The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: pjm on December 22, 2016, 05:53:35 AM
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I'm currently stripping all the black finish off and getting rid of the active Bartolini preamp and go passive, VTVT. It's has Tbird pickups. My guess is 4 x 500k pots and 2 x caps.
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what was wrong with the finish?
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I'm currently stripping all the black finish off and getting rid of the active Bartolini preamp and go passive, VTVT. It's has Tbird pickups. My guess is 4 x 500k pots and 2 x caps.
Tone pots for vintage TBird pickups are 250k. YMMV.
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If he's keeping the pickups, they're TB+.
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Gibson's online diagrams for the modern passive LP Bass aren't schematics and don't show pot or capacitor values. Most post-1973 Les Paul guitars use 300K linear volume pots, which you can buy direct from the Gibson store and elsewhere.
According to Cadfael's wiring diagrams, the 1997-2006 passive LP Bass used 500K pots for all. Those used the same TB-Plus pckups as in your bass. But he shows the modern (1987 and later) T-Bird (also TB-Plus) as having 300K linear volume pots, and likewise with the recent passive LP Standard Oversized Bass. Caps are .047uF in all cases.
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I bought an LPB-1 (TB+ pups) for my son years ago and the preamp was shot, so we converted to passive, 2V2T. iirc, we used 500k pots and .047 caps. sounds as expected.
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Do you guys think i should just keep the Bart pre? There's nothing wrong with it, just though I'd get more of a classic Gibby tone without it.
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt338/mavbass/photo%208_zpsc6w3ghit.jpg) (http://s625.photobucket.com/user/mavbass/media/photo%208_zpsc6w3ghit.jpg.html)
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Stripping pic
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt338/mavbass/photo%209_zps1xzmijog.jpg) (http://s625.photobucket.com/user/mavbass/media/photo%209_zps1xzmijog.jpg.html)
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Do you guys think i should just keep the Bart pre? There's nothing wrong with it, just though I'd get more of a classic Gibby tone without it.
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Depends on what you mean by classic Gibby tone. Passive, with an all mahogany body, it ought to sound a lot like a modern T-Bird. I did play a passive NOS '92 in a store back in the late '90s but I can''t remember what it sounded like. OTOH the Bart pre version sonds fine to me, if I had one I wouldn't remove it. YYMV of course.
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Classic Gibby Tone is most present in black gloss finished basses.
Too bad... :mrgreen: :toast:
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Classic Gibby Tone is most present in black gloss finished basses.
Too bad... :mrgreen: :toast:
:rimshot:
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First coat of Danish oil
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt338/mavbass/photo%2011_zps7qxo27yt.jpg) (http://s625.photobucket.com/user/mavbass/media/photo%2011_zps7qxo27yt.jpg.html)
Hope to get it to this..
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt338/mavbass/61d0912a-c10f-4f72-9a97-959a5cc39b08_zpsgcgaqidc.png) (http://s625.photobucket.com/user/mavbass/media/61d0912a-c10f-4f72-9a97-959a5cc39b08_zpsgcgaqidc.png.html)
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You'll need some yellow to achieve that.
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Do you guys think i should just keep the Bart pre? There's nothing wrong with it, just though I'd get more of a classic Gibby tone without it.
I got rid of mine years ago during my "no more active stuff" phase. I like it without, but there was nothing really wrong "with" either. Bright and snarly.
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Out of curiosity, is there a setting on the pre that sounds close to the passive tone?
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Out of curiosity, is there a setting on the pre that sounds close to the passive tone?
I don't think the pre colours the tone, just tames it, less growl. The treble isn't particularly piercing.
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True, it's just a booster for all frequencies - a passive TB Plus turned up very loud + some subwoof. The combo is much better than with the Bart pups on the (then higher-priced) Deluxe version. The TB Plus colors the Bart active elctronics rather than the other way around.
I'd keep it, but while you're at it, why not add a switch to deactivate it at your choice? At a gig with bad acoustics, an active bass can sometimes be handy***. Don't ever quote me with that!
***So is a passive switch if your battery has run out and you have no spare with you!
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Might see if I can mod it to have an active passive volume pot.
Pic
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt338/mavbass/photo%201%2011_zpsoyzc5kaf.jpg) (http://s625.photobucket.com/user/mavbass/media/photo%201%2011_zpsoyzc5kaf.jpg.html)
And a pick guard idea based on an LP Jnr, not 100% on this shape and happy for suggestions.
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt338/mavbass/photo%202_zpsnrlv0hyb.jpg) (http://s625.photobucket.com/user/mavbass/media/photo%202_zpsnrlv0hyb.jpg.html)
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I kinda like it without the pickguard because the grain looks nice.
