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Main Forums => The Bass Zone => Topic started by: Dave W on December 11, 2016, 09:44:59 PM

Title: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: Dave W on December 11, 2016, 09:44:59 PM: New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species (https://reverb.com/news/new-cites-regulations-for-all-rosewood-species) (amended)

This will be an enormous nuisance, especially for small builders. I predict a movement toward alternative species that aren't endangered by China's high end furniture market.
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: Chris P. on December 12, 2016, 02:34:26 AM: There's a lot of discussion in Holland about it now, but mainly because nobody reads it and even news papers were writing you couldn't use any rosewood anymore. It will be a matter of time, but this makes it difficult for small builders but of course also for shops and big ones.
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: dadagoboi on December 12, 2016, 06:38:03 AM: Quote from: Dave W on December 11, 2016, 09:44:59 PM
New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species (http://verb.com/news/new-cites-regulations-for-all-rosewood-species)

This will be an enormous nuisance, especially for small builders. I predict a movement toward alternative species that aren't endangered by China's high end furniture market.

Link sent me to a site called "Verb.com". Have I been hacked?
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: luve2fli on December 12, 2016, 07:48:38 AM: The site has gone down since Dave posted ....
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: Dave W on December 12, 2016, 08:21:26 AM: I don't know why my original link changed, I tested it in preview mode before posting.

https://reverb.com/news/new-cites-regulations-for-all-rosewood-species
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: 4stringer77 on December 12, 2016, 09:13:16 AM: No worries, baked maple is just as good...right?
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: dadagoboi on December 12, 2016, 10:10:56 AM: Quote from: 4stringer77 on December 12, 2016, 09:13:16 AM
No worries, baked maple is just as good...right?

Thanks, Dave! One more reason to retire.
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: Highlander on December 12, 2016, 11:58:09 AM: ... as long as it isn't a Bladerunner "retirement"... :vader:
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: Pilgrim on December 12, 2016, 12:16:34 PM: Here's the really problematic part - used instruments.

"Even if the instrument was made with Dalbergia or the other regulated woods that were acquired before January 2, 2017 - such as a used or vintage instrument - it still must be accompanied by a CITES certificate and marked pre-convention when shipping internationally.

For example, a seller in Nashville looking to ship her 2013 Martin 000-28 with East Indian rosewood back and sides to a buyer in Canada must apply for a re-export certificate, pay the application fee, receive the certificate, and include that document with the guitar when shipping.

For sellers in the United States, CITES re-export certificates must be applied for through the US Fish and Wildlife Service. You can download the application here.

Representatives of the agency have said that initial turnaround times on certificate application may be on the order of months."

I should note that the last line contains the word "initial..." which holds some promise of reduced wait times. However, who thinks the Fish & Wildlife Service is likely to get additional funding under the next administration to deal with this? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

And there is this attempt at peacekeeping:

"If you contact US Fish and Wildlife, please keep in mind that they did not suggest or create this regulation - the parties of the international CITES conference did. The employees of US Fish and Wildlife are trying to work with manufacturers and sellers to develop streamlined processes around this."

All I can suggest is, if you have instruments with Rosewood you should save the original receipts or any other documentation to make it possible to re-sell. OTOH, there's the option of not selling outside the US.
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: dadagoboi on December 12, 2016, 03:02:34 PM: Quote from: Pilgrim on December 12, 2016, 12:16:34 PM
All I can suggest is, if you have instruments with Rosewood you should save the original receipts or any other documentation to make it possible to re-sell. OTOH, there's the option of not selling outside the US.

It seems no matter what, if you sell internationally, for individual sales you have to apply for a certificate. A sales slip or documentation alone isn't going to do it. That's a minimum of $100.

"there's the option of not selling outside the US."
Because we're ~~going to be~~ great again, so why would you want to sell anywhere else? ;D
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: uwe on December 12, 2016, 05:01:04 PM: I s e e S. W. A. T. t e a m s !!!

(https://m.popkey.co/2998fc/NlxO4.gif)

We had the same issue in Germany a couple of years ago (based on the interpretation of an EU Directive) with vintage collectors going into hysteria mode - I haven't been arrested yet. :popcorn:

But of course you should reserve "The Rosewood Renegade Realm" somewhere in the Dark Net as a domain name right now ... ;D
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: exiledarchangel on December 12, 2016, 07:27:58 PM: They banned mahogany, now they ban rosewood, maybe now is the time for a (headless) Tbird made completely of carbon fiber.
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: Dave W on December 13, 2016, 07:25:15 AM: Quote from: exiledarchangel on December 12, 2016, 07:27:58 PM
They banned mahogany, now they ban rosewood, maybe now is the time for a (headless) Tbird made completely of carbon fiber.

