The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bill's Shop: Projects, Mods & Repairs => Topic started by: ack1961 on August 26, 2010, 09:04:51 AM
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Hello,
I posted this question in the Luthier's section on TB, but I also wanted to see if anyone at The Outpost had any opinions...
I am building my first bass guitar and I am a bit stumped when it comes to the finishing aspect. Not especially craft-worthy, I have done quite a bit of research which has allowed me to get this far. Please overlook my lack of tech-speak when it comes to this craft. I'm getting there.
In a nutshell, I am shaping and finishing a body out of a 1.75 inch thick 2-piece slab of Alder - a nice cheap introduction to bass building - I wanted to keep the finish natural to expose the grain, knots and other characteristics of the wood. I intend to use MinWax Clear Gloss Polyurethane spray to finish.
I've read many articles and I own a few books on building, but I'm constantly seeing unbelievable results from people who have used their own slants/interpretations on proven finishing techniques...which leads me to a couple of questions.
First, a synopsis of what I've done so far:
After shaping and routing, I started sanding. Using a block, I started with 80, then 120, then 150, then 220. I then put 220 on an orbital sander and continued. I got the surface very even and smooth, where you couldn't really feel the grain.
I then put on a light coat of Sanding Sealer and let it dry - The top and back looked beautiful, the sides got darker than I hoped - the body is a Telecaster guitar slab shape (no body/comfort contours). I lightly sanded the whole body down with 220, and it got substantially lighter.
I put a second light coat of Sanding Sealer on and the top/back looked great. The sides are still too dark for me, so much so, that I went back to 100 grit and removed the SS and went through 120/150/220 to get the sides back in good shape.
All along, I kept small samples of Alder off to the sides and experimented with them. One of the finishes that I really like on the sample is Teak Oil. It just glows the most beautiful amber, and I'd like to use it.
Finally, my questions:
1. Will the Teak Oil co-exist on top of the 2nd sanded coat of SS?
2. Is it "safe" to use Teak Oil on the sides now that I've sanded them down (after 2 coats of SS)?
3. Spray-on Poly OK on top of Teak Oil?
I've posted a few pictures of the build here:
http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=4322.0
I'll appreciate any constructive assistance that is offered.
Steve
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The best place to research finishing the the Reranch refinishing forum at: http://www.reranch.com/reranch/
To the best of my knowledge:
1. Will the Teak Oil co-exist on top of the 2nd sanded coat of SS? OILS DO NOT TYPICALLY GO WELL OVER S&S COATS. OILS UNDER NITRO S&S WILL WORK, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THE OTHER WAY AROUND. ALL WOOD FINISHING OILS NEED TO SOAK INTO THE GRAIN AND S&S WOULD PREVENT THAT.
2. Is it "safe" to use Teak Oil on the sides now that I've sanded them down (after 2 coats of SS)? IF IT'S RAW WOOD, YES IT'S SAFE.
3. Spray-on Poly OK on top of Teak Oil? I DON'T THINK SO. AGAIN, MOST FINISHING OILS ARE COMPATIBLE WITH NITRO BASED FINISHES, BUT NOT POLY. ONCE YOU GO DOWN THAT POLY ROAD, YOU ARE PRETTY MUCH STUCK WITH USING POLY-BASED PRODUCTS.
In the end, it's always best to test on scraps of wood. Hope this helps!
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If it's actually a pure oil, then the answer is no. The problem is that wood finish manufacturers often misrepresent what they market as oil finishes. I've never seen a teak oil that's actually a genuine oil finish. Every one I've seen is either a varnish (often a long oil varnish for outdoor use) or a varnish/oil mixture. Trying to get a straight answer out of many manufacturers is difficult but if it says it cleans up with mineral spirits or paint thinner then it's not a true oil.
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If it's actually a pure oil, then the answer is no. The problem is that wood finish manufacturers often misrepresent what they market as oil finishes. I've never seen a teak oil that's actually a genuine oil finish. Every one I've seen is either a varnish (often a long oil varnish for outdoor use) or a varnish/oil mixture. Trying to get a straight answer out of many manufacturers is difficult but if it says it cleans up with mineral spirits or paint thinner then it's not a true oil.
