I don't really care how it's done.
agreed. most of my favorite amps lately are solid state hybrids which use a tube to warm up the ss sound. my favoite amp right now is an eden
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That sums me up as well. I always welcome the chance to play other people's rigs, often I won't even change their settings. Results are often interesting, but never did I not recognize myself immediately.
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Tubes satisfy some inner need I have. Maybe it's just a tungsten deficiency. Yeah, that must be it. Or maybe it's just old age and the lack of decent SS amps when I was young.
Whatever gets you your sound is okay with me.
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That's a point. Early solid state stuff sounded harsh and had horrible distortion when overloaded, but you don't have that anymore with stuff even at a low price today. I played someone else's Marhall solid state rig - by the look of it hardly an upmarket model - only recently and it sounded nice and snappy with my TBirds (and a bit too snappy and rash for my taste with his P, but other people might love it).
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I am definitely a tube fan, and have been since the late 80s. However, I have gotten some killer sounds out of solid state amps as well. A SS amp through 15s has a certain sound that I really like (Geddy Lee...). In the mid/late 90s, I switched from my '74 SVT to a SVT III Pro - 5 tube pre-amp/SS power amp. Very close approximation of the old monster, but I noticed right away the lows were a little tighter. Recently, I picked up a new Acoustic 115 combo with a 200 watt SS amp section. It's great! Cheap, reasonably light weight, 6 band rotary EQ. And it's LOUD! I'm using that for most gigs, and bringing out the '74 SVT and my 115/210 cab for bigger places with easy load-in. ;)
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i guess i have a camp in both foots because i have a ampeg valve preamp crossover and solid state warwick poweramp which works well for me.i can get internal organ massage frequencies and a nice bit of crunch when i play hard.torrid state ?
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Feet in both camps. I try not to get too hung up on tube vs. solid state, but try to assess the rig as a whole. I have quite a few Ampegs including a '63 B15 Portaflex. But I think my '66/'67 solid state BT15C sounds just as good if not better, even though those early solid states get a bad rap.
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/Ampeg%20BT-15C/feb032011033.jpg)
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agreed. most of my favorite amps lately are solid state hybrids which use a tube to warm up the ss sound.
Me too. I have a mixture of both, and every one of my amps have at least one tube - or 15, in the case of my Traynor YBA-300 LOL
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Hey stiles, I've got a 67 B15C too ;D. It's in pretty good shape also. I've had it since about 68. I haven't used it for anything in years but haven't gotten around to getting rid of it. It served me well for many years :) I've only seen a couple of others.
Rick
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For the kind of music that I play a full tube amp with plenty headroom fits best (in a live situation)
I'm not looking for a super accurate amp that delivers the tightest lows you can imagine.
I'd even say I need an amp that is forgiving. I want it to cover up my sometimes sloppy playing.
And more important I need the dynamics. I want it to respond when I want to drive it hard, and calm down when I want it to whisper.
The amp with the worst dynamics I have ever encountered is the Orange Terror Bass. No matter how hard or gently you play the strings it is always equally as loud.
And I love the harmonics you get from powertubes working their best. That is the reason why I don't like most hybrid amps with an "excuse tube" in the pre amp. That is not where the magic happens. It happens in the powertubes.
There is one hybrid that I do like and that is because it is the other way around; the pre amp is SS and the power amp is tubes: Ashdown BTA 400. But it is too heavy for my hernia :-\
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Tubes satisfy some inner need I have. Maybe it's just a tungsten deficiency. Yeah, that must be it. Or maybe it's just old age and the lack of decent SS amps when I was young.
Whatever gets you your sound is okay with me.
Tungsten deficiency. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I'm firmly in the "whatever works" camp. The amp I've played through the longest is all solid - Thunderfunk. My last two purchases are hybrids - Shuttle 6.0 and Mesa Walkabout.
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"and most of them are tube"
What about all those H&H, Peaveys, Acoustics, Trace Elliots etc on the market?
I don't consider the 1980's to be "vintage." From the 80's until about ten years ago, bass amp design, especially s/s, changed very little, so there's no real they made better then factor before that time. Vintage starts before the late 1970's in my book.
No H&H's around here; the only one I ever saw was a "KMD" combo. It sounded nice, but was nothing special. Peavey: aside from the copies of other companies' tube bass amps, put out tons of s/s that sound pretty much the same. Every vintage Acoustic amp I've ever seen has had something wrong with it, and I have three Trace Elliot heads, VA350, VR400, and V6; all of them tube amps.
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I guess I don't really care.
I first played a 1967 blackface Bassman through an old Fender 2x15 cab - sounded great to me.
Next I played through a Fender Bassman 120 SS combo with a single 15 - sounded great.