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Looking good!
I like the Jr. look. Here's another take on the 'guard - one that Dr. B had put together years back:
http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=8323.msg149323#msg149323
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/98%20Les%20Paul%20Bass/100_1897.jpg)
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I like it without guard, but I was always in love with tha Dr. B bass..... So make one:)
The body went out very well!!
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Body looks good. I do like the Junior-style guard, although it would be fine without it.
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Good looking wood Chris. Here's what my custom Les Paul bass ended up with. This gave me the option to go without a ring on the pickup. The builder used actual bakelite which he said was a tough material to cut. I Love the way Bill's guard looks too.
(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o632/4stringer77/Stambaugh/front_zpsqt8aw6dk.jpg) (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/4stringer77/media/Stambaugh/front_zpsqt8aw6dk.jpg.html)
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I hate to cover up wood that looks that good. But of the two, the Dr. B pickup appeals more to me.
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good job! I'd keep the guard off.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/rsteiner/lp1_zps93rzehjk.jpg) (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/rsteiner/media/lp1_zps93rzehjk.jpg.html)
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good job! I'd keep the guard off.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/rsteiner/lp1_zps93rzehjk.jpg) (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/rsteiner/media/lp1_zps93rzehjk.jpg.html)
Hey Pilgram, thanks for that we shared some PMs on TB so my bass was inspired by your sons 8)
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Hey Pilgram, thanks for that we shared some PMs on TB so my bass was inspired by your sons 8)
?? Same Pilgrim? I have two daughters, fresh outa sons.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrqlP6hzofE
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Like I say, maybe some other kinda Pilgrim...
(https://gcaggiano.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/6_johnwayne.jpg)
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True, it's just a booster for all frequencies - a passive TB Plus turned up very loud + some subwoof. The combo is much better than with the Bart pups on the (then higher-priced) Deluxe version. The TB Plus colors the Bart active elctronics rather than the other way around.
I'd keep it, but while you're at it, why not add a switch to deactivate it at your choice? At a gig with bad acoustics, an active bass can sometimes be handy***. Don't ever quote me with that!
***So is a passive switch if your battery has run out and you have no spare with you!
That's what I did with my Les Paul Std. bass. I put a push/pull knob in so I could switch between active/passive if I wanted. It was a great upgrade I thought.
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I'm definitely going to remove the Bart preamp, just to clean sounding with an annoying hiss from the treble. Can someone link me to the right type of pots, I'm guessing CTS Long Shaft Pots 500k and a couple of 47mf caps.
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You should be okay with those. That's what Cadfael's wiring diagram shows for 90s LP basses, but his 2012 T-bird diagram (also TB Plus pickups) shows 300K volume pots. Most Gibson USA models have used Gibson's 300K linear volume pots for years. The Gibson Historics don't.
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my son and I removed the bart pre from his LPB1 as it distorted all of the time, could not get a clean signal. we used long shaft 500k pots & 47mf caps. the bass sounds as expected. it's one of my favorites, great rock tone.
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my son and I removed the bart pre from his LPB1 as it distorted all of the time, could not get a clean signal. we used long shaft 500k pots & 47mf caps. the bass sounds as expected. it's one of my favorites, great rock tone.
Did you have to attach a grounding wire to the bridge, like Fender? I don't recall having that in my old Epi Tbirds
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yes, there's a bridge ground. it was a thicker single strand, yellow insulated wire.
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I'm definitely going to remove the Bart preamp, just to clean sounding with an annoying hiss from the treble. Can someone link me to the right type of pots, I'm guessing CTS Long Shaft Pots 500k and a couple of 47mf caps.
You don't need long shafts for a flat top LP - only the archtops (like Ramone57's). Save a bit o coin there.
CTS are pretty standard but you don't need to spend that much on the brand name - Bourns are just as good; Alphas are good enough (they're what 's in most stomp boxes). Carbon track pots; old tech and not much to it.
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actually, it is a flat top (took some getting used to). the CTS short shaft pots aren't quite long enough, I tried.
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Huh, I stand corrected - regular shafts have always worked for all my flat top Gibsons.
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Nice looking bass!
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yes, there's a bridge ground. it was a thicker single strand, yellow insulated wire.
You're right, i forgot but looking back at the pics i took it indeed has a bridge ground.
I'm going to wire it up like an SG bass, V V T and leave the space empty where the pot is closest to the bridge pickup, so annoying when playing with my thumb or playing with a pic and muting and always knocking the volume pot.
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I hope you enjoy the tone as much as I love my passive 3-knob LPB-1! Easiest bass to record for rock I have ever had. Sounds great direct or amped.