Thanks for the response. Cleanup does say Mineral Spirits or Thinner, so I guess it's not a true oil. Anyway, yesterday (it turns out that it went against some people's advice), I put a coat of Teak Oil on and let it sit for an hour, then rubbed it in (what's the worst thing that could happen? A ruined finish? Sandpaper cures those kind of mistakes).
Anyway, it has a beautiful, silky golden glow, and I'm going to wait about 72 hours then spray on some MinWax Clear Gloss Poly.
What I'm really happy about is the consistency between the front/back and sides. The sides were so much darker after the Sealer application, I ended up sanding the sides down quite a bit. Here's some pictures in bad lighting (the Sun's just coming up)
(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz62/ack1961/Telecaster%20Bass%20build/SSPX0517.jpg)
(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz62/ack1961/Telecaster%20Bass%20build/SSPX0516.jpg)
Thanks for the help.
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The best place to research finishing the the Reranch refinishing forum at: http://www.reranch.com/reranch/
To the best of my knowledge:
1. Will the Teak Oil co-exist on top of the 2nd sanded coat of SS? OILS DO NOT TYPICALLY GO WELL OVER S&S COATS. OILS UNDER NITRO S&S WILL WORK, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THE OTHER WAY AROUND. ALL WOOD FINISHING OILS NEED TO SOAK INTO THE GRAIN AND S&S WOULD PREVENT THAT.
2. Is it "safe" to use Teak Oil on the sides now that I've sanded them down (after 2 coats of SS)? IF IT'S RAW WOOD, YES IT'S SAFE.
3. Spray-on Poly OK on top of Teak Oil? I DON'T THINK SO. AGAIN, MOST FINISHING OILS ARE COMPATIBLE WITH NITRO BASED FINISHES, BUT NOT POLY. ONCE YOU GO DOWN THAT POLY ROAD, YOU ARE PRETTY MUCH STUCK WITH USING POLY-BASED PRODUCTS.
In the end, it's always best to test on scraps of wood. Hope this helps!
Thanks for the help and the links. The sides turned out great - I'm really glad that I didn't settle for the way they looked and then re-sanded them.
The body finishing has been the most frustrating part of this build.
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I don't understand using teak oil over sanding sealer or under poly. What exactly is it and what is it supposed to do? I'm pretty sure it's little more than a wiping polyurethane since it cleans up with mineral spirits. Finishing techniques have gotten way beyond esoteric with major marketing to sell the same stuff under different names. Teak Oil = Snake Oil IMHO. ;D
For info on wood finishing with rubbing oils, google 'French Polish', a many hundred year old finishing technique that is basically a cheesecloth ball soaked in shellac and rubbed into scraped wood until it shines like a mirror.
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I don't expect your poly top coat to stick to the oil. If it does, I will be totally surprised.
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I don't expect your poly top coat to stick to the oil. If it does, I will be totally surprised.
I was wondering about the same thing. Might Tru-Oil be a workable choice for the top coat? It's another of those "mixed bag" finishes, but it dries with a hard finish.
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Minwax says:
"a topcoat such as Minwax® Helmsman® Spar Urethane can be applied over Minwax® Teak Oil. Although we recommend that Minwax® Teak Oil be reapplied to dry, worn out wood, a topcoat such as Minwax® Helmsman® Spar Urethane will offer additional protection. Wait a minimum of 72 hours after applying Minwax® Teak Oil before applying additional topcoats."
Polyurethans is an oil finish, you reduce/clean it up w/mineral spirits. Watco, Danish, Tung, etc oils are basically the same as teak oil.
Minwax also says to use teak oil on bare wood or wood that has all the old finish removed.
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I'll start reading up on Tru-Oil and see if that's a viable top-coat for my teak oiled project.
Thanks for all the research, comments and ideas.
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I'm going to disagree with some of the comments above.
