The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Rickenbacker Basses => Topic started by: uwe on September 16, 2009, 04:23:13 AM
-
Bass Professor, a German muso mag, is doing a Ric feature over several issues and wanted pics of 5- and 8-stringers (my problem child: since I ill-advisedly bought it, it has devoured two sets of original Ric trussrods who are now replaced by Ibanez trussrods which are thicker and stronger, the fretboard had to be taken off and the neck honed down, the bridge was countersunk into the body to enable sensible upper register action without having to make the neck too flat and I had the sequence of the octave strings changed, which makes fretting easier and less "buzzy" - now it finally plays like it should have from the start :rolleyes:). Bass Professor got a hold of me and this is what resulted:
Ze Double-Whammy:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC53851.jpg)
Body close-ups:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC53911.jpg)
Note: String sequence changed from original regular string/octave string to ocatve string/regular string for better playability.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC53901.jpg)
Full size:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC53881.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC53891.jpg)
Headstocks:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC53951.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC53941.jpg)
Bridges (4003S/8 sunk into body via extra-routing to achieve playable action):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC5392.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC5393.jpg)
-
Cool! Nice to have such pics from your own basses!
-
Cool! Nice to have such pics from your own basses!
+1 So true!
-
Nice basses!
I'd love to get one of the Ric 8s (I really think that Ric sound mates nicely with the 8 string), but your experience with that thing really scares me from buying one that I can't lay my hands on first. Is there any place you know with some background info on these neck issues? Just curious if they might have been centric to the 4008, 4003s/8, some specific "runs" of these basses, or all of them (a lot of tension there, afterall). Are they all ticking time bombs? or is it just the luck of the draw?
The Ibbys that I'm also watching for look to be really overbuilt in typical fashion for that era, with dual rods and all. That'd probably be the smarter move, but those Rics are just so... (http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/smilies/hc_love-1.gif)(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/smilies/w00t.gif)(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/smilies/bananadead3.gif)
-
Of course there's the very good Rickresource Rickenbacker forum. If you can find answers, you'll find them there. Berth knows all about it.
-
Uwe, what year is your 4003S/8? Mine's a '93 and couldn't be more stable. Yours might just have a severely wacky piece of maple for the neck. ??? Having said that, I've also seen some where the body wings are de-laminating form the neck.
-
My luthier said it was a wacky piece of maple alright, just not grown right. And the Ric truss rods are puny for that kind of pull, they kept extruding underneath the TRC from day one, pushing against it. My Gibson Les Paul Standard with just one trussrod has no issues whatsoever with the pull from 8 strings. I'm not saying that all Ric 8 strings are like mine, but I would certainly recommend that anybody buying one should check the specimen out before in person (like how far can the bridge still go down and how far can the trussrod nuts still be turned).
Mine was a 1999, possibly 98. They were deleted shortly after and I already had to wait for mine for more than six months. Right out of the case, the action was impermissibly high (and I prefer medium, not low action, I avoid fret buzz like the plague).
-
Great pictures! That's really too bad about your S/8, mine (a '93) hasn't had any problems.
Never saw the S/5 tailpiece before - you've got the bridge piece cranked way down - my 4008 is like that too. The string openings are different on the 4008 - it's just wide open:
(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5746/4008tailpieceflashdw5.jpg)
-
Uwe, didn't John Hall try to help you with the problem? Sent you new truss rods or something like that?
-
Good looking Rics, Uwe!
Did you try turning the rods inside the channels to a backward bow? We discussed this here about a year ago.
This is not the first time I hear about S8's with maxed out truss rods and neck issues. It seems that some of them can't handle the pull of 8 strings.
-
John Hall had replacement truss rods sent to me directly via the Italian distributor so I wouldn't lose time repairing it, that was a nice move, I had contacted him via email out of the blue.
-
And yes, Ilan, we tried your helpful recipe of "turning the truss rods around", I even made printouts of your instructive pics and the good instructions and gave them to my luthier. But the neck had such a natural curve (or perhaps an acquired one by then) that the Ric truss rods where at their limit pulling it straight once the bass was strung.
Anyway, it's all good now. It's still not really a versatile instrument and frankly I do not think that the history of rock needed to be rewritten had 8-string basses never been invented (last time I innocently stated that at the Dudepit several years ago, the King's X fans were all over me! ;D ), but I like that the Ric 4003S/8 is passive whereas more modern 8-strings all tend to be active. It never fails to impress at rehearsals or gigs, but I generally grow tired of its sounds (and how it inhibits my playing) after two or three songs. You can be this huge baritone rhythm guitar with it and chord a little, but its almost impossible to play rhythmically intricate patterns with it that groove and are fluid-sounding. Whenever I play it, I either sound like Tom Petty (the rhythm guitar effect) or Gene Simmons with it (that slightly heavy-handed, stalking feel it then gives my playing). Frankly, I never heard the Cheap Trick guy play anything impressive on his 8- and 12-strings either, all his good runs (and he has a few) are executed on 4-stringers.
