The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: bholder on March 11, 2017, 11:30:29 AM
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Hi, new here - I tried on TalkBass and someone suggested I try here, so any of you Gibson experts: I've been trying to date my 70s SG since I got it in '79, without any luck, I've been to all of the sites that show up on the first few pages of a google search still nothing. Serial number is 738265, stamped on the back of the headstock along with "Made in USA" so it's post 1970. The number would make sense if it had an S suffix, but it doesn't. Checked the control cavity too, no sign of anything there. Any ideas anyone? Anyone know of a good forum to ask on?
It's a fairly standard SG with except it has black minihumbuckers, and a Gibson stamped Bigsby style tailpiece, "Nashville" bridge (I think), small pickguard.
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A couple more pics
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http://www.guitardaterproject.org/gibson.aspx
After entering that serial number here and clicking the extended search box, page down the screen. It says 70' 71' or 72'
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Thanks! I tried that site, but didn't try the extended search (didn't notice it). Excellent. Still not very specific, but I know which year's catalogs to check.
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Thanks so much for narrowing down the years! Searching for "1972 Gibson catalog", I found this '73 leaflet: http://www.vintageguitarandbass.com/gibson/catalogues/1973_solidbody_1.php
(http://www.vintageguitarandbass.com/graphics/gibsonSolidBody73_1.jpg)
(http://www.vintageguitarandbass.com/graphics/gibsonSolidBody73_2.jpg)
It's the 3rd one down, 1973 SG special, with the "optional Bigsby vibrato"! Nailed it, thanks so much! I've been wondering for 38 years!
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This both why I love this place and also why I don't bother much with other forums. Welcome aboard, bholder! Even if you're just here for your SG question, I'm still glad you found what you needed.
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Thanks, I think I'll hang out here some, since I'm mostly a bassist anyway.
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The Guitar Dater Project has some flaws but in this case, it's correct.
With a dot neck and binding, yours is an SG Special from that era. With the black min-hums, I'd place it as a 70 or 71.
That bridge is not a Nashville bridge, which wasn't introduced until about 77, after Gibson opened their Nashville factory.
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It's called an "SG Special"... budget range instrument... I own one too... mine is within a date range 72-74...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/SG/bridge.jpg)
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/SG/feb099.jpg)
Mine's butchered but been owned by me since the 70's and bought this beastie as a package with my 1970 Marshall 4x12 slope cab and 1970 Hiwatt... nice guitar but not very subtle... bridge is dodgy and as for the Bigsby... :o
Mostly use mine for slide... used to be all orange once too... started off tobacco red... came in cherry and tobacco...
Modify the Bigsby to reverse where the strings locate... makes it a lot easier to re-string, as in the pic...
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Good idea. Was it hard getting the string holding bar out?.I see from that catalog that what a band mate had back about 1977 was in fact an sg11.kinda bright pickups .i.i.r.c .Whodathunk.
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Not hard at all, from what I remember... just retained by a circlip... can get a present pic if reqd... just span it 180 degrees... had to "break" the bridge too, to get the low E intonated... reversed the saddle...
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The SG Special was mid-line, not a budget model. The SG I and II were the budget models (companions to the SB basses of that era).
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I wonder if the sg I and II had the same pickups as the SB350 and SB450,they sure look the same.
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I always use this page on Fly Guitars to date Gibson instruments.
http://www.flyguitars.com/gibson/serial_numbers/
This in combination with the potentiometer dates should narrow it down pretty accurate.
http://www.flyguitars.com/gibson/bass/parts/pots.php
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The SG Special was mid-line, not a budget model. The SG I and II were the budget models (companions to the SB basses of that era).
Always thought they were cheapies as it was a "copy" Bigsby... paid £200 for the 3 items... mind you, I paid £200 for the PC too...
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The Guitar Dater Project has some flaws but in this case, it's correct.
With a dot neck and binding, yours is an SG Special from that era. With the black min-hums, I'd place it as a 70 or 71.
That bridge is not a Nashville bridge, which wasn't introduced until about 77, after Gibson opened their Nashville factory.
Thanks, so is there a name for this bridge type? Looking to see if I can find a roller bridge replacement that will fit on the existing bridge studs...
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Cool, never saw one of those. Guitarist I played with in high school had the SG Standard right above yours. Loved that guitar. Jimmy McCulloch played one with Wings. I think I've seen that bridge referred to as a "harmonica bridge".
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Always thought they were cheapies as it was a "copy" Bigsby... paid £200 for the 3 items... mind you, I paid £200 for the PC too...
No, it's a real Bigsby, not a copy. Branded Gibson, just as Schaller and Kluson branded their tuners with the Gibson logo. See, now your SG just became more valuable!
I wonder if the sg I and II had the same pickups as the SB350 and SB450,they sure look the same.
Not sure, I think so. The predecessor SG100 and 200 had the same pickups as the SB300 and 400.
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Thanks, so is there a name for this bridge type? Looking to see if I can find a roller bridge replacement that will fit on the existing bridge studs...
Cool, never saw one of those. Guitarist I played with in high school had the SG Standard right above yours. Loved that guitar. Jimmy McCulloch played one with Wings. I think I've seen that bridge referred to as a "harmonica bridge".