Mahogany isn't banned, there are restrictions on how much bigleaf (Honduras) mahogany can be harvested from its natural habitats. Most true mahogany used today is plantation-grown in Fiji and elsewhere.

This action on rosewood is a lot more severe.

I wonder if pau ferro trees will grow in Minnesota. ??? ;)
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: gearHed289 on December 13, 2016, 08:52:31 AM: Interesting timing on today's e-mail - http://us8.campaign-archive2.com/?u=5187bff6d4eeb00cbbb9c3d63&id=3b9add0adf&e=4c67a227e5 (http://us8.campaign-archive2.com/?u=5187bff6d4eeb00cbbb9c3d63&id=3b9add0adf&e=4c67a227e5)

(https://gallery.mailchimp.com/5187bff6d4eeb00cbbb9c3d63/images/2f15234a-3522-4c0c-a1be-65fee5437e76.jpg)
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: dadagoboi on December 13, 2016, 11:18:50 AM: Quote from: Dave W on December 13, 2016, 07:25:15 AM
Mahogany isn't banned, there are restrictions on how much bigleaf (Honduras) mahogany can be harvested from its natural habitats. Most true mahogany used today is plantation-grown in Fiji and elsewhere.

This action on rosewood is a lot more severe.

I wonder if pau ferro trees will grow in Minnesota. ??? ;)

Most of the 'mahogany' used these days is fake anyway, it's just an African species that vaguely resemble the real thing.
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: Dave W on December 14, 2016, 08:51:27 AM: Quote from: gearHed289 on December 13, 2016, 08:52:31 AM
Interesting timing on today's e-mail - http://us8.campaign-archive2.com/?u=5187bff6d4eeb00cbbb9c3d63&id=3b9add0adf&e=4c67a227e5 (http://us8.campaign-archive2.com/?u=5187bff6d4eeb00cbbb9c3d63&id=3b9add0adf&e=4c67a227e5)
...

Makes you wonder if they knew. Not a bad price either.

Quote from: dadagoboi on December 13, 2016, 11:18:50 AM
Most of the 'mahogany' used these days is fake anyway, it's just an African species that vaguely resemble the real thing.

AFAIK there's nothing wrong with khaya, but it irritates me to see it called "African mahogany" or worse, yet, as just mahogany. And have Asian imports ever used genuine mahogany?

OTOH the Fiji plantation-grown mahogany is genuine bigleaf mahogany. Grown in a different place it won't have identical properties but it's genuine swietenia. This is supposedly what Gibson has been using since 2008.
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: dadagoboi on December 14, 2016, 05:53:32 PM: Quote from: Dave W on December 14, 2016, 08:51:27 AM

AFAIK there's nothing wrong with khaya, but it irritates me to see it called "African mahogany" or worse, yet, as just mahogany.

In addition to allowing only Swietenia to be called 'Genuine Mahogany', other species should have to be called 'Faux mahogany'...or maybe 'Fauxogany' ;D
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: Dave W on December 14, 2016, 10:50:44 PM: I saw elsewhere that Warmoth has suspended overseas shipments of anything made with any of the affected woods until they get their permit application approved. Who knows how long that might be.
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: slinkp on December 14, 2016, 11:34:48 PM: Hmm... I always assumed my Greco was something other than genuine mahogany.... Anybody know what they would have used?
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: dadagoboi on December 15, 2016, 03:52:43 PM: Quote from: slinkp on December 14, 2016, 11:34:48 PM
Hmm... I always assumed my Greco was something other than genuine mahogany.... Anybody know what they would have used?

Possibly the same stuff as used in my '89 Orville by Gibson. I'm pretty sure it was Honduras, the body was made of 5 strips that were joined very well..

(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/89%20Orville/P1040245.jpg) (http://s976.photobucket.com/user/cata1d0/media/89%20Orville/P1040245.jpg.html)

I also have an early MIJ Yairi acoustic guitar that is definitely Honduras. All of it except the ebony bridge and fretboard.

EDIT: The top and braces are spruce, neck, sides and back are Honduras.
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: FrankieTbird on December 16, 2016, 02:53:55 PM: How about the Bachbirds? What mahogany-like substance would they have been made from?
Title: Re: Could rosewood boards be on the way out?
Post by: dadagoboi on December 16, 2016, 03:20:14 PM: Quote from: FrankieTbird on December 16, 2016, 02:53:55 PM
How about the Bachbirds? What mahogany-like substance would they have been made from?

Kahya, same as Lull TBirds.