-
They fascinate me, like almost all technology, but I just don't get the point... sorry... ish...
-
They fascinate me, like almost all technology, but I just don't get the point... sorry... ish...
I don't think I could/would fit an 8 into my band context (for the same reasons that Uwe described), but I do also like to play by my lonesome and make strange recordings to terrorize my family and anyone who happens across my webpage. One of these would fit that objective! I do have a nifty octave divider (dual dividers, with mixable 1-4 octaves down - mwhaha) that can give an impression of an 8string, but its not quite the same.
-
I guess I can be "guilty" of liking the sound, for "fills"... during my "hair-metal" (I remember hair... :sad:) days I used to mostly play in 3 piece, or 3 + vox, and tended to "chord" a lot of stuff during the guitarist's solo work... listen to Andy Fraser on "Mr Big" and he's doing just that, even with "mud"... so they have there uses... maybe there could be a useage for a "hybrid" six (eight) string, with 2 paired strings (E/A) and the rest as regulars, or maybe BEAD... that might be interesting... ;)
-
I'd do it the other way around, E and A regular and D and G with octaves strings. And the whole thing short sclae so that there is less tension on the strings.
-
Another variant, oh Lord of the Strings... that would give much more "treble" for chording work... anyone tried this before...?
-
Hello Uwe,
I'm mainly a lurker but your Rick s8 neck solution prompted me to post and ask a few questions. I also have a Fireglow 4003s8...mine is from 1987 and nearly mint... and I've had similar problems with there being too much tension on the neck for it to play comfortably! When I string it as a 4 banger the neck is straight and true and the action low...with 8 strings the action is pretty high and you can see a visible bow in the neck. I have used the lowest tension strings that I could find (TI's for the 4 main strings and some low tension piccolo strings for the octaves (I can't remember the brand but I got them from just strings.)
When I bought the bass years ago I knew little about ricks and didn't realise at the time that someone had already very skillfully lowered the entire bridge by routing the body out in the same fashion as your luthier has done. I have removed the truss rods (they we're very hard to get out and I really had to kind of tap them out very slowly...they were a little easier to re-install but still pretty hard compared to other rick rods that I've pulled and re-installed and the action remained the same.
Your luthier's use of 2 stronger Ibanez rods has me wondering if this solution might get my bass back to playable status. Do you have any info on where your luthier got the rods or which style of Ibanez bass they came from? And, of course if any one else reading this post has any suggestion I'm all ears. I have thought of just plugging the peg holes in the headstock and reshaping it into a 4003s but, that would be a last resort...I'd probably sell it first.
Thanks, David
-
Hi David, so I'm not the only one then with an eight-string Rickenwarper! That feels good, I was beginning to wonder ...
My Luthier didn't even say whether the new truss rods where from an Ibanez bass and from a guitar. All I know that it was an upmarket model, because the truss rod had that Ibanez metric nut (similar to a Ric nut, but slightly larger) they only use on their more expensive models while the cheaper stuff just has the standard allen wrench socket. But I'll find out for you - will send my luthier an email and revert ...
Regards
Uwe
-
The Rick truss rods (post about 1984) work the same way as conventional Gibson and Fender rods. But they're smaller diameter. Gibson and Fender use 3/16" while Rick uses two 5/32" rods.
I'm no metallurgist, but I don't think a different metal composition would make any significant difference in the bending resistance. Instead, I suspect the rods used by Uwe's luthier are larger diameter than the Ricks, and that he enlarged the routs to fit them.
-
Uwe...thanks for your speedy reply. Yes, I've heard of at least a few of us 8 stringers with this problem, and after re-reading your post it's clear that the fretboard was removed, so, as Dave pointed out, there's a good chance that your new rods are a larger diameter size. If that's the case I'm not really sure what I can do short of major luthier surgery. Anyway, let me know what your bass doctor says. Thanks, David
-
Whoops, I edited above to note that the Rick rods are 5/32" diameter, not 5/16"
Believe it or not, increasing the diameter from 5/32" to 3/16" will increase the cross section area by 44% (well, you'll believe it if you remember your geometry lessons).