Your teak oil finish is definitely not a real oil finish. It's either a varnish (polyurethane or another resin) or an oil-varnish blend. If it's a varnish, you should have no problem with the topcoat.
All varnishes have some kind of oil in the formula, but it's combined chemically with a resin and other ingredients to make it a varnish. So a true varnish has no oil in the finished product. Long oil varnishes have more oil in the formula which makes the finished product more flexible, mostly these are intended for outdoor use. Short oil varnishes are harder and more wear resistant but don't hold up to weather conditions.
Tru-Oil is not an oil no matter what evasions the manufacturer uses. It's a wiping varnish. The "modified oil" in the MSDS is a buzzword for alkyd resin. It builds, like all resin finishes.
More later.
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I'm going to disagree with some of the comments above.
Your teak oil finish is definitely not a real oil finish. It's either a varnish (polyurethane or another resin) or an oil-varnish blend. If it's a varnish, you should have no problem with the topcoat.
All varnishes have some kind of oil in the formula, but it's combined chemically with a resin and other ingredients to make it a varnish. So a true varnish has no oil in the finished product. Long oil varnishes have more oil in the formula which makes the finished product more flexible, mostly these are intended for outdoor use. Short oil varnishes are harder and more wear resistant but don't hold up to weather conditions.
Tru-Oil is not an oil no matter what evasions the manufacturer uses. It's a wiping varnish. The "modified oil" in the MSDS is a buzzword for alkyd resin. It builds, like all resin finishes.
More later.
Dave's knowledge trumps my basic understanding of things. The compatibility between "varnish" (A non-oil based product) and poly is new to me. I'm looking forward to learning more about this phenomenon............ :popcorn:
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Thanks for chemistry lesson Dave!
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Dave's knowledge trumps my basic understanding of things. The compatibility between "varnish" (A non-oil based product) and poly is new to me. I'm looking forward to learning more about this phenomenon............ :popcorn:
And it trumps mine as well!!
I feel like Boon in Animal House....
"You better listen to him - he's in pre-med!"
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and just to fully clarify, here's the process/layers (top-to-bottom)
Watco Teak Oil
Sanding: 220/400 (Sanded sides 120/150/220/400)
MinWax Sanding Sealer
Sanding: 220
MinWax Sanding Sealer
Sanding: 80/120/150/220
Bare/new Alder (1.75 inches thick)
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Polyurethane should work after 72 hrs. Scuff sand w/400 and shoot it! Sand lightly after 24 hrs if necessary and spray second poly coat.
I really believe you can skip the teak oil and second sealer coat (most sealers advise to use only one coat) and go directly to spray poly next time. Try it on some scrap. Alder is a close pored wood and shouldn't require a lot of sealing. I suspect the darkness you saw was normal for end grain, it is the most porous part of the wood and really needs to be sanded back after sealing to lighten up. I would use 320 before going to 400 from 220. 180 grits is a big jump when you are below 400. Looking good so far. A good rule of thumb is don't go down in grit number after a coat unless something is seriously wrong.
This is pine progressively sanded up to 240 with 1 coat of sealer sanded back w/320 and then 400 waiting for a transparent black nitro toner and clear topcoat if it ever stops raining! Pine is much more porous than alder and nitro much thinner than poly.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/2010%20Fenderbird/DSC01983.jpg)
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looks like that is coming along nicely DDGB, with your history of furniture making, what is your opinion about a Tung oil (the real stuff) and a bees wax finish? i don't want to steal Ack's thread so you could open another here in projects if you wish.
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looks like that is coming along nicely DDGB, with your history of furniture making, what is your opinion about a Tung oil (the real stuff) and a bees wax finish? i don't want to steal Ack's thread so you could open another here in projects if you wish.
Every finish method has it's plus and minuses. It's all about technique. Tung oil and beeswax are very easy to apply and maintain, the more you work it the better it looks. Lacquer and other spray finishes are less forgiving, your first steps determine the outcome and repairs are much more difficult to make.
