The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: Bionic-Joe on January 13, 2013, 07:15:55 PM
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Greco-Thunderbird-Bass-77-/170973675008?pt=Guitar&hash=item27ced33e00
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I'm always glad I have one!
I think they're a pretty sweet bass for the $$$, mine just has to get painted into something more suitable for my stage persona 8)
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How's the neck on these, compared to a 60's reversed?
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The Greco Tbird that I have has a rather chunky neck. Nothing like the Gibson Tbird's slim neck...
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Yeah, the neck is definately a change of pace - I do prefer a Gibson. I think the ledger is more than balanced by the tone you get. ;)
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Yeah, the neck is definately a change of pace - I do prefer a Gibson. I think the ledger is more than balanced by the tone you get. ;)
Changing pickups is almost as easy changing clothes. A bit more difficult to change your neck profile; human or bass. :)
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Agreed, but I have clothing "issues" :)
I love the tone of a Greco TB II, if I could find an extra pup I'd likely put it in my Burny to angry it up a bit.
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Agreed, but I have clothing "issues" :)
I love the tone of a Greco TB II, if I could find an extra pup I'd likely put it in my Burny to angry it up a bit.
Pretty sure they're the same as Orvilles.
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And are those the same as the Japanese Epiphone Thunderbird pickups?
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Pretty sure they're the same as Orvilles.
I can't be definative because I really don't know too much about these, mine are very different from each other - maybe at some point they were same in each?
Greco, reminds one of an original '60s pup (except deeper) with it's sealed bottom.
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/veronicasteed/1314678525.jpg)
Orville, this looks like a contemporary Gibson with it's twin coils and large magnet
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/veronicasteed/1314678567.jpg)
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I had a Japan Epiphone, which is what the regular Orvilles were named at some point (different than the Orville by Gibson models). I also have a Greco II, and my guess is they're different pickups (at least the 70's models). Besides different looks, the 70's Greco sounds much more aggressive. More bite. My Greco II sounds more like a 60's NR than any other non 60's bird I've owned. A little more bite than my former '65 II (reverse), but still in that ballpark as well. My Japan Epiphone bird was a nice bass, but it sounded more docile by comparison.
If anyone can handle the chunkier neck (and slightly longer reach with the neck being set about 1" further out on the Greco), I highly recommend a 70's Greco II.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/gcarlston/auctions/Greco%20Thunderbird%20II/77GrecoThunderbirdIIbody7.jpg)
Greco
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/gcarlston/Basses/ejtbirdbody.jpg)
Epiphone Japan
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George, your Greco looks great! Far better shape than mine.
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I've owned Grecos (II and IV) and an Orville (IV) - the pickups are definitely not the same. The Greco pickups have thicker mids and have a higher output. The Orville I owned had a Gibby neck profile and 1.5" width, while all the Grecos have a wider P bass width neck. The Orville was a beautifully made bass, but the Grecos smoked it for tone and pure rock and roll badassness.
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My '89 Orville by Gibson's pups looked like Mark's. Metal bottom soldered to the can. I had Steve take one apart: twin coils with fatter wire and ceramic magnets which make them hotter than a 60s NR TBird. Close to a ThunderBucker MAX in output but a little harsher sounding. Maxshrek owns the OBG now.
Thunderbird pickups all have twin coils. Even bicentennials, they're just sideways.
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From my experience...the Orville By Gibsons and Greco's have the same pickups...The Orvilles are Epoxied on the bottom....What I like about Greco's is that the Body is exactly the same as a 60's Bird...while the others are shaped more like the 76 and later models...
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George, your Greco looks great! Far better shape than mine.
Up close there are dings and chips, especially on the sides and back. The front is nice though. If it weren't such a beautiful burst I'd be even more tempted than I am to paint it a custom color. I'm sure yours will look stunning when you do. Be sure and do the two piece bridge mod when you do! ;)
As for the nut, even with its 1.75" width, I find it more comfortable than the more shallow C width of the '66 P I owned a while back. The depth of the Greco's neck makes the width more comfortable (IMO, of course).