-
Of course the Ibanez rods are thicker than the Ric rods, it has nothing to do with the metal, didn't I make that clear? Sorry then. But while the Ibanez rods were/are thicker, they stll fit the Ric routes, no further routing was necessary, the Ric routes have ample room.
The fretboard came off not for truss rod channel routing but for honing the warped neck in a way that it would counteract string pull rather than support it. It was that badly warped, a banana even without tension.
-
It was that badly warped, a banana even without tension.
So are we allowed to call your 8-string Bananabacker? :P
-
Of course the Ibanez rods are thicker than the Ric rods, it has nothing to do with the metal, didn't I make that clear? Sorry then. But while the Ibanez rods were/are thicker, they stll fit the Ric routes, no further routing was necessary, the Ric routes have ample room.
The fretboard came off not for truss rod channel routing but for honing the warped neck in a way that it would counteract string pull rather than support it. It was that badly warped, a banana even without tension.
Yes, you did say they were thicker, but that was on page one. You expect us to go back and read your every word? :P ;)
Since the existing rods can be replaced without removing the fretboard, and since the slightly larger rods will fit in the existing channels, it's likely the larger rods could be fit in without major surgery. If the neck isn't a banana, that might do the trick without having to plane the neck. Obviously this wouldn't have solved all your problems, but maybe it could in David's case.
-
Thanks guys!
So, it does sound like there's a chance that thicker rods might do the trick...I'm wondering if I could just grab some rods at the big box store (lowes/depot) and tap the ends. I know they sell different diameter steel rods at about 36" but I'm not really sure as to the variety of thickness...I might check it out tomorrow.
Is there any reason that a steel rod from depot wouldn't work (except that the diameter might be too big/small?) Also, as I stated earlier the Rick rods were pretty hard to get out and re-install, any ideas as to why that might be? They didn't appear to be badly bent if my memory serves me correct (it's been a couple of years since I pulled the rods.)
-
The problem with rod at the store is that it's allthread. Gibson and Fender rods are solid except at the ends, like the Stew-Mac traditional truss rod kit. This obviously would be stronger than allthread. You use a die to thread the ends.
I don't know if Ricks are that way too, I would guess so. Ilan?
I also don't know for sure if 3/16" solid rod would fit, I would guess so based on what Uwe said. I think I'd test first with a dowel or pin before getting rods cut to length and threaded at the ends.
There's a thread somewhere in the archives of the Rick Resource Forum about removing and replacing truss rods. Maybe Ilan knows where it is.
-
Dave, thanks for the info. Our Lowes and Depot both have solid steel rods in varying diameters. I know for a fact because I just used 12 of them on some leaded glass windows that I made and installed...the homeowners wanted the "old" method of rebars on their reproduction windows which involves soldering 4" pieces of copper wire to the intersecting lead joints and then twisting the copper wire around the solid rebar to give the windows extra strength and stability. and yea, I always get tap and die mixed up. Modern rick rods are solid and round. Thanks and I'll see what diameters are available tomorrow. dm
-
As dminer wrote, post-85 Ric rods are solid and round. I suspect that using allthread rods could damage the "packing" inside the channels, under the fretboard.
From Uwe's description it's hard to tell what did the trick, the new thicker rods or re-gluing the fretboard. Sometimes removing the fretboard isn't necessary, heat treatment makes the old glue melt a little and the fretboard can slide a little bit, then the neck is cooled in a back-bow and the glue hardens again. There's also a method of refretting with thicker tang fret wire. This also creates a back-bow.
Removing the modern rods isn't difficult. What I do is remove the TRC and pickguard, then unscrew the hex nuts, tap the rods gently into the neck until the acorn nuts slide out at the body end. Remove acorn nuts and tap back into the neck. Pull the threaded ends from the headstock (protect the finish with a soft cloth first). To install new rods go through the same steps in reverse order.
-
In Uwe's case, I think planing the neck did the trick. His neck was probably unusually bad. The larger rods are obviously a help now.
-
They certainly make me feel better! The bass has been stable since the operation, I even had to raise action a little and relieve the neck somewhat too as the summer temperatures rose. It used to be: tighter and lower before the operation, I'd set up the bass, play it, put it away and four weeks later it was back to being a banana. And I now have strings with more pull than ever.
-
Ooops, I just heard from my luthier that he made those replacement rods himself! More news as I get it!!!
Diameter is 5 mm, slightly less than 1/5" which is a manly diameter for a trussrod (and the Ric has two).
-
3/16" = 4.76mm so if your luthier got 5mm rods into the channel, hopefully David can coax 3/16" rods in without having to remove the fretboard.
-
It took some drastic measures but I'm happy you managed to stabilize the neck in the end. How about a soundbite?
