The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Fender Basses => Topic started by: Iome on October 01, 2010, 01:44:46 AM
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Hi lads, i hope somebody can help me with my problem.
I have a '78 P bass on which i've had a Squier baseball neck for 10+ years. Now i've used that neck on my homebuild Fenderbird and wanted to put the original neck back on the P. The problem is that it's much thinner than the Squier neck and, although it's the original neck, i'm unable to lower the string action, the saddles can't get lower while touching the plate and the action is still way too high. The neck pocket hasn't been stripped down and neither has the neck heel (they both have the original stamps).
I don't think the bridge is original so i would like to know if someone gould give me the minimum height of an original Fender bridge. The one on my bass has a 2 mm plate and 8 mm saddles making the lowest possible string heigh,t at the bridge, 10 mm (1 cm/0.3937" ;D ).
I wanted to sell the bass because of economic issues, but i sure can't get much out of a bass that needs extra wood to raise the neck. I'm open for suggestions, thanks. Here's a pic that says it all.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff101/iomepics/Ponte1.jpg)
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A wood shim can do wonders here. I used a piece of a business card in my p clone.
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Yes, but that's what i wanted to avoid... :-[
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Maybe it had a shim in the first place? I know alot of fenders had shims from the factory.
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I would put a shim in and forget about it ! Biz cards work well.
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Shimming a bolt on neck is standard procedure in. You may need more than 1 thickness of business card on that one. Sometimes I use a shim made of 6mm x 45 mm sandpaper. The lower the grit number the thicker the shim.
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Damn, i guess the shim is the only solution then.. :-[ Nobody know's about a super low bridge? I guess it doesn't exist then.. I'll probably have to sell body and neck separatly. Thanks for the replies guys.
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If you shim the neck and it's set up well I don't think anyone buying it would care at all that it had that shim. As was mentioned, they sometimes needed one from the very start. As long as the neck isn't warped you're much better off selling the bass whole and you wouldn't be 'cheating' because of that shim.
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Damn, i guess the shim is the only solution then.. :-[ Nobody know's about a super low bridge? I guess it doesn't exist then.. I'll probably have to sell body and neck separatly. Thanks for the replies guys.
NOT NECESSARILY. You'll be surprised at how much the angle changes with a business card thickness shim in the right place. More than likely it came with a shim from the factory.
Do you have an excessive amount of relief in the neck? Your P most likely needs a tuneup, not a major overhaul.
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The neck is "straight as a gunshot" (as we say around here), the problem is that usually a Fender neck is 2.54cm (1") thick, mine is around 2.10cm (0.827"). Thats quite a difference. Would you suggest to insert a shim only in the lower part (at the end of the neck) of the pocket, making a kind of home made micro tilt, or should i raise the whole portion within the pocket? I'm afraid that tilting the neck could damage it over time.
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A small shime at the far end of the neck works wonders. it will tilt the neck back like a gibson normally is. Lately i have been using a strip of "mesh sheetrock sandpaper" (the black stuff with the holes - not sure what they call it)., a peice about 2 inches long by about 3/4 inch wide. the mesh will also help stop any sideways movement if the pocket is not snug enough as it will grip both sides even on laquer. you might want to add some toothpicks and glue into the neck holes to also give it a little more grip as i find the holes will get wider each time you screw them. ;)
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Yeah, using a shim is not a sinful thing.
Rick
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Since the problem is that the neck is thinner than usual, I would start by shimming the whole neck pocket to raise it up. If it turns out that you also have a neck angle issue, then you can step the shims to create a better angle.
FYI, most business cards are .010 or .011 in. thick, at least over here. Bicycle brand playing cards are .011 in. thick.
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.022 inches is about .6mm. IMO it is better than using a 4mm (1/8+") complete shim simply because with .022 of shim once the job is done it won't be noticeable. it also doesn't reduce the effective depth of the neck pocket as much. You can just fold the business card in half. I've used up to 1mm without it affecting the neck down the road. Don't overtighten the screws that don't have shim under or close to them. Pros like Dan Erlewine recommend a tapered shim, I tried to do it once but it was too much of a hassle.