Next I played through a Behringer BH4500H SS which never let me down, using a Peavey 15" cab, and I thought that sounded great.
Next I played through a Sunn Coliseum-300 SS through Peavey 15" cab, and it sounded great. And it was heavier than a freakin' boat anchor.
Then I got a Genz-Benz Shuttle 6.0 with tube pre-amp, and it both sounded great AND was feather light.
Now I have the blackface Bassman for a practice amp, the Hartke for a backup, the Bassman 120 combo just 'coz, and I'm using only Genz-Benz amp and cabs any time I leave the house.
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I like whatever sounds good. Only one 1 SS amp currently, a Genz Benz Neo-Pak, but I like it. I've owned tube and SS, liked both, but also played through both types of amps that didn't sound so good. That said, to date nothing has sounded as good to me as my B-15, for any bass tone I desire. Nothing has impressed me with sheer sonic force (while still sounding pretty darn good) as my 400PS running the right 3 cabinets. I do tend to worry more about the tube amps, I've left the Genz at the practice spot for months now but wouldn't do that to a tube head. Not that I fear their reliability. Also much more reluctant to sell a good tube head than a SS head. Tube amps have souls, while solid state amps don't.
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Difficult question. Four experiences:
I have a Hiwatt DR201 (before that a Vox AC50 and an Orange AD200B) and I love it. It's very heavy, though, and sometimes sound engineers want me to play with quite a low volume on stage, so I can't use it as it's supposed to be used. Of course it's very heavy, big, it needs maintenance, ..
A local rental company has a nice SVT + 8x10 which is often used at local festivals and when I know it's there, I don't bring my own amp.
Because I can't play as loud as I want, the Hiwatt stays at home often and I used a very clean SS-amp for a while. Too clean, so I used the Tech21ny VT Bass, which is great. Af course not as dynamic as a real tube amp, but I like it soundwise.
In studio I used the 30W all tube Ashdown Litte Bastard. Hiwatt sounds at low volume. It's not powerfull enough to use on stage though. I reviewed it for the magazine and I concluded that it could be nice to have a small tube amp for studio recordings and a hybrid for live use...
With that in mind I'm trying an Ashdown 550 Spyder head at the moment. It's not thát light, but I can carry it with one hand and I even walked to our rehaersal space. Bass in one hand and amp in the other. A five minute walk, but the Hiwatt is only good for a five second walk.
The 550 has two tubes in the preamp and the SS power circuit of the ABM500. I don't think it are excuse tubes, as Rob calls it. (Rob is right though, in a lot of cases!) It sounds quite good and I can dial in clean sounds and a bit of an overdriven sound and I like it a lot. It's better than the average SS-amp, not as good as an SVT, Orange or Hiwatt, but it has a normal size, it's not to heavy, reliable... I think I will buy this amp, but I won't sell the Hiwatt. I will use it when the band will get a van:)
I do not think the Ashdown is perfect, but it's a good blend of both worlds and very practical and easy in use.
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Gonna weigh in here - I've been playing through tube amps since day one. I still have a bunch of 'em - mainly Ampeg and Orange units from the 70s. Nothing has ever sounded as good to me as my '71 V4B through a squareback SVT bottom. This past week in a rehearsal studio, I played through a new Traynor DynaBass 800 and accompanying Traynor 8x10 bottom, and I was amazed at how GOOD this rig sounded. Very much like the aforementioned V4B/SVT. While I do tend to prefer tube amps over SS units, I have found over the years that I can adapt pretty easily to an unfamiliar SS rig as long as I carry my Peavey Alpha tube preamp with me. With that, I can at least get some of the tube grind that I have come to rely on. I am of the opinion that with bass amps, the tube pre is more important than to have glass in the power section - most of your tone shaping happens in the preamp anyway - but not all tube preamps are created equal. These days the clubs around here (really glorified corner bars) are smaller than in the glory days, and most of the time you're dealing with a "vocals only" PA system (although there are exceptions). My current rig for these situations is a pair of Ampeg B100R combos, stacked and run together with a Radial Big Shot ABY and Yamaha NE-1 parametric in front (thinking about getting a Tech 21 VT Bass to play around with). The two amps are EQ'd differently, with the bottom amp's Ultra Low switched on. In essence, I am bi-amping, but there is no crossover network. The B100R is a very vintage, tubey sounding amp, voiced to emulate a B15, and gives me the warmth I like without the tube pre. If the room is a little larger, I use a Crate BT-350 that I recently acquired, through a 4x10 or 1x15 - depending on how much power I need.