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Pure tung oil has to have driers added at the least if not thinners. One the finishes that I've read most about is a mix of varnish, tung oil ( or linseed oil ) and turpentine - this recipe probably predated mineral spirits being commonly available.
I can't remember what Maloof's finish is but it's a witches brew as well and is it's very forgiving.
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Dave's knowledge trumps my basic understanding of things. The compatibility between "varnish" (A non-oil based product) and poly is new to me. I'm looking forward to learning more about this phenomenon............ :popcorn:
Poly is a varnish. A urethane resin varnish. The most common other resins used are phenolic and alkyd. Waterlox is an example of a phenolic resin varnish.
Just to be clear, when I mention an varnish-oil blend, I mean that the product consists of a varnish (a chemical combining of resin and oil) mixed with oil. More often than not, this is done for appearance reasons. These dry softer than a varnish alone. Of course how hard a varnish dries varies from one product to another.
If you haven't read it, check your library for Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishes." Or buy from Amazon. It's worth it.
Here's (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish2.html) an informative article by Flexner about so-called oil finishes.
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and just to fully clarify, here's the process/layers (top-to-bottom)
Watco Teak Oil
Sanding: 220/400 (Sanded sides 120/150/220/400)
MinWax Sanding Sealer
Sanding: 220
MinWax Sanding Sealer
Sanding: 80/120/150/220
Bare/new Alder (1.75 inches thick)
Watco Teak Oil is a varnish-oil blend. Shouldn't be a problem topcoating with a spray-on poly so long as you let it thoroughly cure first. However long the manufacturer says.
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Pure tung oil has to have driers added at the least if not thinners. One the finishes that I've read most about is a mix of varnish, tung oil ( or linseed oil ) and turpentine - this recipe probably predated mineral spirits being commonly available.
I can't remember what Maloof's finish is but it's a witches brew as well and is it's very forgiving.
Turpentine is distilled from pine resin and does predate mineral spirits which is a petroleum distillate. There used to be a big tung tree plantation around here, the oil comes from the seed of the nuts and it is similar to linseed oil but has a golden color. Technically tung and linseed oil ARE driers. Linseed oil used to be the drying component of traditional enamels, replaced by alkyds in modern paint.
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the one time i went AWOL (which i don't talk about much) the Marine company pusher that was helping me pass as a jarhead had me service the wood on my 14 (proves i am old as the 16 was not common issue yet) with a third part Tung oil, a third bees wax and a third turpentine. it waterproofed the wood. of course we had to do this inside and out on the stock but the results were great. the shine wasn't the best but more of a satin finish and it was easy to repair if one got a scratch in the wood. if we wanted it darker for camo reasons then a little boot polish helped that mixture.
the point being a walnut stocked piece in the swamps of Lejeune held up well in and out of the brackish water and was restored quite easily to inspection ready with little maintenance to the wood after training. the drying time was decreased with the increase of the amount of turpentine.
sorry i left out the point of this earlier. i'm getting more absent minded.
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Watco Teak Oil is a varnish-oil blend. Shouldn't be a problem topcoating with a spray-on poly so long as you let it thoroughly cure first. However long the manufacturer says.
Appreciate the info.
I'm waiting at least 72 hours - maybe more because of the sealer - before I spray on the first coat of Poly.
Should be interesting.
I'm going to practice on something, because I'm brutal with spray cans.
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Turpentine is distilled from pine resin and does predate mineral spirits which is a petroleum distillate. There used to be a big tung tree plantation around here, the oil comes from the seed of the nuts and it is similar to linseed oil but has a golden color. Technically tung and linseed oil ARE driers. Linseed oil used to be the drying component of traditional enamels, replaced by alkyds in modern paint.
Pure tung oil takes forever to cure - i tried it once in shop class - that paddle I made for one of the coaches is still probably too sticky to use ;). The stuff I've read said to use japan drier and to thin it a bit so that it would penetrate the wood.