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I'll try the card tonight, hoping it's enough because i need to rise it pretty much.
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if the shim doesn't work trying sinking the bridge into the body. can't go to far down or you will have to route channels to get the string balls to sit right.
jim
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No, i'm not going to route the body. Anyway, i shimmed (if you can say that) it last night with a business card. I've cut it to fit the end of the pocket until 5 mm behind the rear screws. It helped, i've got a pretty nice action now, but the saddles are still at their lowest. Tonight i'll try to fold a card and cut it to fit like the first, so i have some height left to move the saddles, i'll make some pics for some comments/advice. Thanks
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You've got to shim harder then. Shim is not a sin, brotha! :D
If I were you, I'd put a straight thin of wood under the whole neck route, and then put a shim on the bridge side of the neck route. I'd call it "a shim sandwich". ;)
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AMEN BRO',
i was thinking about usinng a straight piece of wood to raise the whole neck...hmmm...donno, i'll try tonight when the kids sleeps..
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Have you ever seen a business card made of wood? Some cabinet makers and carpenters use them around here. Real thin shaved piece of wood for a card. I think they would be perfect.
Rick
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I've never seen a business card of wood, but i know that carpenters has some thin wood they use for similar purposes. Last night i looked for some veneer wood down in the basement, but couldn't find any, i know i have some, somewhere.
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Shim it!! Adding a shim is standard procedure - some basses come from the factory with shims. I have never understood why some folks think they are bad. They're just one of the necessary tools.
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i know Pilgrim, but you know people won't buy a bass that need something between neck and body. What bothers me is that my bass hasn't an angle issue between neck and body, the neck is just too thin...
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i know Pilgrim, but you know people won't buy a bass that need something between neck and body. What bothers me is that my bass hasn't an angle issue between neck and body, the neck is just too thin...
Don't Ask Don't Tell. You have a nonstandard neck, it obviously came from Fender that way. They shimmed it, somebody bought it. Hell, I've got shims with Ibanez STAMPED on them.
Shim Ain't No Sin...It's a design feature ;D
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Credit cards make extreme shims, too...
I had a couple of sixpences (small obsolete British coin used by Brian May as picks) in my first to try and sort out neck issues...
There is an old expression... what the eye don't see...
As long as she plays well what's the problem...? ;)
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Ok, I must find an old american business card or, even better, a fender card from the seventies, at least if the buyer finds it i'll tell him it's an extra value, a vintage shim ;D Now theres a card in from the baker in front of my office...
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I've got some cardboard boxes in the shed... :P
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i know Pilgrim, but you know people won't buy a bass that need something between neck and body. What bothers me is that my bass hasn't an angle issue between neck and body, the neck is just too thin...
Since when won't they? You would be surprised. And that's with basses and guitars that were made to go together. In your case, you have a neck that isn't the thickness that was meant to go with the body, so all the more reason to shim.
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Back in the '70's I used one of these on my P bass. Worked like a charm! Put the flat side towards the body and it was a Fender Thin pick.
(http://i51.tinypic.com/14kgyno.jpg)
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i know Pilgrim, but you know people won't buy a bass that need something between neck and body. What bothers me is that my bass hasn't an angle issue between neck and body, the neck is just too thin...
I respectfully disagree. First, there is no need to tell them, because it's a normal adjustment. Second, they're not going to know. Third, it's not really a relevant concern - because it's a normal adjustment and therefore unremarkable.
I would not mention a shim in the neck of any of my basses to a buyer - because it's nothing worth mentioning.
If there were a structural flaw in the bass that some kind of unusual shim was correcting, I'd mention it - but a normal shim is simply not remarkable.
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I hope you're right, but having done the work myself i feel obligated to tell. I'd like to know if i was buying..
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I respectfully disagree. First, there is no need to tell them, because it's a normal adjustment. Second, they're not going to know. Third, it's not really a relevant concern - because it's a normal adjustment and therefore unremarkable.
