Is there a proper, specific method of setting up the three point bridge on Gibson, Epiphone basses? How much thought do you experienced players put into things like the angle the strings break over the saddles ect.....or am I just overthinking things here?
Well what I like to do is take the damn thing off and put on a Supertone.
I had a Supertone, and didn't like how it looked., and really couldn't tell any difference in tone or sustain.
Quote from: cheyenne on March 13, 2015, 01:02:27 PM
I had a Supertone, and didn't like how it looked., and really couldn't tell any difference in tone or sustain.
Put me in the group too.
The tonal difference is slight and not worth the change if you are fine with setting up a three point unlike many of my challenged brethren here. The Supertone adds a bit more sustain on a bass that already has endless sustain. Unless most of your bass playing consists of letting upper register notes ring out while the band ploughs on, it's irrelevant.
With a three point it's pretty much like with a first date: Don't do anything too radical even if it seems convenient and no-one is watching. Don't over-slant or over-tilt, streng verboten. I tend to have the single stud erected elevated somewhat higher than the back studs. Whether that is compelling for saddle pressure is debatable (unless it tips forward extremely), I just think it mostly looks neater and feels better to my palm.
Let's take an example, E buzzes, the other three are alright. Raise the upper back stud a little. If that doesn't do away with the buzzing, then don't continue raising the upper back stud, but rather the middle one. That of course raises D and G a little too, you can then either live with that or lower the lower back stud a little to compensate. Just keep some sort of balance between all three studs. For fine tuning, I'm not above swapping saddles (Gibson's alignment of these doesn't always make sense for every set-up) or getting the file out to deepen a saddle notch. I'm in good company, some members here use saws to gain better upper fretboard access, so I've heard on a no-name basis.
But what do I know, klutz I am I just broke off one of the soldering wires of my EB-0F fuzz tone when changing the batteries (which are under constant drain even when the thing is put on off). Alas, my luthier needs to make a living too. My soldering skills are crap. And I don't even know where the wire has to go as the soldering joints broke on both ends. Verdammte Scheiße.
Quote from: uwe on March 13, 2015, 02:13:26 PM
The tonal difference is slight and not worth the change if you are fine with setting up a three point unlike many of my challenged brethren here. The Supertone adds a bit more sustain on a bass that already has endless sustain. Unless most of your bass playing consists of letting upper register notes ring out while the band ploughs on, it's irrelevant.
With a three point it's pretty much like with a first date: Don't do anything too radical even if it seems convenient and no-one is watching. Don't over-slant or over-tilt, streng verboten. I tend to have the single stud erected elevated somewhat higher than the back studs. Whether that is compelling for saddle pressure is debatable (unless it tips forward extremely), I just think it mostly looks neater and feels better to my palm.
Let's take an example, E buzzes, the other three are alright. Raise the upper back stud a little. If that doesn't do away with the buzzing, then don't continue raising the upper back stud, but rather the middle one. That of course raises D and G a little too, you can then either live with that or lower the lower back stud a little to compensate. Just keep some sort of balance between all three studs. For fine tuning, I'm not above swapping saddles (Gibson's alignment of these doesn't always make sense for every set-up) or getting the file out to deepen a saddle notch. I'm in good company, some members here use saws to gain better upper fretboard access, so I've heard on a no-name basis.
But what do I know, klutz I am I just broke off one of the soldering wires of my EB-0F fuzz tone when changing the batteries (which are under constant drain even when the thing is put on off). Alas, my luthier needs to make a living too. My soldering skills are crap. And I don't even know where the wire has to go as the soldering joints broke on both ends. Verdammte Scheiße.
People buy a Supertone for added sustain (which is overrated anyway)? I would have guessed it's for ease of setup and adjustment. And your description of 3 point setup demonstrates why.
Uwe has put it better than I can (sorry, I've just drunk half a bottle of very nice red on an empty stomach). I put Supertones on mine simply because the stock 3-pointer really doesn't give me anywhere near the degree of adjustment that I desire and the saddles hurt my hand when I'm playing like a crazy person. I couldn't really give a rats ass to how it looks to be honest...it does a better job than the 3-pointer.
...and following a crazy week at work and with the clock showing 9.10pm, I think it's time for bed. Pooped.
Night.
P
I opted for the Supertone 2 because I hated the Evertilt on my '72 EB-3. I will likely go the same route with my '68 EB-0. I have no animosity towards the three-point.
But Herr Dave always says that the Evertilt is a finely cafted (and designed!) piece of American hardware! All you need with it is to imagine an additional string holder. Try telling that my EB-0 Slothead. :mrgreen:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c8/53/aa/c853aaa375ea5d0454fd5a5020883624.jpg)
"People buy a Supertone for added sustain (which is overrated anyway)? I would have guessed it's for ease of setup and adjustment. And your description of 3 point setup demonstrates why."