-
As he has now told me, he used these here, regular 3/16 rods, the 5mm was an approximation, don't ask why he stuck 7 mmm Ibanez truss rod nuts at the end though:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Truss_rods/Adjustable_truss_rods/Traditional_Truss_Rod.html
-
It took some drastic measures but I'm happy you managed to stabilize the neck in the end. How about a soundbite?
I have no recording stuff, Ilan! Never been a home recorder, sorry. But I used it on a track with my old band Downing Beat and it is still on their site, the track is "Giving and Taking":
http://www.myspace.com/downingbeat
Sounds like a 4 string bass mostly and where it doesn't sound like that it sounds like a friggin guitar as in the verses where those ascending high parts are actually played by me not the guitars! :mrgreen:
-
As he has now told me, he used these here, regular 3/16 rods, the 5mm was an approximation, don't ask why he stuck 7 mmm Ibanez truss rod nuts at the end though:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Truss_rods/Adjustable_truss_rods/Traditional_Truss_Rod.html
Imperial inner diameter and metric outer diameter? It's good to know we still have some influence in metric-land. 8)
It might be that a 5/16 outer diameter nut would leave too little room to get a wrench around and turn. There may not be enough depth to the adjustment area under the truss rod cover.
Uwe: Now that you mention it, that was probably the reason as those 7 mm Ibanez truss rod nuts are very similar to the Ric ones, just a bit larger, but less in diameter than a Gibson bell nut would be.
-
Excellent bass sound and I also enjoyed the song, Uwe. I'm not sure though that without prior knowledge, I would have suspected this was an 8 string!
-
Thanks, Ilan, yeah, hard to hear as an 8-string, I just added a sentence to my original posting.
That is an effect you have with 8-strings, once other instruments and especially guitars join in, the 8 string effect is largely swallowed up and it doesn't sound like the intro of The Byrds' Mr. Tambourine Man or Tom Petty's American Girl anymore! That said, I'm not automatically able to pick out a 12 string electric or acoustic guitar amidst other instruments in any song I hear either. Other people probably can.
-
Thanks for all of the info from everyone...I bought 2 - 3/16" solid steel rods from lowes today and I'll proceed with my experiment...I'll still have to do the threads and find an appropriate nut that will fit in the headstock truss rod groove with a little room to spare for the nut driver. Would it be practical to try and thread the rods to rick nut specs or would that make the end of the rod too weak and prone to snapping? Just thinking out loud...any ideas on a source for the correct style but bigger rick style nuts? Thanks to all and wish me luck. David
-
Good luck!
Don't thread to Rick's specs, IMO that's asking for trouble at the very place you're exerting force.
If a standard 5/16 OD hex nut doesn't leave you quite enough room, it's always possible to grind down the sides of the hex. Or Uwe might be able to ask his luthier if he has any spares.
-
This guy offers Ibanez 7 mm truss rod nuts (and even 8 mm ones, but these might be too big):
http://www.ibanezrules.com/parts.htm#Parts
Look under "misc" pretty much at the end to find it, the part name is 4TRN007MM.
But possibly a Fender bullet nut might work too as the Ric cavity is long, just rather shallow:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Truss_rods/Adjusting_nuts.html
-
Hello all and hope your having a great new year. I thought I'd post an update to my earlier 4003s8 truss rod issue. Over the holidays I had a chance to work on my bass. This first picture shows the string heighth with full 8 string tension before the truss rods replacement. (sorry for the lousy pic but you can still see the problem) the gap was a good 3/16"+ and the neck had a substantial bow.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/dminer/2006_0218xmas090027.jpg)
This second picture shows the older rods. Much to my surprise they were already 3/16" rods that the previous owner had installed, although they used the original acorn nuts and coupling nuts so the rod had been threaded to the older, smaller size...also, the coupling nuts had been cut down to about half of their length.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/dminer/2006_0218xmas090038.jpg)
This third pic shows where the previous owner had inset the bridge to try and lower the action.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/dminer/2006_0218xmas090031.jpg)
I bought 2- 3/16" rods from lowes and the acorn and coupling nuts from ace and made the new rods using a 10-24(3/16") die to thread the rods and then installed the new rods...total cost, about $15 including the rods, nuts, washers,die and a new nut driver.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/dminer/2006_0101oak0028.jpg)
Now, I'm slowly adjusting the neck but it is almost perfectly flat and the action is within a 1/16" off of the fretboard. I might even have to raise the bridge a tad. Here is a picture of my s8 with her Rickenbacker sisters, a 66 4005 and a 76 4001
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/dminer/3ricks.jpg)
Thanks to everyone for their input and I'll be able to play this bass again. A special thanks to Uwe and Dave. Uwe for his great info and Dave for the suggestion to not re-thread to the original specs. Cheers and a great New Year to everyone! David
-
Nicely done and most important, it worked.