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I played one of those Ampeg combos a couple of weeks ago and it sure sounds nice. And I like the VT Bass. I know some VT Bass users and they all like it. It's not a substitute for a tube amp, in terms of headroom and dynamics, but you can dial in some nice sounds. I use it with a very clean amp and I get some really 'low+ high and not much mid' Ampeg sounds out of it, but of course I can dial in more mids.
I'm going to think out loud now, without knowing the conclusion.
I also think/thought the preamp produces most of the 'sound' and the power amp just amplifies it. But two experiences tell me something different:
1 - I use an Warwick Hellborg, which is not mine. It has no tubes, but it sounds tube-y because of the big transformers in the power amp. It's a heavy bastard. It could mean big transformers have more (or at least a big) influence on the sound than the power tubes? Of course this is a chicken/egg story, cos for some big power tubes you need some bad ass transformers.
2 - In my eyes Rob/Basvarken is an authority on the topic of good sounds. He loves the big Ashdown with an SS pre and a tube power amp. Rob needs headroom and dynamics and the big transformers and tubes give it to him. That also means Ashdown can make a very good sounding preamp.
If this is all right, one can conclude you can have a great amp without tubes. Or maybe a tube preamp and an SS poweramp with big transformers? In all cases a bass amp needs to be quite big.
One last thing about transformers. I have this small back up amp. The ugliest amp ever: The Ashdown Little Giant. The green one. I used to have the MAG300 as back up, but all basses sound the same on that amp. Nice for beginners... This Litte Giant is small and has small transformers. It's nice, but if you crank it up you lose a lot of low end.
I hope I'm not too chaotic in this post:)
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I agree with Rob the magic happens in the power tubes. Pre amp tubes sound weak and grainy to me.
For the kind of music that I play a full tube amp with plenty headroom fits best (in a live situation)
I'm not looking for a super accurate amp that delivers the tightest lows you can imagine.
I'd even say I need an amp that is forgiving. I want it to cover up my sometimes sloppy playing.
And more important I need the dynamics. I want it to respond when I want to drive it hard, and calm down when I want it to whisper.
The amp with the worst dynamics I have ever encountered is the Orange Terror Bass. No matter how hard or gently you play the strings it is always equally as loud.
And I love the harmonics you get from powertubes working their best. That is the reason why I don't like most hybrid amps with an "excuse tube" in the pre amp. That is not where the magic happens. It happens in the powertubes.
There is one hybrid that I do like and that is because it is the other way around; the pre amp is SS and the power amp is tubes: Ashdown BTA 400. But it is too heavy for my hernia :-\
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I know it's an emotional attachment to the past, but my hybrid, tube pre-amp rigs (Mesa Walkabout and Fender TV) sound so sweet to me. There are great SS amps I'm sure, but when I test drive them at the shop, I always gravitate to the tubed amps.
I do have to say, I had an Ampeg Rocket BR-100 and it was one of the best at modeling the old tube sounds of the 60's and 70's. Wish I still had it. I sold it for more volume to play with the band. Might try to grab one used some day just for grins. They should still be making those amps!
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Ampeg Rocket 100 has been my main amp for years now. I have no problem playing any size venue with it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/iamthebassman/189898_184700428240074_148282888548495_434925_7383642_n.jpg)
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2 - In my eyes Rob/Basvarken is an authority on the topic of good sounds.
Haha, when did that happen? :o
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Good to see some love for the B100R! A gig shot from my oldies project: tubes and SS working side by side...
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/63%20Portaflex/gretchen-b15-portaflex.jpg)
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Oh yeah. Someday I'm gonna buy an old B-15 and rehab it, just because! That's what I played trough for years as a kid and my final amp in the 70's was an SVT with 2-15" cab. Both really nice sounding rigs!
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I like Hiwattt DR103's best of all amplifiers for my bass. I thought I was going to go back to solid state, GK and then I yused a peavy solid state Piece of Crap....That settled it for me. Love that British Iron!!!!
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Rob, you're always busy with sounding good, finding the right strings, ...
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i prefer tubes.because thats the sound i'm after. but there are some great ss amps too. i recorded with a marshal ss amp that once belonged to Keith Richards and the Winos awesome sound. but the guy who owned it moved away and i cant remember the model it was beige and had 2 cabs a 4X10 and a single 15". i used 2 mics and no DI (Kick drum mic on the 15 and an Sm57 on a 10) GK's are in every practice room and house backline in NYC and i can always get my sound pretty close on 'em. but tubes smell better. the weight doesn't bother me as i am still strong and fit enough (i just turned 39 last thurs)
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but tubes smell better.
A friend and I always say we will start using modeling amps as soons as they can smell like a real tube amp:)
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A friend and I always say we will start using modeling amps as soons as they can smell like a real tube amp:)
Hey, maybe that's my hangup, the smell!!!!