But Dave, it's called Supertone, not Eazy Seddup!
I totally understand the more precise adjustment if you want to get on a per string level...but the tone/sustain thing sounds like a talkbass tale that gets passed on over and over like a doobie at Woodstock. I'd bet my 'Bird that a new bridge would do nothing noticeable when I play..how much sustain does a bass player even need....LOL..
I do! That is why neck thru basses are among my favourites, it even feels different. I get all the attack I need with my pick and due to the fact that I tend to be ahead of the beat anyway. I love it when a high E (D string, 14th fret) or very high E (G string, 21st fret) just "stands" and, yes, that doesn't sound the same on a P Bass to me (even if you bend up the available D# to an E).
You can just wallow in that sustain ... :mrgreen:
Quote from: uwe on March 13, 2015, 03:28:20 PM
I do! That is why neck thru basses are among my favourites, it even feels different. I get all the attack I need with my pick and due to the fact that I tend to be ahead of the beat anyway. I love it when a high E (D string, 14th fret) or very high E (G string, 21st fret) just "stands" and, yes, that doesn't sound the same on a P Bass to me (even if you bend up the available D# to an E).
You can just wallow in that sustain ... :mrgreen:
True - that's why I too use a pick and neck thru birds...but a bridge won't add to what I get now..I should have been clearer...who needs even MORE than what I can get now :mrgreen:
Quote from: uwe on March 13, 2015, 02:13:26 PM
The tonal difference is slight and not worth the change if you are fine with setting up a three point unlike many of my challenged brethren here. The Supertone adds a bit more sustain on a bass that already has endless sustain. Unless most of your bass playing consists of letting upper register notes ring out while the band ploughs on, it's irrelevant.
With a three point it's pretty much like with a first date: Don't do anything too radical even if it seems convenient and no-one is watching. Don't over-slant or over-tilt, streng verboten. I tend to have the single stud erected elevated somewhat higher than the back studs. Whether that is compelling for saddle pressure is debatable (unless it tips forward extremely), I just think it mostly looks neater and feels better to my palm.
Let's take an example, E buzzes, the other three are alright. Raise the upper back stud a little. If that doesn't do away with the buzzing, then don't continue raising the upper back stud, but rather the middle one. That of course raises D and G a little too, you can then either live with that or lower the lower back stud a little to compensate. Just keep some sort of balance between all three studs. For fine tuning, I'm not above swapping saddles (Gibson's alignment of these doesn't always make sense for every set-up) or getting the file out to deepen a saddle notch. I'm in good company, some members here use saws to gain better upper fretboard access, so I've heard on a no-name basis.
But what do I know, klutz I am I just broke off one of the soldering wires of my EB-0F fuzz tone when changing the batteries (which are under constant drain even when the thing is put on off). Alas, my luthier needs to make a living too. My soldering skills are crap. And I don't even know where the wire has to go as the soldering joints broke on both ends. Verdammte Scheiße.
This is what I'm talking about... I've been playing bass for 35 years, and believe It or not,,never really encountered the 3 point bridge much. (pretty much a Rickenbacker / Fender player),,,I bought an Epiphone Tbird Classic on a whim, and really fell in love with the tone and quality of this bass. After reading a thousand reviews on the 3 point bridge being a bad design, I immediately purchased a Supertone replacement. I installed it and really couldn't get along with it. I felt it big and clunky, and couldn't really tell a difference in tone or sustain. ( sorry Hipshot, but I call them like I see them,,, thanks for the effort here.....). The original although a little dated , seems very useable and adjustable,, but I feel I'm a little behind on maybe the specific tweaks and tricks that make the 3 point just fine. A lot like a Rickenbacker,,, people who don't like them, usually don't know how to adjust them. I appreciate the tips and help getting me up to speed.
Quote from: uwe on March 13, 2015, 03:28:20 PM
I do! That is why neck thru basses are among my favourites, it even feels different. I get all the attack I need with my pick and due to the fact that I tend to be ahead of the beat anyway. I love it when a high E (D string, 14th fret) or very high E (G string, 21st fret) just "stands" and, yes, that doesn't sound the same on a P Bass to me (even if you bend up the available D# to an E).
You can just wallow in that sustain ... :mrgreen:
Ain't that the truth. Running a tube amp with some grind makes it all the more glorious. My sound for years was the Bicentennial through a '71 V4B and flatback SVT cab. Positively evil.
I've found that setting up a three point is less arduous when the bass has a properly slotted nut and some skilled fret leveling. Epis, in particular, benefit from a few tweaks in that department.