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From my experience...the Orville By Gibsons and Greco's have the same pickups...The Orvilles are Epoxied on the bottom....
So the Orvilles look like the ones in the shot I put up of the 8 string? Greco's have the same guts?
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Yes sir!. The orvilles were way Hotter in my opinion....the Greco's sounded good but not as hot.
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The pickups in my '89 Orville by Gibson (which I got from Baz) looked like Mark's, except no serial number.
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/veronicasteed/1314678525.jpg)
They were black when I got them. Some paint remover, buffing and rings and they looked like this:
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/89%20Orville/P1040245.jpg)
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If I may quote Teri Garr in "Young Frankenstein"
" zis iz a puzzlement" ;)
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If I may quote Teri Garr in "Young Frankenstein"
" zis iz a puzzlement" ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Kbyte51MY
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But..ya gotta admit...the placement of the lead is brilliant...and everything is inside...no fear of breaking any wires!!!! Gibson..if they had any Brain cells...would make their pickup covers like that.
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But..ya gotta admit...the placement of the lead is brilliant...and everything is inside...no fear of breaking any wires!!!! Gibson..if they had any Brain cells...would make their pickup covers like that.
If vintage Tbird pups were made like that there would be no way to rewind or repair one. You'd have to throw them away like a Bicentennial or TB plus when they went bad. They sound the way they do in no small part by having that sheet metal bottom plate which increases magnet mojo. It also makes them completely self shielded, unlike TB plus which do have problems in that area. Does make them more expensive to make. Vintage TBird pups are like a small block Chevy, easy to work on and begging to be hotrodded.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Kbyte51MY
D licious! Though those look more like Cs. ;)
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If vintage Tbird pups were made like that there would be no way to rewind or repair one. You'd have to throw them away like a Bicentennial or TB plus when they went bad. They sound the way they do in no small part by having that sheet metal bottom plate which increases magnet mojo. It also makes them completely self shielded, unlike TB plus which do have problems in that area. Does make them more expensive to make. Vintage TBird pups are like a small block Chevy, easy to work on and begging to be hotrodded.
Uh...I'm talking about the Greco pickups...not the Epoxy bottomed pick ups...
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Uh...I'm talking about the Greco pickups...not the Epoxy bottomed pick ups...
Oh, my bad.:-[ :-[
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The only Epoxied ones that I think are ALL TIME KILLER are the ones with the split coils...Like the broken one Mark Hills gave me...I sent it to Steve soar a year ago to analyze...and he NEVER responded to me about it..if it can be duplicated, etc. Did He ever mention that to you?? Kinda sucks that He never contacted me about it.
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The only Epoxied ones that I think are ALL TIME KILLER are the ones with the split coils...Like the broken one Mark Hills gave me...I sent it to Steve soar a year ago to analyze...and he NEVER responded to me about it..if it can be duplicated, etc. Did He ever mention that to you?? Kinda sucks that He never contacted me about it.
That doesn't sound like Steve, I'll ask him about it.
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Thanks! By the way..NICE job on the Explorer Birds!!!!
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Thanks, Baz! Should be hearing from SS about that pup.
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Hi Baz, looks like I dropped the ball on that one, sorry, but you *do* have my email and phone number, you could have given me a kick in the butt to remind me. I do have the pickup, is this the one? If so, I'll get to it later this week. OK to post at this forum?
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... OK to post at this forum?
Far too polite for us... ;D
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Hey, there's that poor little lamb that lost it's way ;)
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Oh yeah, All good, I know...I should have called...Just was reminded of it. Any possibilities???? The tone of these is sick??? Can it be duped???
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The split coil is similar to a Fender Precision split pickup... Great Tone!!!
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Just buy a Thunderbucker! Talk about sick tone!
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Just buy a Thunderbucker! Talk about sick tone!
Hear hear, I second that!
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Oh yeah, All good, I know...I should have called...Just was reminded of it. Any possibilities???? The tone of these is sick??? Can it be duped???
well, this one is totally dead, if that is what you are asking. Epoxy potted pickups are not very repairable. But one coil is intact, so I should be able to get electrical measurements off of it, and the other is broken open so I can tell the wire type and size, take flux measurements on the ferrite magnets. I should be able to learn quite a lot about it. It is a split coil, like a P bass, but the two coils share a common magnet up the center, then each coil has it's own magnet on the side. It is an unusual design....