I played my Mesa at practice last night and the sound is so close to my old B-15 of my youth, I just can't get enough of it.
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A friend and I always say we will start using modeling amps as soons as they can smell like a real tube amp:)
And heat the rehearsal room in winter. I wish I lived somewhere cold enough to benefit from the 12 power tubes that are in my Traynor YBA-300
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I'm envious, someday I want a fully tubed amp, vintage preferably.
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Oh yeah. Someday I'm gonna buy an old B-15 and rehab it, just because! That's what I played trough for years as a kid and my final amp in the 70's was an SVT with 2-15" cab. Both really nice sounding rigs!
My '63 B-15 was a rehab. It took a while, but it was a fun project! The good thing about B-15's is that there are plenty of parts and resources out there. Here's a link to my restoration photos: http://s554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/63%20Portaflex/
Before:
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/63%20Portaflex/eb1a_12.jpg)(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/63%20Portaflex/f523_12.jpg)(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/63%20Portaflex/62-portaflex017.jpg)
After:
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/63%20Portaflex/portaflexandtbird003.jpg?)
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/63%20Portaflex/63portaflexrestoration009.jpg?t=1259785336)
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/63%20Portaflex/pf115-b15003.jpg)
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My '63 B-15 was a rehab. It took a while, but it was a fun project! The good thing about B-15's is that there are plenty of parts and resources out there.
Same with my SB-12, which had been tolexed by a previous owner and had various incorrect hardware .....
Before -
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/mdeayton/Ampeg%20SB-12/AmpegSB-12Portaflex011.jpg)
After -
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/mdeayton/Ampeg%20SB-12/ampegcomplete.jpg)
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Great job on those 'pegs! My '64 needed a recap when I bought it from the original owner's nephew around a year ago, smelled like it had lived most of its life in a cedar closet. It's in better shape than I remember my B-18 being in 1967. Traded that in on a first generation SVT.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/B-15N/DSC02796-1.jpg)
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/B-15N/DSC02801.jpg)
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OH MY!!!!! You guys are killing me with envy! :P I'm gonna do this someday. Gotta get back to my roots, ya know! Great inspiration in those pics, thanks for posting them.
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My '63 B-15 was a rehab. It took a while, but it was a fun project! The good thing about B-15's is that there are plenty of parts and resources out there. Here's a link to my restoration photos:
After:
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/63%20Portaflex/portaflexandtbird003.jpg?)
Extra points for the coily cord!
I lack the skill to rehab mine, so I have to settle for sounding great but looking like a "before" picture.
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Great job on those 'pegs! My '64 needed a recap when I bought it from the original owner's nephew around a year ago, smelled like it had lived most of its life in a cedar closet. It's in better shape than I remember my B-18 being in 1967. Traded that in on a first generation SVT.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/B-15N/DSC02796-1.jpg)
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/B-15N/DSC02801.jpg)
Wow - that's a beauty!
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I don't think an Ampeg SVT (though I own and play one) is the be- and end-all of bassdom.
Amen brother! I loathe SVTs. I'm forced to use them at rehearsal studios, and cannot get a decent sound out of them to save my life. And I have no problems getting amps to sound good.
They just have awful EQ stacks. There's a big hump around 250Hz that you can't get rid of, and the low end is intentionally rolled off. The mids sound boxy.
My first good amp was a mid 60s B-15n. Wasn't loud enough to play over a rock drummer though. Wish I still had it, but it was stolen. My first good big amp was a Peavey "Bass".
(me and the Peavey in 1977)
(http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/Dreamer_dave_4001.jpg)
Personally I have a Mesa 400+, which is a very nice sounding tube amp. But it weighs a ton. So lately I have been using the head from a Trace Elliot BLX SMC combo. When I need some extra warmth, or tube drive, I use a TubeWorks Blue Tube, which has a 12AU7 in place of the stock 12AX7. That combination through my Mesa/Eden 4X10 cab is just wonderful.
I've removed the head from Trace since.
(http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/trace.jpg)
What I expect from an amp is to hear my bass the way it sounds DI'd into a board, with a little extra girth.
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Amen brother! I loathe SVTs. I'm forced to use them at rehearsal studios, and cannot get a decent sound out of them to save my life. And I have no problems getting amps to sound good.
They just have awful EQ stacks. There's a big hump around 250Hz that you can't get rid of, and the low end is intentionally rolled off. The mids sound boxy.
...an "SVT" is not an SVT in every case. THE SVT is the first through fourth generation, two-channel, all tube head. Though there are various minor differences between vintages and manufacturers, their basic sound is very clean and very accurate with tons of low end, and a very large amount of gain should you desire it. The preamp only has the low mid bump if you put it there.