If only it was easier for my left hand :( I wish I could magically shift the bridge closer to the back end of the body. The way it hangs makes it feel much longer than 34"!
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"The way it hangs makes it feel much longer than 34"!"
A rather common male illusion. :popcorn:
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Gibson players are used to handling a decent length... and also love the curves too... excluding 20/20's, that is...
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So done with mods on my 5 string LPB-1. I had the upper rear bout shaped SG style to make it more comfortable to play (I rest my arm against the body). I had the side dots that were sometimes difficult to see with larger dots from Luminlay; in hindsight normal sized dots from them would have likely done the trick but it's still nice to see the dots easier. Face dots were not altered, and the larger side dots only go as far as the body due to their being too large to fit there and the difficulty involved. The neck wasn't quite straight, so rather than get close and futz with the frets I had the fingerboard planed and refretted. I yanked the Bartolini preamp (which sounded fine but I didn't care for the boost only bass and treble), now it has regular shaft 500K CTS pots wired VVT and added a 6 position Varitone from kellingsound88 on eBay. The bass straight up sounds great, and the varitone is pretty sweet, how useful it is only time will tell. The pots and switch all have generic black dome knobs in them that use the side screws to hold them in place. I lose the ability to look at the switch to see where it is, but with only 6 positions one of which is wide open I don't see that as a problem.
I'd been looking at wiring options and the passive configurations for VVTT didn't really have the tone controls affecting the pickups individually, so I went with the traditional VVT. The varitone is in line with the tone control so both are active all the time affecting both pickups.
http://www.luminlay.com/indexen.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Way-Varitone-With-Knob-For-Bass-or-Guitar-Custom-Wired-by-KellingSound-/201877270227?hash=item2f00d2aed3:g:jFkAAOSwG-1Wyd~T
(http://i.imgur.com/HEUYoor.jpg)
I don't have any after pics yet with the mods but here is the before:
(http://i.imgur.com/1LjrKoE.jpg)
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So, at the risk of sounding silly -
Are LP basses (with chrome TB+) wired in series or parallel? :-[
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The pots and switch all have generic black dome knobs in them that use the side screws to hold them in place. I lose the ability to look at the switch to see where it is, but with only 6 positions one of which is wide open I don't see that as a problem.
Something I've done with those knobs to give a point of reference is to paint the set screw white.
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So, at the risk of sounding silly -
Are LP basses (with chrome TB+) wired in series or parallel? :-[
Each humbucker's coils are wired in series. The two-pickup circuit is parallel.
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Each humbucker's coils are wired in series. The two-pickup circuit is parallel.
Thanks Dave. I'm going to assume a TBird is the same.
Here's my story. Back in '03 I bought my LPB-2 which was loaded with Barts and a Bart pre. I was okay with it for a while but found myself wanting to go passive. At that time HB shapes for bass were pretty limited. I didn't want EMG's and there was very little review info on the Rio Grande Pitbull i.e. (Apparently they've come a long way).
Right around that time Gibson announced they would begin selling chrome TB+ pickups outboard. Great! I had an '02 TBird at this point and really liked its tone palette, meaning it could be a TBird wide open, and tamed down some for more traditional bass sounds.
I get a set and have my tech do the install. I'm pretty sure I used what the TBird had - Gibson 300k pots, 047 caps, wired VT-VT.
I just couldn't get it to sound like the TBIrd, meaning, it was a lot of grindy midrange without much latitude. Not really my cuppa.
Now, this all happened some years ago so exact details are furry. My gear at the time could've been a factor as well. Still, overall I wasn't happy, and that sucked because I really like this bass a lot. It plays so very evenly across the entire neck, and looks pretty good as well with the premium top.
Next option was to try and find the DiMarzio's that Kramers were using at the time (DP121 Model G). These still showed up periodically on ebay and I managed to snag a DiMarzio and a Schaller (basically identical). That's what I have in it now and there's not much difference from what I remember about the TB+. They are very hot and mid heavy, not "toneful" at all.
Now I'm ready to tackle the LP one more time. I made a buddy over at the Gibson forum who put some Alumitones in his LP. He has made several "Strat" Gibsons and wound up with an extra set. He likes them a lot - they are broad spectrum guitar pickups so they don't make a separate neck and bridge model. I will say they look cool as all getout.
This was why I asked about the TB+ - I might want to give them another go. I did see some LP models that went with chrome TB+ with a Bart preamp. Is this the same Bart pre that was used with the Bart pickups or another model?
Sorry for all the questions. This is clearly the only place I can finally get some answers, or at the very least, some good direction.
