The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: Alanko on July 13, 2016, 04:26:00 AM
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I possibly have an Epiphone Rivoli in my not-too-distant future. In the past I've owned an Epiphone EB-0, and it seems that the criticism for both basses centres on the pickup. The EB-0 pickup had a DC resistance of only 12k or so, and was weak and uneven. I've seen the same said about the Rivoli pickup.
I used to have a couple of Artec sidewinders, but they were both killed in action unfortunately. From memory both had the magnets incorrectly mounted and one, if not both, had the coils wired incorrectly.
I've seen a mod mentioned on here that spreads the magnetic field of the Epi pickup using Allen keys or ferrous wire. My thought would be, could you not just chip the stock magnets off the pickup and replace them with neodymium block? I've seen this stuff on Ebay, available in various lengths and widths. Could you get away with using a single row of these magnets along the base of the pole pieces?
My second thought is, which matters more; the width of the pickup coils or the width of the magnets? Does the weak E string phenomenon stem from the string's excursion extending beyond the range of the magnets or beyond the range of the coils? If it is the former could I get away with taking a cheap, hot guitar pickup, removing the coils and transplanting these onto the metalwork of the Epi sidewinder in bid to hike the DC resistance of the pickup?
Apologies if these are silly questions or if I am missing a fundamental point somewhere along the line.
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Not the same pickup. Rivoli is a classic American Gibson mudbucker. Epi EB-0 is modern chinese mudbucker copy that's nothing like an actual mudbucker.
The Rivoli is essentially the exact same bass as the Gibson EB-2, but with a different neck profile I am told.
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The Rivoli pickup is topologically the same as a mudbucker, as far as I can tell. It was built in a sidewinder configuration. The difference must be in the magnets, gauge of wire, number of turns or some other geometry within the pickup.
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You mean Epi EBO pickup? Yes; an unfaithful repro. A Rivoli pup IS a mudbucker.
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Original or reissue? Did they put a real mudbucker in the 90's reissues? I always assumed it was the same copy pickup they put in the EB0 but wont pretend to know.
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Oh right, there was a reissue of the Rivoli - completely forgot about that. No idea what was in those.
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The 90s Rivoili had the same pickup as the Epi EB-0.
I don't think the magnets have anything to do with the weak E and G problem that some have had. The allen key trick (or nail trick) simulates extending the coil width.
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Does it?
I always thought it extended the magnetic field a little.
But I'm no expert.
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Yes, it extends the magnetic field. That's exactly what it does. But the coil is where the current is generated. It widens the area covered by the coil.
If you didn't use an allen key or nail, and just widened the magnets, that wouldn't solve the problem. The excursion of the E string would still go beyond the coil area and wouldn't generate the current.
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I don't understand how widening the magnetic field with a nail is different from widening the field with wider magnets? :o
I'm leaning towards a Model One now, or potentially seeing how much a custom pickup would cost. I don't even own this bass yet. 8)
The EB0 pickup was beyond disappointing. I wanted something that was thumping, and it was anemic.
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I have a 60's mudbucker and an old Model One on my '64 EB-0. Both output plenty of sound and have real guts, but of course the mudbucker is a bit dirtier and louder than the Dimarzio. I think the Model One was developed as a replacement for the 'buckers, and it delivers pretty well.
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Once you get past the blackness, the M1 is a pretty nice pickup. It does what it's supposed to.
My modded Epi EB-0:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/lowend1/EpiEB-0mod1_zps23ede494.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lowend1/media/EpiEB-0mod1_zps23ede494.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/lowend1/EpiEB-0mod2_zps6f74147c.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lowend1/media/EpiEB-0mod2_zps6f74147c.jpg.html)
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My dual pickup EB. The second rout was in there when I got it, so I filled it with a pickup.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/apowell1/Electric%20Basses/Gibson%20EB-0%201964/PB070018.jpg)
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Just saying, but for the price of a Model 1 you can get an actual vintage mudbucker (more common too). Never used the Model 1, and if there's only a single pup in a bass, the mudbucker isn't the most versatile thing around.
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I possibly have an Epiphone Rivoli in my not-too-distant future. In the past I've owned an Epiphone EB-0, and it seems that the criticism for both basses centres on the pickup. The EB-0 pickup had a DC resistance of only 12k or so, and was weak and uneven. I've seen the same said about the Rivoli pickup.