Dave's right - most everything you buy that says tung oil is just a thinned varnish or poly with a small portion of tung oil added. I been buying oil based poly for years and cutting it about a third with mineral spirits and making my own wiping varnish - works great and the price is right.
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Pure tung oil takes forever to cure - i tried it once in shop class - that paddle I made for one of the coaches is still probably too sticky to use ;). The stuff I've read said to use japan drier and to thin it a bit so that it would penetrate the wood.
Dave's right - most everything you buy that says tung oil is just a thinned varnish or poly with a small portion of tung oil added. I been buying oil based poly for years and cutting it about a third with mineral spirits and making my own wiping varnish - works great and the price is right.
So, if you put one of the bastardized oils/varnish over poly, it will actually stick? I'm surprised and learned something new!
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I would be comfortable betting that something like Formby's would stick just fine as it seems to be more of a coating than a penetrating oil. I would think that a homebrew mixture would not.
Don't get me wrong I like the off the shelf stuff - it's just not really tung oil.
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I would be comfortable betting that something like Formby's would stick just fine as it seems to be more of a coating than a penetrating oil. I would think that a homebrew mixture would not.
Don't get me wrong I like the off the shelf stuff - it's just not really tung oil.
Formby's Tung Oil Finish is a wiping varnish, despite the name. See the Bob Flexner article I linked to above.
I agree that it's a good finish. If it's the look you're going for, no reason not to use it.
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Don't get me wrong I like the off the shelf stuff - it's just not really tung oil.
+1...I think they sprinkle a few drops of tung oil over the batch and voila! 'Tung Oil'. Or maybe they wave the magic tung nuts at it.
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Well, I've used Formby's and it did a nice job as the only finish applied to an old project. I also like Danish Oil a lot as a single finishing "oil."
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Watco has worked for me.
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I love Watco! I use it on all of my cherry projects and anything else that an oil finish will work on. Just wish their colors were stronger.
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+1...I think they sprinkle a few drops of tung oil over the batch and voila! 'Tung Oil'. Or maybe they wave the magic tung nuts at it.
That would make a great band name! "TUNG NUTS".
I and two other guys from my last band (Vintage Winds, code for "Old Farts") are forming a new one - gained a singer and a new drummer. Band name: BEEN THERE DONE THAT.
I really appreciate the depth of knowledge about finishes that's reflected in this thread.
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Watco does well on most woods and it's an easy single finish with stain. But as a varnish/oil blend it doesn't dry as hard or build as well as a varnish. Fine for something that doesn't get a lot of wear; a hard topcoat (spray poly, Formby's, another varnish etc.) will give it more wear resistance.
There are always tradeoffs. Phenolic varnishes are more abrasion resistant than poly varnishes, but they darken the wood much more. If you've ever used Waterlox Original (a phenolic resin varnish) you know what I mean about darkening. Varnishes for exterior use like spar varnishes are made to be more moisture resistant (many use phenolic resin) but they have more oil in the chemical formula to be softer and more flexible so they won't crack and let in more moisture. Best bet is to use a hard topcoat made for interior use.
Look at the photo in the Flexner article (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish2.html) that shows the varnish vs. varnish/oil blend dried on a piece of glass.
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For my tastes, Danish oil on an old project, or new, that I want to have that gently aged worn look and show off the grain is just right. Durability isn't an issue for me as I don't abuse my basses or play them in the rain. I also love the way Danish oil ages. It works for my simple tastes.
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You guys have no idea how much I appreciate all the discussion and knowledge transfer. It has given me confidence that I've never had when it comes to woodworking.
While shopping for #0000 steel wool, I ran across the wipe-on version of the MinWax Poly High Gloss.
Since I'm a maniac with aerosol, I picked this stuff up. I've been practicing my spraying with a small chunk of Alder off on the side that I've finished the same as the actual body.
Here's what I've done since I my last post:
Wiped on 1st coat of Poly, waited 3 hours, then lightly sanded (more of a light rub with #0000 wool), cleaned the piece, then wiped on 2nd coat of Poly, waited, then a bit of a rub with #0000.