I would not mention a shim in the neck of any of my basses to a buyer - because it's nothing worth mentioning.
If there were a structural flaw in the bass that some kind of unusual shim was correcting, I'd mention it - but a normal shim is simply not remarkable.
Well Said!
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I hope you're right, but having done the work myself i feel obligated to tell. I'd like to know if i was buying..
That speaks to your own solid sense of personal integrity, and I have no problem with that approach.
Myownself, I'm middlin' honest. Where's my beer? :P
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Well...nobody's perfect, mate... ;D
I'll see if i can get a wood shim from a carpenter i know.
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Hmm... does it need to be matching tonewood...? ;D
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It needs to be a torn matchbook cover from the sleaziest topless bar in town ;D
(.016 inches)
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Suppose it gets excited... :o
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Suppose it gets excited... :o
I'll have to raise the bridge....
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Iome you dont sound convinced so I figured some proof of a genuine Fender shim was needed.
This is from my 82 JV Jazz bass
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/82%20JV%20Squier%20Jazz/82-squier-jazz-pocket.jpg)
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Wow, it's even signed with TM and serial number. Do you have the same problem as me (referring to the bass, not us.....) or just some sort of alignment issue?
I dropped by the carpenter this morning, he gave me a .05 mm mahogany sheed, so i've got shims for the rest of my live now.
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Is that a side shim?
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I was wondering about that too, but didn't dare to ask...
but then again, what need should there be for a side shim when you got the neck bolted?
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Maybe a cnc mistake or something? Shims save lives!
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That is genuine factory fitted and I haven't touched it. Thats where they put it.
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We believe you ;D is it wood or paper?
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a kind of cardboard
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a kind of cardboard
...which is made from wood
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...which is made from wood
;D
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My former 67 Coronado Bass II had fiber or cardboard factory shims at both ends of the neck pocket to raise the whole thing up. They weren't there as an afterthought, they were shaped to fit the pocket.
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Hi. Just read this while having toast and marmalade - how English!!
To set yoiur mind at rest, I have a LOT of instruments (not as many as Uwe - Bows gracefully!!)
and every now and then I take necks off for overhauling.
Trust me - I have found more than 50% of them with factory shims - usually a thin strip
of Nylon or in some cases sandpaper, with a heavy grit, stapled to the neck FROM THE FACTORY.
I am certain they are factory, as they all look the same.(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy74/FlatEricPics/IMGP1370.jpg)
This is off an early 80's Ibanez Blazer - cracking bass - stripped for a full overhaul and
stuck to the neck. . . . . Standard issue Ibanez shim!
I could show you loads of examples, from all sorts of makers.
From my experience, Fender have no problems with shimming necks - for them, along with other
maufacturers, it is standard proceedure.
I have also seen shims front and back, as mentioned by Dave W.
How high is your action at the 12th, with just a rear shim?
Cheers. :)
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You guys are convincing me ;)
FlatEric; the action at the 12th fret is 5 mm with the saddles at their lowest.
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You guys are convincing me ;)
FlatEric; the action at the 12th fret is .05 mm with the saddles at their lowest.
Just Choked on my sandwich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o
As I am an engineer, I have all the gear to measure things accurately, so hear goes. . . . .
A hair from my head measures .05mm, one from my beard, .08mm, standard pinter paper, .09mm
Almost all my basses are set to 2.3mm t 2.5mm, I am SO impressed!!! ;D
Are you sure about that?
I really look forward to your reply.
All the very best.
Eric. :)
I will dig out a pic of my '78P
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My '78.
Not played this for YONKS!
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy74/FlatEricPics/Precision78.jpg)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy74/FlatEricPics/78P.jpg)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy74/FlatEricPics/78P2.jpg)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy74/FlatEricPics/PJP-1.jpg)
Booftiful!!!!
:)
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Still eating? Questi americani....