Epiphone EB-0 pickups have a DC of about 1.2K.
I used to have a couple of Artec sidewinders, but they were both killed in action unfortunately. From memory both had the magnets incorrectly mounted and one, if not both, had the coils wired incorrectly.
I've seen a mod mentioned on here that spreads the magnetic field of the Epi pickup using Allen keys or ferrous wire. My thought would be, could you not just chip the stock magnets off the pickup and replace them with neodymium block? I've seen this stuff on Ebay, available in various lengths and widths. Could you get away with using a single row of these magnets along the base of the pole pieces?
You could try that, I am not sure if it wouldn't work. The trick is to widen the field on the top side of the pickup, where the polepieces are.
My second thought is, which matters more; the width of the pickup coils or the width of the magnets? Does the weak E string phenomenon stem from the string's excursion extending beyond the range of the magnets or beyond the range of the coils? If it is the former could I get away with taking a cheap, hot guitar pickup, removing the coils and transplanting these onto the metalwork of the Epi sidewinder in bid to hike the DC resistance of the pickup?
Apologies if these are silly questions or if I am missing a fundamental point somewhere along the line.
Those are two different things, the shape of the coil has to do with the sonic character of the pickup, thin and tall coils tend to sound brighter than fat and short ones. The size of the magnet has to do with the strength of the magnetic field, bigger size = bigger field = more output.
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Just saying, but for the price of a Model 1 you can get an actual vintage mudbucker (more common too). Never used the Model 1, and if there's only a single pup in a bass, the mudbucker isn't the most versatile thing around.
...which is exactly why the Model One was designed the way it is. It's intended purpose is to be the anti-mudbucker - while still filling the spot in an aesthetically pleasing manner. Mine has a push-pull pot to do the series-parallel thing instead of the mini toggle they give you with it. I bought mine used on the cheap.
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In my eb4l I have an epiphone pickup.it measured 1.2 k so I put it through a pearl inline mic transformer I had lying in my parts drawer.so something like 600 ohms in and 10 k out.I like it.loads of bass and punch.not loads of tops but there wasn't much there before I put it through the transformer .to me it sounds like a mud bucket only slightly clearer. Still enough attitude to frighten small children and crack your plaster work. And there are 2 allen keys under the pup cover to balance the response.I can sure hear all the fundamentals on the e string!
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I don't understand how widening the magnetic field with a nail is different from widening the field with wider magnets? :o
I'm leaning towards a Model One now, or potentially seeing how much a custom pickup would cost. I don't even own this bass yet. 8)
The EB0 pickup was beyond disappointing. I wanted something that was thumping, and it was anemic.
For the magnet to generate current in the coil, the magnetic field lines have to pass through the coil. If you widen the magnet without widening the coil, there won't be any coil in the place you want current generated. I'm no expert, that's how it was explained to me.
The Model One is not a mudbucker, but it delivers.
Just saying, but for the price of a Model 1 you can get an actual vintage mudbucker (more common too). Never used the Model 1, and if there's only a single pup in a bass, the mudbucker isn't the most versatile thing around.
A Model One sells for US$90. I haven't seen an original mudbucker anywhere near that price for a few years.
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Just saying, but for the price of a Model 1 you can get an actual vintage mudbucker (more common too). Never used the Model 1, and if there's only a single pup in a bass, the mudbucker isn't the most versatile thing around.
Sadly this isn't the case in the UK, perhaps partly because of our tanked £££ at the moment. There is one genuine Gibson sidewinder on Ebay for £150. I can get a Model One from one of the scarce few Dimarzio retailers over here for £90 or so. My best shout for both pickups is to probably try and track down 2nd hand examples that aren't too tatty.
It seems that once the '50s and '60s Gibson basses fell out of touch with the British, with a few exceptions, they fell out of touch hard. The British Invasion bassists might have inspired a lot of US bassmen (and women) but I get the feeling that burgeoning prog rock made them obsolete before their time. As a result it is quite easy to find vintage Rickenbacker and Fender basses in the UK but I personally rarely see the mudbucker Gibsons.
Many thanks all for giving this some thought and for the quality responses.
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I've seen Model 1s go for more than $90, and just this week a mudbucker went for 100 (the NOS one in the shrink pack is still only 185). Things fluctuate, but they're in the same ballpark.