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It's actually a cousin to a '76 pup IIRC, pretty sure I have another on the bench (amongst model train stuff!) at home.
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The '76's didn't have split coils......and they were sidewinders....
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I gotta go do some looking, I recall one that I had which in essence looked just like this one except that it wasn't swimming in epoxy..........
And, I'm prepared to be completely wrong here too. ;)
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Baz, here is your pickup report...
An unusual pickup design—two coils, each serving two strings, like a P bass. But each coil is on the opposite pole of a central magnet shared by both coils. And each coil has an secondary magnet mounted to the outside of the coil, which energizes one of the two pole pieces that each coil has. So, a total of three magnets, four pole pieces, and 2 coils.
The two coils should be wired out of phase to cancel induced mag field noise, and since they are on opposite poles of the magnet, the string signals will still be in phase, like in all humbuckers.
In pix1, we see the central magnet, where the yellow paint is indicating the N pole of the magnet. The 2 pieces of copper foil are to ground the steel pole pieces, so they will not pick up noise. The foil wrap touches the steel at the interface between the central magnet and the pole piece . One coil was where all the damage is, and the other is at the other side of the magnet where you see the 2 steel pole pieces.
In pix2 you can see the secondary magnet, its purpose is to magnetically energize the lower of the two pole pieces (it isn't touching the central magnet, so it isn't energized by it—hence the need for another magnet). Why not a single steel pole piece? I suspect it is an attempt to reduce eddy current losses in the pole piece, tho I doubt it is necessary, and a single pole piece would make the pickup much easier to build.
In coil1 you can see the 2 pole pieces, the secondary magnet, and the copper coil wires.
Specs:
Central magnet: Ferrite, .2” X .55” X 2.35” ~140mT pole strength
Secondary magnet: Ferrite, .2” X .2” X 1.2” (about half as long 'cause it only covers one coil) ~110mT pole strength.
Pole pieces: cold rolled steel, .062” X .7” X 1.135”
Bobbin: molded plastic, .385” tall, .56” wide, length over all 1.5”. Winding area .3” tall,.285” wide, 1.26” long. Pole slot 1.13” long X .185” wide.
Coil: wound with AWG 44 solderable. Intact coil measures 5.50Kohm, L 2.628H, Q 2.641 at 1kHz. (this is with the iron inside, raw coil would be lower L and Q). I estimate between 4500 and 6500Turns. You'd have to wind one and sneak up on the final value.
Probably a pretty powerful and yet bright pickup. The overall R would be about 10K (2 coils) and about 5.2H. Not much losses due to the 2 pole pieces and the ferrite magnets (much less lossy than alnico)
Maybe not very warm sounding, ferrites tend not to sound that way.
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FANTASTIC!!!! Question is...Can you duplicate it???
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Actually, I could probably fix this one, if you let me mill off the coil leftovers and buy me a spool of 44. I don't use that gauge....
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Now that is hardcore...
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Now that is hardcore...
In January 1976 ThunderBucker and I convoyed from Gainesville, Florida to Hollywood, California. He in a 1965 VW Baha bug and me in my '60 Austin Healey Sprite. The Sprite sucked a valve somewhere in Texas. Finally in Tucson, Arizona we pulled into a DIY garage (those were the good old days) realizing I wasn't going to make it through the mountains. We removed the cylinder head and Steve proceeded to lap a new valve in with nothing but a power drill and grinding paste. Yes, he's fairly hardcore.