I've been waiting to ask these for, literally, years. I very much want to get the LP back on the road with regularity.
Much obliged in advance.
Any suggestions for maxing out their versatility?
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Funny, I've always thought the modern Thunderbirds sound midrange heavy, so I'm not surprised your LPB-2 sounded that way after you converted it to passive. There have been some changes to those pickups since the modern TBird was introduced 30 years ago, and the ones I've played were earlier models, so maybe that would explain the differences you heard in your '02 model. I can't compare it to the Dimarzio Model G, I've only heard one in a Kramer Duke many years ago. Maybe someone else can chime in.
All of the 90s LP basses had the Bart TCT preamp except for the 1992 LPB-1 which was passive.
The Lace Alumitone demos I've seen on YT sound good. Might be worth a try. Have you seen this demo video of the Alumitone Bassbars? I realize they're larger than the HB size, but worth a listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ8ks3GiO6E
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All of the 90s LP basses had the Bart TCT preamp except for the 1992 LPB-1 which was passive.
Now that is some information that would've been good to know.
Yes, the '02 TBird gave you mids, but it seemed more controllable, with more range. I thought I could get the LP to do the same thing. I still have the original guts so maybe putting the TCT back is the way to go at some point.
Having said that the Alumitones sound pretty good indeed. When I got these there weren't any bass models yet, but when my buddy spoke to them directly they said no worries, the range is so broad they'll accommodate basses without any issues. I believe they'll be my next project.
P.S. The Model G was a stab in the dark. Very few options in that size at the time so I gave them a shot.
Thanks very much Dave. Valuable info much appreciated.
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I have one of those Lace basses. The pups sound great, very much like described in that vid. It's a sound that immediately pleases your ears as a bassist.
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Interesting. My (passive) LPB-1 is my go-to recording bass for the past bunch of years. The only other bird-ish instrument I have is my Greco TB IV, which was my favorite bass for a couple years before I got the LPB.
One reason I prefer the LPB is that the mids on the Greco are kind of overwhelming. That was what I liked about it at first - it has a ridiculously strong character that survives even the most aggressive "smile" EQ applied by dubiously qualified engineers. But in the long run I've found it's a bit muddy for me, and the LPB-1 by contrast still has plenty of mids, and gets me the growl and bark that I like from a 'bird, but in a much more controlled and articulate way than the Greco. But it's still pretty far from, say, a Jazz bass :)
I do really want to get my hands on something sounding a bit more like a 60s bird at some point, to see how well I like it. Like something with Thunderbuckers, since I will never be able to buy a real sixties bird. I haven't been able to compare directly, but my impression from recordings, online demos, etc. is that the actual sixties birds have more treble available than my Greco.
Also, I thought I had read here that passive LPB basses were also sold in '91? I could be totally wrong about that.
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I have one of those Lace basses. The pups sound great, very much like described in that vid. It's a sound that immediately pleases your ears as a bassist.
I really like the sound of that bass.
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I would think that the Alumitone HBs would be just as good for bass as for guitar. Likewise with the original Lace Sensors. The builder of Birdsong short scale basses offers a basic model with one pickup at the neck that's actually a Gold Lace Sensor Strat pickup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfVowkJNdEw
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Wow, those Bassbars sound great!
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I would think that the Alumitone HBs would be just as good for bass as for guitar. Likewise with the original Lace Sensors.
I don't know about their Strat pickups but I tried a set of their Precision pickups in my homemade ESP JPJ. They didn't last the day.
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I don't know about their Strat pickups but I tried a set of their Precision pickups in my homemade ESP JPJ. They didn't last the day.
That's all a matter of personal taste, isn't it? My point was that their guitar pickups are also suitable for use in basses. Not everyone will like the tone.
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Maybe I should have elaborated more: the Lace Sensors had almost NO low end, even soloed, and sounded even worse when mixed with the Fender CS 63 Jazz pickups in there. The bass itself is ungodly bright because its body is about 20% bondo covered in car lacquer and what wood is there was most likely cheap alder, but the Jazz pickups sound as expected but just a smidge bright. I beat the hell out of my basses and play with medium high action. I still have the pickup somewhere.
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Maybe I should have elaborated more: the Lace Sensors had almost NO low end, even soloed, and sounded even worse when mixed with the Fender CS 63 Jazz pickups in there. The bass itself is ungodly bright because its body is about 20% bondo covered in car lacquer and what wood is there was most likely cheap alder, but the Jazz pickups sound as expected but just a smidge bright. I beat the hell out of my basses and play with medium high action. I still have the pickup somewhere.
Obviously you should have used nitro so that the bondo could breathe. And I'll bet you didn't use pre-CBS bondo either.