Since it already had 3/16" rods, seems like the problem must have been not being able to apply enough force to move the rods enough. That's why I suggested not threading down to the Rick specs.
The problem with this type rod apparently is not the strength of the rod, but the way force is applied. Acoustic guitarmaker William Cumpiano used it in his guitarmaking book years ago but there were similar problems so he revised (http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Book/textbook.html#Improved%20truss%20rod%20design) it to make the rod move the way it was intended to. Unfortunately you don't have room in a Rick to use his solution.
-
Good news! Man your 4003S/8 had issues just like mine! Wicked instruments they are.
Frankly, I think it was a irresponsible of Ric to bring these basses out the way they were. It cannot have escaped Ric that the string pull caused issues on many of these - expensive - basses if not on all. And rather than deleting the model quietly and keeping their mouths shut about it, they should have offered an after-market technical solution for the handful of people who actually committed the folly of buying one. I waited almost a year for mine (shortly before deletion of the model) and already upon arrival in the shop the neck showed that there would be issues.
A few strips of graphite would have gone a long way if Ric would have preferred to stick to their puny truss rods and that is not rocket science.
Uwe
-
There's got to be a "legal" issue here...? (genuine - not joking - in the UK we call it "not of merchantable quality")
-
Uwe, I have read on other forums of at least a few other people with 4003s8's with the exact same problem. But, there are also many owners with no issues at all.
Since my 87 was in almost mint condition when I got it in or around 2001, (and I got it from a local, small, vintage music store), there is the possibility that it was sent back to rick by the original owner and they did the mods. Or, maybe it didn't develope the bow until after the warrenty had expired.
I asked John Hall once about the imbedded bridge assembly and he replied that that did not sound like anything that they would have done at the factory. But, I recently read somewhere that some of the model 4008's were shipped from the factory with the lowered (imbedded) bridge assembly. I have never seen a close up picture of one, and I can't remember where I read that...maybe the rick forum. Whomever did the bridge rout on my bass did a very clean job and if you didn't look closely you'd never know that it's not stock.
I agree that rick certainly should have done more research before sending these out...perhaps a wider/thicker neck, larger rods, graphite re-inforcement and an 8 saddle bridge would not have been too terribly hard to implement.
I am really happy with the results and even though I play in a blues band these days I still think I'll take it to a rehersal just to hear it with a full band.
The last time I played it live was with an Americana/rock band and we had my rick 4003s8, a Burns double 6 electric guitar, an electrified/acoustic slide mandoline, and a jerry jones electric sitar! There were a LOT of strings on stage that night!!! cheers, David
-
I assume that the quality of the maple used in various eras might also have something to do with it. My luthier said: "They didn't exactly use a great piece of wood."
-
I think that part of the problem lies in that the S/5 and S/8 were essentially converted 4-stringers, with neck construction that was designed to handle the pull of four strings.
-
I don't think they ever used anything other than hard maple for necks. A given piece of hard maple may turn out to be a lot less stiff than average, but that wouldn't account for the problem unless yours were the only one.
I agree with Ilan, these just weren't engineered for the pull of 8 strings.
-
Of course its foremost the pull - the pull of an eight string is simply brutal. On a four string the D has the highest pull, but on an eight string the octave E alone has more pull than a regular D because it is basically a D string two steps up. And that is in addition to the D string and its octave and so forth ...
What I'm saying, some 8 string Rics seem to hold up, others don't. With everything else assumed equal, I think the stiffness of the individual maple used could be a decisive element whether the rods can still barely withstand the pull or give up.
As I've mentioned before, my Gibson LP 8 string is a hastily modded 4 string, but the (regular) neck holds up perfectly and looks like it could actually withstand the pull of another 4, i.e. 12 strings.
With all that said, it's a lovely bass when it actually works! Most 8 strings sound a little rash and offensive, not the Ric.
-
If I had an S/8 I'd probably try to tune it a whole step down to Dd-Gg-Cc-Ff for less tension. Then maybe capo at the 2nd fret to get open Ee-Aa-Dd-Gg strings. Or not. Worth a try.
-
I've done that out of desperation. The capo'd stuff sounded terrible and I don't have much use for a D tuning. In any case, it seems to hold up fine now though you never know what that long cold dry winter will do to it. Rics suffer in European winter quite a bit - the Starfighter of basses, made in California for use in California only! ;)