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Now that must have been a story, so please do so if you would... probably best in it's own thread... :popcorn:
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What model of the Sprite was it? Colour? Why you bought her? Was everything all right after Steves job? What happened to her? Wow, there's a good story here, I guess!!! :mrgreen:
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What model of the Sprite was it? Colour? Why you bought her? Was everything all right after Steves job? What happened to her? Wow, there's a good story here, I guess!!! :mrgreen:
First model, "bug eye" (frog eye). Originally white, by that time primer gray. It was given to me in '72 with rusted through floorboards and a broken gearbox which I rebuilt on a dining room table, combining the best parts from 2 transmissions. Made it to L.A. the next night and became rich and famous. Sold in '79 when my wife brought a brand new metallic black X-19 to the marriage...all true except the rich and famous part. ;)
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I loved the look of the bugeye Sprite and was so disappointed in the bland looking second model.
Those were the days, though. If you wanted a British sports car you needed to at least know how to tinker with them.
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B-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l! :rimshot:
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I was just thinking about how shocked most people would be today at how primitive the Sprites (and MG Midgets) were. No side windows, they had those acrylic plastic side screen assemblies you had to manually put in place. No door locks, and the only door handles were on the inside. Manual top (of course) and IIRC you had to assemble a separate frame before you put the top on. Maybe Carlo can confirm. They didn't even have a heater as standard equipment, not that a heater would do much.
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I was just thinking about how shocked most people would be today at how primitive the Sprites (and MG Midgets) were. No side windows, they had those acrylic plastic side screen assemblies you had to manually put in place. No door locks, and the only door handles were on the inside. Manual top (of course) and IIRC you had to assemble a separate frame before you put the top on. Maybe Carlo can confirm. They didn't even have a heater as standard equipment, not that a heater would do much.
Yep, sliding side curtains. By the time I got my Bugeye there was no key, just a toggle switch for the ignition. The windshield wipers were a joke. Heater was standard, it just didn't have any controls. There was a heater core with a faucet type valve to allow water from the radiator to flow though it that you accessed from under the bonnet. Then it was "on" until you reversed the procedure. Putting on the top required mounting the separate frame and then stretching the vinyl over the frame and attaching it with various snaps to the car and windshield, 10 minutes minimum. In contrast putting up the top on my Alfa Spyder took one hand and less than 30 seconds. I guess it didn't rain in Britain in the 60s.
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Don't be daft - they only came out of the garage on the one sunny afternoon of the year... usually mid week when everyone else was at work... Ah, the good old days of full employment and quiting your job on a whim, knowing you could walk into a new one...
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We removed the cylinder head and Steve proceeded to lap a new valve in with nothing but a power drill and grinding paste. Yes, he's fairly hardcore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn1VRpDljmM
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Good 'un, Mark! Here's the urban version. Streets of L.A., 1978, before I woke up one morning to find my side curtains and top gone.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/CARS/SPRITE.jpg)
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Could be the starting line of one helluva blues tune:
"I woke up one morning
to find my side curtains and top gone"
Could concern the matter of a bloke waking up with his sideburns and mop laying on his pillow.
Now, take it from there! But remember to not forget to give cred to co-writers Carlo and Stjofön! :mrgreen:
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Hardcore, shit, that weren't nothing. While getting ready for our transnational outing, I was putting new pistons and cylinders (from JC Whitney--remember them?) on my bug. They were "high compression". I think 7.8:1. Whew. Stand Back! Anyway, while putting them on, I didn't have the band clamp set right and broke one of the top rings.
No sweat, head down to the import parts store and get another set. Back at the bug, find out that the top ring for my "hi compression" pistons was only 1.5mm thick vs the standards which were 2mm. Crap. Went to a couple of machine shops who just shook their heads.
I was not going to miss our convoy out of Gainesville to our Bright Future in Hollywood. Filled with automotive mayhem--Marty's van ate an alternator in a rainstorm in Biloxi, Carl's Sprite a valve in Tucson, etc.
I had to remove .5mm off that ring. Armed with a plate of glass off an old TV front (they were flat back then), some silicon carbide dust from my parent's rock tumbler, and an orbital sander, I proceeded to grind away that .5mm, checking for high spots with a micrometer, and pressing harder on those areas, until I had the ring ground down to 1.5mm all the way around. Carefully put that sucker in and ran that baby all the way out to CA, and still running strong when I sold it several years later.
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"I woke up one morning
to find my side curtains and top gone"
Barely enough left... for me ta sit on...