Well, you know, i've lived for many years here in Italy now, and beside determinating the dimensions of the actual railroads, space ships and other advanced tecnology like plumming, the romans has given us the capacity to measure invisible distances... ;D
Sorry mate i mixed up our own unquestionably superior metric system, may i suffer in hell resting on burning shims and bowed Fender necks for the eternity... I fixed that, the shim is 0.5 mm thick and the action is 5.0 mm at the 12th fret.
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WOW, that bass is still new, very nice. But isn't it a '79 with the S9 initials?
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Errrm, yes, I think you are right! 1979!
5mm action at the 12th, is WAY too high!
Didn't realise it was that extreme.
I asume that the neck is straight - ish?
:)
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The neck is straight, just not high enough. I'll go down and try the new wood shim, maybe a double layer, that'll be 1 mm.
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Ok, that worked, but i've got a buzz in two places on the G string. Two frets are a little raised at the end, damn gotta take it to a luthier...or press it down some way
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If the frets have sprung up, it's sometimes possible to wick some superglue beneath when you clamp them down. If not, you may have to have a luthier put little falloff at the end of the board.
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If the frets are loose, a tiny dab of super glue and pressure may secure them. If they're not loose, it should be pretty cheap to have a luthier level the frets.
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Ok, that worked, but i've got a buzz in two places on the G string. Two frets are a little raised at the end, damn gotta take it to a luthier...or press it down some way
Spend the Luthier money on this book and some tools. It will pay for itself very quickly (not to mention improve your shim technique).
http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Player-Repair-Guide-Book/dp/0879309210
This is the 3rd edition, I have the first. Don't think there's much difference
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Are you saying that my shim technique needs improvement? are you? ;D looks like an interesting book, i might give it a try.
I'll try to press down the two frets.
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Are you saying that my shim technique needs improvement? are you? ;D looks like an interesting book, i might give it a try.
I'll try to press down the two frets.
No, just saying that if you had this book you would know that shimming ain't sinning- even with a vintage Martin. ;D
Seriously, that book will answer questions you didn't even know you had and will result in a better set up, intonation and general understanding on what makes a bass an instrument as opposed to an "axe." When you go to a luthier you're paying him for his knowledge and experience. Dan Erlewine is arguably the most knowledgeable and experienced luthier in the USA. He sometimes gets carried away with specialized tool use but at the least you get a good idea of what's possible to do yourself without making a disastrous mistake.
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No, just saying that if you had this book you would know that shimming ain't sinning- even with a vintage Martin. ;D
Seriously, that book will answer questions you didn't even know you had and will result in a better set up, intonation and general understanding on what makes a bass an instrument as opposed to an "axe." When you go to a luthier you're paying him for his knowledge and experience. Dan Erlewine is arguably the most knowledgeable and experienced luthier in the USA. He sometimes gets carried away with specialized tool use but at the least you get a good idea of what's possible to do yourself without making a disastrous mistake.
+1 very good book. easy to understand too !!!
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+2
I bought that book in 1994 and it's paid for itself many times over.
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As someone suggested, i've checked the buzzing frets and have seen that some are actually loose at the edge, there's two on the E side and two on the G side, they goes back into the slot with the pressure of a finger so i have decided to try and glue them. But how the hell do i clamp them? I don't have some kind of neck holder and i can't fasten the clamp (with a piece of wood to protect from marks) to the round back of the neck. I guess there's a logic answer, but i don't get it, can you help me, thanks.
I guess i really need that book, guys.....
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With CA glue of the right viscosity, no clamp is needed. You just have to hold the fret down for 15 seconds or so...but get the book before you glue your finger to you fretboard!
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...but get the book before you glue your finger to you fretboard!
I swear that's what I'd do!
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I'd comment but my fingurz is gluuuued to da frety#rw*e[rjboard.......
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Could be worse: Woman Mistakes Superglue for Eyedrops (http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/health/superglue-eyedrops-mistake-10-4-2010)
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;D ok, i need the denser one then. I think i can handle it, i've been glued to many thinks over the years and got away with it ;D