I'm with you,,, I cut the nut cut as low as it will go to allow open strings to sound clearly when hit hard, with fingers, on open notes, without buzzing. THIS, in my opinion is the way overlooked tweak that has the biggest impact on the overall playability and feel of the neck.
I didn't install a Supertone to gain more sustain, just seems easier for my brain to work with for adjustments. Plus the saddles don't fall off when I change strings so I appreciate that. I have no hate for the 3-point and have them on 3 of my basses but I like the solid feel of the Supertone despite it's large footprint. Honestly the black one pretty much blends right in on my ebony Bird, but the chrome one looks right at home on my RD.
I stole the following info from Talkbass and it is supposed to be a detailed explanation about adjusting the 3-point. I am not the author and claim no credit for this write-up so if there is a reason that I shouldn't post this then please delete it. If there are mistakes someone can offer a better solution/suggestion on that part.
3 POINT BRIDGE ADJUSTMENTS
1. Screw down the bridge evenly over all three screws till you have an action around the 15th and higher frets that is comfortable for you without any or too much buzz (some players don't mind a little buzz or even like it, that is a matter of taste). Keep the front stud a little higher for best string to saddle pressure. Retune the bass, don't worry about buzzing in the lower registers at this point.
2. Now you've got your bass retuned with a lower action at the high frets. Your lower frets will now either buzz (see 2a for the subsequent steps) or the action will still be too high even in the low registers (see 2b for the subsequent steps).
2a: Low Register buzzes: You need to loosen the truss rod. Take off the truss rod cover and insert an allen wrench in the allen nut (the cheaper Epis generally have allen nuts). Don't detune the bass for that, rather lift the A and the D string to the side to the slots of the G and E string to have room for turning the allen wrench. With the bass' butt resting on your toes (clean those sneakers!) and the strings/fretboard facing away from you, you - while standing up and looking down - will now turn the allen wrench <--- counterclockwise <---. Epi truss rods move easily (if noisily), turn it and immediately look to find out how the action of the bass has altered and buzzing has become less or disappeared. Don't be scared of overdoing it - it is impossible to break a truss rod by loosening it as you are releasing tension. That said, one or two "one third turns" counterclockwise should do it. sometimes you will need a few more of those to actually adjust the bass if the neck is too straight or even curved away from the fretboard.
2 b: Low Register has too much action: Same as 2a, except that you have too tighten the truss rod now which is done by turning the allen wrench ---> clockwise --->. You will also have to be more careful as you can break a trussrod by overtightening it. But Epi truss rods are hardy and can certainly survive one full turn or even more as your bass is probably a virgin as regards truss rod adjustment.
3. After a combination of either steps 1 and 2a or steps 1 and 2 b you should have a relatively or even totally buzz free bass with good to reasonable action. If there is still some persistent buzzing at some places then raise the bridge a little. Raising the front stud will raise all strings, raising the lower hind stud more the D and G string, raising the upper hind stud more E and A. No radical set ups please! (Like one stud real low and the other two very high.)
4. (optional) Is all buzzing just on one string (while the other strings are buzz-free) and you have to raise the bridge considerably to make it go away even though you could stay much lower if it were just for the other strings? Try this then: I assume that on your Epi too the saddles for the four individual strings do not all have the same height, but that there are two higher and two lower ones. If the persistently buzzing string is on a lower saddle, then exchange that saddle against a higher saddle.
Wow! Thanks for the information. very much appreciated. :)
Adding to the above, one other nugget that might help in some situations is re-ordering the saddles.
I owned an Epi Elitist Thunderbird for a while. Beautiful bass, but when it arrived I noticed the radius of the fretboard was fairly flat and the the corresponding radius of the strings (imposed by the saddles) had a huge arch and didn't match up very well. The E & G saddles were short, and the A & D were very tall. I had to set the action such that the E wouldn't buzz, and that resulted in the A & D being hiked up way off the board... if that makes sense.
Rather than grind down or notch the high saddles deeper, I just took note of their positions (for re-ballparking the intonation later) and reordered them- lifting the entire saddle and screw out and moving their positions as follows:
A -> E
D -> A
E -> D
G - left in place
That made for a flatter radius at the bridge (to better match that of the board), and I was able to get a really nice setup going after that. If I recall correctly, the bass side stud had to be cranked down a bit, and the treble side up.... resulting in a slightly tilted stature of the bridge. I still kept the center screw cranked up a bit for good downward string pressure. The only bummer is that the D saddle notch ends up being kinda huge for the string... but that didn't cause me any problems.
Not sure whether the newer Epis are like this, but just thought it worth a mention. I didn't have to do this on my Gibsons...