Later SVT Classic amps are a whole different ball of wax, voiced exactly the way you describe... and that's not even beginning to take into account the various s/s amps that have carried the SVT badge or the various models of SVT cabinets which entail a science unto themselves. Unfortunately age and disrepair have thinned backlines of REAL SVT's and the ubiquitous black stack on so many stages is a poor representation of a great sounding amp and cabinet. Even many of the real deal don't sound good because they're out there limping along held together by hack guitar amp techs.
Personally I have a Mesa 400+, which is a very nice sounding tube amp.
I have one too, and it IS a great sounding amp, but nowhere near clean enough to suit me in stock form. It's also based on the classic Fender Bassman tone stack: big round lows, scooped mids and present but tame highs. IMO if you want to hear that amp at its best, swap its driver 12AX7 for a 12AU7 and be amazed at the amount of clean power it suddenly becomes capable of putting out. It gets tones no SVT ever could, however it's also much easier to lose in a dense stage mix if you play loud.
What I expect from an amp is to hear my bass the way it sounds DI'd into a board, with a little extra girth.
I feel the same way to a point, however, what most people think of as "accurate" or "flat" is usually anything but a truly accurate bass sound. I do, however, also love most older Trace Elliot amps, tube and s/s.
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...an "SVT" is not an SVT in every case. THE SVT is the first through fourth generation, two-channel, all tube head. Though there are various minor differences between vintages and manufacturers, their basic sound is very clean and very accurate with tons of low end, and a very large amount of gain should you desire it. The preamp only has the low mid bump if you put it there.
See, that's the way I remember them, and recently used this one for a recording session:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/165116_10150092120359556_505289555_5855884_4212739_n.jpg)
It sounded nice and clean.
All the new ones sound like ass, and not good ass.
Later SVT Classic amps are a whole different ball of wax, voiced exactly the way you describe... and that's not even beginning to take into account the various s/s amps that have carried the SVT badge or the various models of SVT cabinets which entail a science unto themselves. Unfortunately age and disrepair have thinned backlines of REAL SVT's and the ubiquitous black stack on so many stages is a poor representation of a great sounding amp and cabinet. Even many of the real deal don't sound good because they're out there limping along held together by hack guitar amp techs.
Now interestingly, there was an article on the SVT in BassGearMag not too long ago, and the designer Bill Hughes said they voiced it that way to work on large stages. So they roll off the lows to not get boomy, and then boost at 250Hz to make up for the missing bass. The Ultra-Lo switch notches the mids. They showed a frequency response graph from a 1974 SVT and showed how you cannot set it flat.
Quote from Bill Hughes:
I had previously developed a style of equalization for bass while working as a freelance recording engineer. Cranking up a lot of low end boost was never a good idea when your target is vinyl. rather, removing the lower odd-order harmonics (as the SVT was set up to do) does way more to give the right illusion. I guess this is why bass amps with graphic EQ have fallen from vogue.
Still, I don't remember the old ones sounding so bad. Maybe they exaggerated the EQ curve?
I have one too, and it IS a great sounding amp, but nowhere near clean enough to suit me in stock form. It's also based on the classic Fender Bassman tone stack: big round lows, scooped mids and present but tame highs. IMO if you want to hear that amp at its best, swap its driver 12AX7 for a 12AU7 and be amazed at the amount of clean power it suddenly becomes capable of putting out. It gets tones no SVT ever could, however it's also much easier to lose in a dense stage mix if you play loud.
The only time mine would break up is if it was really cranked. And then I agree with you. When I bought it, I also had a GK 800RB, and that mopped the floor with the Mesa in terms of sheer volume. I use an 12AU7 in my BlueTube for the same reason, so I'll give it a try in the Mesa. Also, unfortunately when I bought the Mesa it was retubed with Ruby Tube power tubes, and Sovtec preamp tubes. I think the power tubs are too soft sounding, but it's an expensive proposition to retube that amp. It has been sitting unused for the last 10 years since it needs some minor repairs. I was using the GK in the mean time, and then I traded it for the Trace.
I feel the same way to a point, however, what most people think of as "accurate" or "flat" is usually anything but a truly accurate bass sound. I do, however, also love most older Trace Elliot amps, tube and s/s.
My thing is I want to hear the sound of my bass. Then I can take it from there. I like how the bass sounds direct, and the amp adds to that. My s/s Trace is one of the old ones. It's a great sounding head, and really loud for 150Watts. I've been meaning to check out some of the newer Trace gear.
Recently I tried out a couple of the new Hartke amps with the tube preamp. I liked it, but felt it lacked the warmth I get from the BlueTube.