Right. That bridge was made by Schaller and is usually called the Schaller harmonica bridge. It hasn't been made by Schaller for years. Kluson makes a replacement (https://reverb.com/item/4070310-kluson-steel-harmonica-bridge-nickel-with-brass-saddles-fits-gibson) that supposedly doesn't require any modification and seems to be more substantial than the original. I don't know if the Schaller roller bridge would fit the studs, and even if it did, it probably wouldn't align b/c the harmonica bridge mounting is straight across while the ABR and Nashville are angled.
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That bridge looks conspiciously similar to what was on the SB-300 and -400. Wouldn't be surprised if that stemmed from Schaller too. I never thought about it that way, but now it does look a bit German as hardware goes.
(https://www.premierguitar.com/Stream/StreamImage.aspx?Image_ID=E95F3214-21C5-42DA-BC3E-E95C00000232&Image_Type=image)
In this article it's called a "Multiplex" bridge - same era too: 70/71.
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Replacing_Saddles_on_a_1971_Gibson_SB_300_Bass
Speaking of SB-300s, look who playwd one:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/6f/86/90/6f8690b052ca17e02fcb3d40768865d5.jpg)
The young Austrian bassist would later on - with some Dutch help by the Bolland Brothers - go on to an international career ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVikZ8Oe_XA
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Right. That bridge was made by Schaller and is usually called the Schaller harmonica bridge. It hasn't been made by Schaller for years. Kluson makes a replacement (https://reverb.com/item/4070310-kluson-steel-harmonica-bridge-nickel-with-brass-saddles-fits-gibson) that supposedly doesn't require any modification and seems to be more substantial than the original. I don't know if the Schaller roller bridge would fit the studs, and even if it did, it probably wouldn't align b/c the harmonica bridge mounting is straight across while the ABR and Nashville are angled.
Hey thanks for that Kluson replacement bridge link! Excellent! :)
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The bridge/Bigsby combination on mine just does not work... instantly puts the beast out of tune... bridge wobbles on the studs...
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The bridge/Bigsby combination on mine just does not work... instantly puts the beast out of tune... bridge wobbles on the studs...
A Bigsby that causes a guitar to go out of tune?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/davepix/humor/Casablanca_ClaudeRains_Shocked.jpg)
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The bridge/Bigsby combination on mine just does not work... instantly puts the beast out of tune... bridge wobbles on the studs...
You have the Gibson/Bigsby with the white solid teflon-like bearing? I think it's the bearing that does not age well. I used this unit on a 6 string (EB-6) Project, but I replaced the teflon bearings with needle roller bearings. Took some time to locate the bearings, but when fitted the unit stays in tune very well! And it's a rather cheap mod.
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A Bigsby that causes a guitar to go out of tune?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/davepix/humor/Casablanca_ClaudeRains_Shocked.jpg)
Given the excesses that followed the introduction of Floyd Rose and Kahler tremolo systems in the early 80ies, I'm not sure whether the inherent limits of the Bigsby were necessarily a bad thing. :-X
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The bridge/Bigsby combination on mine just does not work... instantly puts the beast out of tune... bridge wobbles on the studs...
Yeah, trying to find a roller bridge that will fit mine (may require a visit to a local machine shop for mods). Even used very modestly, completely out of tune, worse than most Bigsby equipped guitars.
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The bridge on the SG special looks more like the guitar version of the evertilt two point bass bridge to me. No wonder a Bigsby would wreak havoc with it. I'm shuddering at the notion of a Bigsby being on an EB1. There's plenty of room for one but I'm sure nobody in their right mind would attempt installing one.
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Bigsbys are tunally (sic!) totally ok as long as you don't touch them while playing. Or look too hard. 8)
My son installed a Bigsby on his Firebird. Not because of the vibrato effect but for the change in sound the bridge made on the guitar. He liked that slightly hollow tone.
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The bridge on the SG special looks more like the guitar version of the evertilt two point bass bridge to me. No wonder a Bigsby would wreak havoc with it. I'm shuddering at the notion of a Bigsby being on an EB1. There's plenty of room for one but I'm sure nobody in their right mind would attempt installing one.
The harmonica bridge does look a bit like the Evertilt, but it doesn't tilt like one.
Many people think that a Bigsby needs to have a roller bridge for better tuning stability, which may be why the OP is looking for one to replace the harmonica bridge. IMHO as long as the bridge is stable, it makes little or no difference.
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The one rock player that I played with that used a Bigsby had it on a rather battered and modified Guild archtop. The bridge was a floating wooden saddle type. That guitar stayed in tune rather well even with working the bigsby pretty hard. He also played with 013 gauge strings. Not your garden variety player. It sounded great.
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Many people think that a Bigsby needs to have a roller bridge for better tuning stability, which may be why the OP is looking for one to replace the harmonica bridge. IMHO as long as the bridge is stable, it makes little or no difference.
If saddles are too deep or 'bites' the string no vibrato unit will stay in tune or work well. It's just a part of the setup. The bigsby is a good working unit when set up correctly. That said, tuning a guitar between songs is also a part of being a musician!