Anyway, I was not commenting at all on what's the better. I have heard both positive and negative things about the Model 1, but not actually used it myself. Versatility can be a good thing, but the mudbucker is the tops at a certain thing - if that's what's desired there's no beating it.
It just sunk in reading this thread about the 1.2k output of the Epi bucker. That's, like, stupid low right (even compared to a single coil)? I wonder if that is due to some attempt to tame the mud on the repro where they put the coils in parallel vs series. From what I recall (I ripped one out of an Epi EB0 and replaced with 70s mudbucker for a friend) the wiring is exposed and it could easily be checked or rewired for series if the above is indeed the case. That should give it some (more) teeth. ... but the transformer idea was brilliant [tips hat].
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Another option is the current Gibson "Mudbucker" copy that they used in the SG bass and Midtown bass. I'm told it's actually more like a T-bird pickup with a Mudbucker cover. You can find them used occasionally from folks that "upgraded" their instruments. Worth a shot if you like the Thunderbird sound.
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It just sunk in reading this thread about the 1.2k output of the Epi bucker. That's, like, stupid low right (even compared to a single coil)? I wonder if that is due to some attempt to tame the mud on the repro where they put the coils in parallel vs series. From what I recall (I ripped one out of an Epi EB0 and replaced with 70s mudbucker for a friend) the wiring is exposed and it could easily be checked or rewired for series if the above is indeed the case. That should give it some (more) teeth. ... but the transformer idea was brilliant [tips hat].
Those pickups are made by Gotoh I think, they are made with a much thicker wire, maybe 40 awg or something. They are almost low impedance compared to the original ones. They don't sound bad, a bit anemic, but I think that is because of the limited magnetic field. Also, I think that the row of screws can't transfer much of the magnetic field to strings, I'm not an electrical engineer, just a hack, but that is my impression. Maybe replacing the screws with a different (solid) core blade under the cover things will improve. I need to find some time to experiment...
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I've seen Model 1s go for more than $90, and just this week a mudbucker went for 100 (the NOS one in the shrink pack is still only 185). Things fluctuate, but they're in the same ballpark.
Anyway, I was not commenting at all on what's the better. I have heard both positive and negative things about the Model 1, but not actually used it myself.
Street price of the Model One is $89.99 at the major retailers. I can't find any mudbuckers in the eBay sold listings for $100. That would be the exception, not the rule. The lowest I see went for $129, the others were all above $150. IIIRC the one I bought direct from Bill cost me a little over $100 years ago. I resold that to Al, that's the one in his bass in this thread.
Those pickups are made by Gotoh I think, they are made with a much thicker wire, maybe 40 awg or something. They are almost low impedance compared to the original ones. They don't sound bad, a bit anemic, but I think that is because of the limited magnetic field. Also, I think that the row of screws can't transfer much of the magnetic field to strings, I'm not an electrical engineer, just a hack, but that is my impression. Maybe replacing the screws with a different (solid) core blade under the cover things will improve. I need to find some time to experiment...
The late 70s version of the mudbucker was also about as low as the reissues. Could also have been fewer winds with larger gauge wire and/or the coils in parallel. I don't recall anyone taking one apart to find out for sure.
Another option is the current Gibson "Mudbucker" copy that they used in the SG bass and Midtown bass. I'm told it's actually more like a T-bird pickup with a Mudbucker cover. You can find them used occasionally from folks that "upgraded" their instruments. Worth a shot if you like the Thunderbird sound.
Some buyers have reported the same problem (E and/or G) dropoff with this pickup, too, although mine didn't have that problem.
It doesn't sound like a Thunderbird (nor a mudbucker either). It has the same construction but the two coils are so far separated that the sound is much different, plus it's in the neck position.
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It is depressing to see the RRP for a Model One at $89.99. That should cost me about £67, yet it doesn't. There isn't a bricks 'n' mortar Dimarzio dealer I can walk into either.
There does seem to be a general lack of mainstream, period-correct spec reproduction mudbuckers. Seymour Duncan offers nothing in that field, and the Dimarzio Model One was created as the solution to perceived problems with the Gibson design. There is Curtis Novak's reproduction and a few small builders elsewhere, but nothing coming off a production line. There are weird, cheap Chinese mudbuckers, such as the Artec (which I can no longer find for sale) or the Gotoh, but the latter at least doesn't meet the correct specs.