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recently used this one for a recording session:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/165116_10150092120359556_505289555_5855884_4212739_n.jpg)
That's actually one of the new "Reissue" models produced by Loud Technologies. From all accounts they do sound pretty much the same, but internally they're nearly impossible to service at all.
Now interestingly, there was an article on the SVT in BassGearMag not too long ago, and the designer Bill Hughes said they voiced it that way to work on large stages. So they roll off the lows to not get boomy, and then boost at 250Hz to make up for the missing bass. The Ultra-Lo switch notches the mids. They showed a frequency response graph from a 1974 SVT and showed how you cannot set it flat.
I have that issue. They also couldn't get moe than 240 clean watts out of it. I like those guys, and I appreciate what they're trying to do, but just changing their methodology slightly would yield drastically different results, like Mythbusters. Here's a dirty little secret that really stirred up the kids on TB: WIRE doesn't have a "flat" frequency response. Since you're familiar with pickups, it's easier to relate to you. Just like output impedance affects a tube bass amp's performance, so too does the input impedance. If the magazine had used an inductive coil at roughly the average output imepdance of most passive pickups and not just a padded broadband voltage, you'd see the preamp AND power section is actually VERY flat. I also suspect that amp could have used some good TLC, too.
Also, unfortunately when I bought the Mesa it was retubed with Ruby Tube power tubes, and Sovtec preamp tubes. I think the power tubs are too soft sounding, but it's an expensive proposition to retube that amp.
It's doubtful that the tubes themselves need replacing. Tube replacement is THE single most exaggerated aspect of vintage amps I've ever encountered. Power transistors aren't rated for any more life than power tubes; Aspen Pittman just convinced everyone years ago that they needed to buy his Groove Tubes far more than necessary and the BS has only snwoballed from there. A simple bias adjustment would probably tighten up the sound of your output section and make your amp sound better than new.
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Very interesting posts guys!! Thanks!
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That's actually one of the new "Reissue" models produced by Loud Technologies. From all accounts they do sound pretty much the same, but internally they're nearly impossible to service at all.
Ah! Well it sounded pretty good. I wasn't playing it very loud, and half my signal was going through a Demeter tube preamp (which I liked better). I also preferred the tone of the Ashdown, which was plugged into the right SVT cab. The cab on the left is an old one. Generally I don't use amps in the studio, but the studio owner was excited about his amp and wanted me to use it. He also wanted me to pose with it. lol
I have that issue. They also couldn't get moe than 240 clean watts out of it. I like those guys, and I appreciate what they're trying to do, but just changing their methodology slightly would yield drastically different results, like Mythbusters. Here's a dirty little secret that really stirred up the kids on TB: WIRE doesn't have a "flat" frequency response. Since you're familiar with pickups, it's easier to relate to you. Just like output impedance affects a tube bass amp's performance, so too does the input impedance. If the magazine had used an inductive coil at roughly the average output imepdance of most passive pickups and not just a padded broadband voltage, you'd see the preamp AND power section is actually VERY flat. I also suspect that amp could have used some good TLC, too.
Good point. Still, some of the reissues sound exactly like they had shown, and also the way Bill Hughes had alluded too.
It's doubtful that the tubes themselves need replacing. Tube replacement is THE single most exaggerated aspect of vintage amps I've ever encountered. Power transistors aren't rated for any more life than power tubes; Aspen Pittman just convinced everyone years ago that they needed to buy his Groove Tubes far more than necessary and the BS has only snwoballed from there. A simple bias adjustment would probably tighten up the sound of your output section and make your amp sound better than new.
I'm sure you are aware that the 400+ is fixed bias. This is why Mesa wants you to by their tubes. Not saying that the bias couldn't be adjusted, but not easily.
The guy I bought it from runs an amp repair shop (Dave's Sound Repair in Whippany, N.J.). He's a good guy and generally knows what he's doing. I guess at the time the amp had Groove Tubes, and he hates Groove Tubes. He also installed some kind of protection circuit on the power tube grids. They have fuses and LEDs to let you know if you blew a fuse.
Different tubes do sound different however. I tried a few different of 12AX7s in my BlueTube, and before switching to a 12AU7, I used an old Sylvania tube, which sounded best to me. The amp needs a little servicing. Two pots got broken off (which they didn't use nylon shafts!), and then shortly after that it started blowing it's main fuse, so I stopped using it until I could get it looked at, and then just never got around to it. But now I want to start using it again.
A funny story that goes with that amp is that I saw the head at Dave's Sound one day, and had been thinking of getting a tube amp. So I ask about it, and he says "well if you want it you better buy it because some guy was asking about it and might come back tomorrow. So I bought it. A week or so later I see a classified ad for a Mesa cab, so I go to check it out. The guy tells me he was looking at a 400+ at Dave's sound, but someone else bought it, so now he doesn't need the cab... You should have seen the look on his face when I old him! It's a great sounding cab too. Loaded with Eden speakers.