But I agree, you don't need a roller. Just make sure the bridge saddles and nut is set up for the bigsby.
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The harmonica bridge does look a bit like the Evertilt, but it doesn't tilt like one.
Many people think that a Bigsby needs to have a roller bridge for better tuning stability, which may be why the OP is looking for one to replace the harmonica bridge. IMHO as long as the bridge is stable, it makes little or no difference.
Yeah, it's stable as long as I don't use the tremolo at all, even a light wiggle will throw things off. I'll try a roller bridge if I can find one that fits with no mods, not doing anything irreversible.
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If saddles are too deep or 'bites' the string no vibrato unit will stay in tune or work well. It's just a part of the setup. The bigsby is a good working unit when set up correctly. That said, tuning a guitar between songs is also a part of being a musician!
But I agree, you don't need a roller. Just make sure the bridge saddles and nut is set up for the bigsby.
So how does one properly set up a stock harmonica bridge to work with a bigsby? Is there some setup trick I'm missing? Smooth saddle slots maybe?
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I think the simple answer is, you don't... ;)
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So how does one properly set up a stock harmonica bridge to work with a bigsby? Is there some setup trick I'm missing? Smooth saddle slots maybe?
There's no trick, but both nut and saddles need special attention for it to work as good as possible. They must not catch or 'bite' the strings in any way. Polish the bottoms with fine sandpaper. You can add some lubrication (graphite, ex) if you wish. And make sure the bearings on the bigsby work smooth.
And some even use flat bottom filing on the nut, this demands some skills however. There is lots of tips and vids if you Google.
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Found this roller bridge from stewmac (overpriced, of course) that fits perfectly:
(http://img2.stewmac.com/product/images/3530/Locking_Roller_Bridge.jpg)
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/All_Hardware_and_Parts_by_Instrument/Electric_Guitar_Parts/Electric_Guitar_Bridges_and_Tailpieces/Tune-o-matic_Bridges/Locking_Roller_Bridge.html
Fits perfectly, had to replace the studs too because the posts are different but they fit the bushing thread and spacing perfectly.
and as amptech and others predicted, doesn't seem to help much so far, perhaps a little. Looks and feels better though (imho).
Thanks again for the help!
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Those roller bridges are often branded Wilkinson. I had one, and it wasn't all that good. Soft metal, with soft grub screws being a problem in particular.
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Isn't that bridge a replacement for an angled tune-o-matic? If so, it wouldn't work as a replacement for the harmonica bridge.
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as amptech and others predicted, doesn't seem to help much so far, perhaps a little. Looks and feels better though (imho).
Graphite powder in the nut slots, or a whole new graphite nut would probably help. Maybe locking tuners too, but I wouldn't think those would be necessary as long as you use it as a "wiggle stick" and not an Uli Roth divebomber. :o
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I don't think you can dive-bomb on a bigsby? At least not the one I've played with.
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Standard bridge is a blade where the strings sit so trying a "dive" usually results in a distinctive "ping" as the lower "wound" strings re-locate...
They make good slide instruments...
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Isn't that bridge a replacement for an angled tune-o-matic? If so, it wouldn't work as a replacement for the harmonica bridge.
I bought it "on speculation", but it does fit perfectly, pics when I get a chance. Quality isn't great, but then, wasn't so great on the original harmonica bridge either.
Graphite powder in the nut slots, or a whole new graphite nut would probably help. Maybe locking tuners too, but I wouldn't think those would be necessary as long as you use it as a "wiggle stick" and not an Uli Roth divebomber. :o
Yeah, Bigsbys don't dive bomb so well and if you try, they never come back the same. What I wish I could get rid of is the "wiggle" where the vibrato arm attaches to the tremolo - I might just remove that upper spring and replace it wish some washers - makes for a very uneven vibrato as the spring takes up some of the motion intended for the bridge.
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Those roller bridges are often branded Wilkinson. I had one, and it wasn't all that good. Soft metal, with soft grub screws being a problem in particular.
Exactly my experience too, got one for my epi lp, and after a while two of the intonation screws gave up. Piece of junk, stay away.
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Those roller bridges are often branded Wilkinson. I had one, and it wasn't all that good. Soft metal, with soft grub screws being a problem in particular.
Exactly my experience too, got one for my epi lp, and after a while two of the intonation screws gave up. Piece of junk, stay away.
Could be the same (bholder will soon find out), but just because it looks the same doesn't necessarily mean it is. There could be several Asian factories putting out the same design.
As for Wilkinson, he licenses his name to cheaper versions of his own products. He has a quality compensated saddle Tele bridge with that's made for him by Gotoh, then he also puts his name on a Chinese version sold by Guitar Fetish (and others) at half the price.
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I don't think you can dive-bomb on a bigsby? At least not the one I've played with.
Only once you can. The song better stop then so the roadie can retune.
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Never stopped Neil Young... :mrgreen:
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Herr Youngs reck- and fearless approach to electric guitar playing is commendable. I always liked that with him and found the contrast to his very disciplined playing of the acoustic guitar striking. When he plugs, he goes beserk.
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A bit like the days of your avatar of old... ;)