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There does seem to be a general lack of mainstream, period-correct spec reproduction mudbuckers.
To me, that just makes sense. The market for mudbuckers seems to be limited, an aquired taste you might say. This forum i guess is the exception, though even here you have gibson bass lovers who finds the original mudbucker somewhat limited in the tone departement.
After all, though expensive at the moment, original units are plentiful. The last mudbucker i bought on ebay cost me about $60 without cover, but I waited a long time for one that cheap. Another point is that you can find good gibson bass projects anywhere at better prices than other vintage basses (rick, fender) if you are looking for mudbucker equipped ones and not Tbirds - if you look outside ebay.
I can't see any manufacturer in his right mind would decide to put a period correct 60's mudbucker into large scale production, no matter how much I love that damn thing!
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Street price of the Model One is $89.99 at the major retailers.
It's still in production - Thought it was long gone? Never seen one new but I haven't exactly been looking lately (I did years ago). Did they reissue it recently or something?
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There's this, too.
The specs are nearly the same, but the pole spacing is a little wider for long scale basses.
http://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/bass/standard-bass/will-power-neck
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To me, that just makes sense. The market for mudbuckers seems to be limited, an aquired taste you might say.
I suppose. Bassists are quite happy to upgrade Squier and SX basses, so it seems odd that there is only a fairly limited range of pickups for Epiphone EB0 owners, to give one example.
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It's a much smaller market (vs say standard P or J form factor stuff). Especially before the Epi (and then Gibson) reissues started dropping. Might be more worth it now, but still not as lucrative as F style stuff.
The other popular option a few years back was the Bisonic (or the various reissues/repros; e.g. Dark Star).
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I'm sure somebody would rewind a single unit to spec (for the right price).
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Those pickups are made by Gotoh I think, they are made with a much thicker wire, maybe 40 awg or something. They are almost low impedance compared to the original ones. They don't sound bad, a bit anemic, but I think that is because of the limited magnetic field. Also, I think that the row of screws can't transfer much of the magnetic field to strings, I'm not an electrical engineer, just a hack, but that is my impression. Maybe replacing the screws with a different (solid) core blade under the cover things will improve. I need to find some time to experiment...
Artec, apparently now out of production. Out of stock at Allparts for over a year. Yeah, pole screws do absolutely zip. When available they cost me $18...which means they cost Allparts less than $10...which means the manufacturing cost was probably $5 including cover. Can't buy much copper for that!
That's why they sound like shit compared to the real thing. And not even a nice firm turd, more like diarrhea. Only my opinion of course.
I'm not sure if I have the model one I traded for last year. It's a cream one, I need to build a bass for it if I do.
Novak builds versions of mudbuckers. They don't sound very good. Again, my opinion
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Artecs have much more wider polepieces, Fender-spaced (52 or 54mm I think), those are about 48mm, thats way I think they are Gotohs.
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It's still in production - Thought it was long gone? Never seen one new but I haven't exactly been looking lately (I did years ago). Did they reissue it recently or something?
It's never been out of production, but I haven't seen one in a store for at least 15 years. My guess is that most buyers of vintage Gibson EB series basses today aren't likely to consider replacing the original mudbucker; things were different when the basses were cheap and not considered vintage. There's still a demand for them, just not as much as before.
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Dimarzio killed off the Model G pickup, which might be what Granny Gremlin is thinking of?
Artecs do indeed have wider spacing. I discovered this when I tried to stick one in the EB-0 bass. I would hesitatingly say Artecs are spaced to go in the neck position of Fenders.
I'm guessing Artec only sold them because somebody had commissioned them for a bass? For example I'm noticing a lot of cheap Chinese Filtertron/Fidelitron type bass humbuckers available at the moment, and those Chowny basses came out recently with these pickups fitted. Likewise I'm wondering if the Artec mudbuckers were devised for the B&CH EB-2/Rivoli copy bass, or some other far-east wonder like the Italia or Fret King basses? I'm guessing that it cost a wee bit to tool up to make them, so it would be worth it to make a bunch of them!
All that, and the Artec was a diarrheabucker...
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Italia Mondial maybe, yeah. That predates the Bach.
As expected, Uwe's got one (and I played it; photographic evidence exits, but I look like a total dork).