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Works for me in a wide variety of applications
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/B-15N/P1050108.jpg)
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Works for me in a wide variety of applications
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/B-15N/P1050108.jpg)
That's the Demeter preamp I used in the studio. That thing sounds really nice! ;D
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But only *guitards* get these special tone adjustments on their Demeter amps....
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Ha ha, I wants me some terble!
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Ha ha, I wants me some terble!
Bass players don't need terble. :-X
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We're terble enough without it.
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I Love the early 70's Hiwatts. Very powerful amp. VERY CLEAN and just enough bite to rip someone's head off. I got some great info on how to dial it in from Tom Petersson that unfortunately I cannot reveal. Secret.
As for Ampegs...almost every studio in Chicago has a B-15N.....great recording amp...I like the original 1969-71 SVT heads and Squareback cabinets.
But.....if you ever get the chance...try a 200 watt Hiwatt through a squareback...It will freakin rip your head off!!!
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The Demeter VTBP-201 Preamp is based on the front end of one of Pete Townshend's Hiwatts, possibly the reason for the '201' designation.
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The 41 year old DR103S and 41 year old Marshall 4x12 slope cab I have work great for me. and as Bill noted, ooh that smell...
But also running a MAG300 combo with 4x10's so willing to play through anything that works, and both setups work for me...
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Good point. Still, some of the reissues sound exactly like they had shown, and also the way Bill Hughes had alluded too.
I remember the first time I ever fired up an SVT. I had just bought it with the money that I had saved to buy an engagement ring for a girl who said yes and then bolted. She did me a huge favor.
I'm sure you are aware that the 400+ is fixed bias. This is why Mesa wants you to by their tubes. Not saying that the bias couldn't be adjusted, but not easily.
It's nowhere near as difficult as you might think. Matter of fact, installing a variable adjustable bias control isn't even that big of a deal. Mesa does more than its own share of BS marketing, especially concerning tubes. When bias cannot be adjusted for aging, then tubes have to replaced any time they age outside of the bias voltage setting which makes them appear to be losing power and dying, when in fact, it's just a perfectly normal part of their operation. Typically after around a hundred or so hours of hard use, power tubes will need their bias reduced to maintain their rated output power. It's not because they're inferior; their cathodes have simply used more of the electrons deposited on the surface of the cathode and it takes a slightly higher voltage to energize the interior of the tungsten material of the cathode. Transistors do it too, but for different reasons, and since their operational voltages are orders of magnitude smaller than tubes', the loss of performance is much less noticeable.
The guy I bought it from runs an amp repair shop (Dave's Sound Repair in Whippany, N.J.). He's a good guy and generally knows what he's doing. I guess at the time the amp had Groove Tubes, and he hates Groove Tubes. He also installed some kind of protection circuit on the power tube grids. They have fuses and LEDs to let you know if you blew a fuse.
Screen grid fuses usually are there to prevent runaway from oscillation caused by a number of things. 400+'s don't run voltages high enough to justify such a measure, not to mention that 6L6GC's are generally not prone to screen oscillation anyway. If the amp ran at higher voltages and used EL34's, whose internal geometry and higher plate resistance makes oscillation more likely, I could see doing that (though I wouldn't.) It will help to keep the amp going in case of misuse (improper output loads, etc) but it would compromise the sound of the amp, limit its output power below rating, and could cause a bunch of other problems.
Groove Tubes never made their own tubes anyway, though they often implied or outright lied otherwise, nor were their ratings any real kind of operational parameter. They just bought various tubes wholesale, ran bias tests on them, and grouped simlilarly biasing tubes together. They also had a good algorithm which could predict how the tubes would age based on their cathode properties and grouped together tubes that they purposefully knew would become grossly mistmatched as they aged, typically right as their six month warranty expired.
Different tubes do sound different however.
That's a major understatement. Even among the same type, different makes and variations can have enormous variations in performance.
The amp needs a little servicing. Two pots got broken off (which they didn't use nylon shafts!), and then shortly after that it started blowing it's main fuse, so I stopped using it until I could get it looked at, and then just never got around to it. But now I want to start using it again.
Depending on which pots broke, that might be the problem, but not necessarily. You don't want nylon shafts for most amps anyway. If a pot breaks, it's better to short potentially dangerous voltage to the chassis case/ ground lug of the power cord.
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Feel I need to post this one - some old friends...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/lowend1/P4084612b.jpg)
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Oh now, you have some nice choices there......
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that pic is one of my favorites.
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whats on top of the Hiwatt cab? is that a Plush?
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whats on top of the Hiwatt cab? is that a Plush?