The piece was dry to the touch after 2 hours, and it has a nice shell on it. It's not as glossy as I was expecting, but I think I can bring out a shine later...maybe? (advice welcome)
Anyway, I let it sit overnight, and I'm thinking about hitting the 3rd Poly coat with the spray. Like I said, I've been spraying a small piece of Alder off on the side, and it has a shinier finish than the actual body with the wipe-on Poly.
QUESTION: I have the bass body hanging from a thick wire in my workshop. I've been applying the wipe-on Poly by unhooking the piece and holding it by the pickup cavity, then wiping on the Poly, then re-hanging the piece, then finishing the wipe-on. Obviously, this technique will not work with spray. If I hang the body and spray, I'm afraid of runs.
My practice piece is pretty small and doesn't require a great deal of spray.
Any tips on spraying the body - is it OK to do while hanging straight up?
Here's the updated process/layers (top-to-bottom)
Sanding: #0000 Steel Wool
MinWax Poly (wipe on) 2nd coat
Sanding: #0000 Steel Wool
MinWax Poly (wipe on) 1st coat
Watco Teak Oil
Sanding: 220/400 (Sanded sides 120/150/220/400)
MinWax Sanding Sealer
Sanding: 220
MinWax Sanding Sealer
Sanding: 80/120/150/220
Bare/new Alder (1.75 inches thick)
Thanks,
Steve
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If you just want a gloss finish just wipe on several more coats of the poly and wetsand with 1000 and 1200 grit wet/dry paper and finish it off with a polishing compound. The very best resource is the ReRanch sites how to section. There's more setail available that what you probably wamt to do with this build but it is a great resource.
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You can spray in just about any position IF you take it easy and go light. They're not kidding when they say 2-3 light coats are better than one heavy one. Runs are just a result of applying too much material at one time - and thereby, proving that gravity works.
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If you just want a gloss finish just wipe on several more coats of the poly and wetsand with 1000 and 1200 grit wet/dry paper and finish it off with a polishing compound. The very best resource is the ReRanch sites how to section. There's more setail available that what you probably wamt to do with this build but it is a great resource.
Right. The wiping version is thinned, so there are fewer solids than in the spray product. That's why you need more coats. If you're getting good results wiping but aren't sure of your spraying skills, just wipe on more coats.
You'll want to make sure it's thoroughly cured (not just dry to the touch) before final wetsanding and buffing.
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You can spray in just about any position IF you take it easy and go light. They're not kidding when they say 2-3 light coats are better than one heavy one. Runs are just a result of applying too much material at one time - and thereby, proving that gravity works.
Like many things, spray painting requires taking it to the edge of disaster to achieve the best result. You want to put the maximum amount of material per pass after the first tack coat. Otherwise you end up spraying a rough finish that requires way too much color sanding to get it smooth enough to buff out. Its called spraying 'wet coats' or 'double coats' which involves making a pass twice over the same spot and then overlapping each double pass by half on the next pair. It takes practice but in the long run will save you material (especially lacquer in spray cans) by putting the max amount of paint on the project, not lacquer dust on your floor. It's worth sanding out some runs to learn the technique IMO. Important things are maintaining a consistent distance from surface being painted, correct speed of the pass and not 'fanning' (moving your wrist which puts more paint in the middle of the pass than at the ends).
This is 8 ounces of black toned lacquer (on entire body) sprayed over 1 coat sanding sealer sanded to 320. It will get scuff sanded with 400/600 and a final 8 oz of clear topcoat.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/ERGO/DSC02153.jpg)
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well, I've done 4 coats of wipe-on Poly to the body front, back & sides.
The headstock was tricky...i had to take the finish completely off the top edge of the headstock - I couldn't get the new finish to match the original:
(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz62/ack1961/Telecaster%20Bass%20build/SSPX0524.jpg)
(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz62/ack1961/Telecaster%20Bass%20build/SSPX0525.jpg)
(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz62/ack1961/Telecaster%20Bass%20build/SSPX0523.jpg)