Yep. It is a 4000G that is currently over at Andy Fuchs' shop here in NJ. Andy owns the rights to the Plush name and wanted to document the amp. (He has been doing some R&D for a new line of amps under the name. See a demo of the prototype at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS1Y1gotfAM
Back to my 4000G - It is supposed to be a dual-purpose amp. Somehow, it is getting an upgrade from the EL34s it originally came with to the later, revised circuit with 4x6550s. The transformers in that thing are huge - when it's done it will probably be putting out close to 200 watts.
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i have a Plush Royal Bass. i've had it since 2000. i love it. 4 6L6's. and Telefunken preamp tubes!
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x120/yrofrat/hhhkkk001-1.jpg)
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Feel I need to post this one - some old friends...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/lowend1/P4084612b.jpg)
hoarding is not fair.....
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i have a Plush Royal Bass. i've had it since 2000. i love it. 4 6L6's. and Telefunken preamp tubes!
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x120/yrofrat/hhhkkk001-1.jpg)
Are those Guild humbuckers in that Ripper? I bet that sounds nice and thick!
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o0h yeah! the Guild "Sludge 'Buckers" i love 'em. so thick and raw. all dirt and mud.
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Funny, first time I picked up a Ripper, it reminded me very much of a long scale version of my (black) Guild JS II. :toast:
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o0h yeah! the Guild "Sludge 'Buckers" i love 'em. so thick and raw. all dirt and mud.
Really? I've just sold my M-85II because I thought this bass sounds too tame for a loud rock band.
I just couldn't rock with the thing. It is a lovely bass but it dind't sound thick and raw enough for me... :-[
YMMV
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with most of my other basses i use a Rat or Big Muff but with this one i dont need it. it distorts any amp. and loud. i used 500K pots all around.
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o0h yeah! the Guild "Sludge 'Buckers" i love 'em. so thick and raw. all dirt and mud.
You and chromium are still trying to peddle the "sludgebucker" label. :)
In my old JS-II I found them muddy in a laid back way but not raw at all.
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same laid back on the reiisue fender/guild i have.
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I always liked the Guild humbuckers. They sound a heck of a lot better than the Fender mudbucker, and are pretty even.
I have been a big fan of my Ampeg BT-15 for a while now. I hardly ever gig, but that is my go-to amp now. Old school, but lightweight, and sounds fantastic, like any Ampeg I ever owned. I never owned an SVT. I had an opportunity to buy the first year one (with the oddball tubes) but it weighed too much.
I don't have any preference between tubes and SS. Obviously you can get a lot more power in a manageable size with SS. I can't think of too many situations when I would need more than 100w even with bass. Headroom is nice, but deafening volume is what you typically get.
I like most amps, as they work or they are fun. Except an old Alamo bass amp I had - that stunk.
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but remember the JSII is a short scale Mahogony bass while i have 'em in a 34" alder Ripper.
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but remember the JSII is a short scale Mahogony bass while i have 'em in a 34" alder Ripper.
Mine is leaving on the UPS truck today. :-[
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Been a while now since I've heard them, but I remember the pickups in my JSII having very prominent mids and being rather punchy - possibly on par with the sound of an unfiltered mudbucker. They didn't strike me as docile, but it's all relative and maybe even varies between specimens(?)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/guild/DSCF0003.jpg)
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Been a while now since I've heard them, but I remember the pickups in my JSII having very prominent mids and being rather punchy - possibly on par with the sound of an unfiltered mudbucker. They didn't strike me as docile, but it's all relative and maybe even varies between specimens(?)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/guild/DSCF0003.jpg)
Are those originals? If so, they aren't the ones I'm talking about.
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Are those originals? If so, they aren't the ones I'm talking about.
Pretty sure they were; somebody had just removed the cans from them...
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/ebay/bass_parts/DSCF2031n.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/ebay/bass_parts/DSCF2030n.jpg)
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I've never played a solid state amp that I've actually liked, and I've played out through a lot of rig combinations in the short amount of time I've been trying out gear. Sure, I can get 'my' sound out of it, but it's much harder to dial in for me, and I always feel like I sound glassy and way too up front... kind of like ear buds vs open ear headphones. To me, it's like trying to get a Strat to sound fat when what you want is Les Paul tone. Of course you can do it, it's just gonna be different.
In all fairness, though, I've heard some other bassists get great tone out of solid state amps who swear that they can't get a tube amp to deliver their sound. And I believe them. There is no one stop, end all gear setup that makes every player sound good. Tone is a sum of all the parts, and at the end of the day it's all subjective anyway.
As for me, I'll stick to my V-4B.
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All I can say is that no matter what kind of amp I play through, when I get it set up, I sound just like me.