I've heard of barn finds but this is beyond fantastic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvveoQRVBxY
And here's a T-34 pulled out of a bog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxYXNLrXBgE&feature=relmfu
And a T70...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNcvlToTW-A&feature=relmfu
And a KV-1...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSk85mjbpDM&feature=relmfu
And another T-34, marked with German crosses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNJ-acc9Qsk&feature=relmfu
That is just too cool.
I'm waiting for the crews to come out!!!
(http://www.dvd.net.au/movies/h/11175-2.jpg)
Wikipedia says the STUG weighed 52,690 pounds. It would take one hellacious big-ass 'dozer to pull one out of a bog!
Yeah, and that's a LITTLE fella! I can't imagine the suction applied to something that heavy stuck under mud and all that water.
The videos are fascinating for a number of reasons. That all the tanks in the posted videos actually rolled is amazing. I also find it interesting that most of the ones in swamps and bogs were upside down. Makes me think that road/path they were on were really narrow and one side of the tank slid off and it rolled over. The Russian tanks were filled with mines, shells, hand grenades, etc. Looks like they were evacuated in a hurry by the tankers!
Not to hijack this, but I worked with a former German tank corps soldier. He told us that there were only two divisions of the Nazi military that wore black uniforms - tank corp and SS. The orders to the Allies on invading Germany were to "shoot to kill if it's wearing black". My coworker told us that the tank corps personnel were burning their uniforms inside the tanks before they left them.
It really surprised me that every one of those tanks had treads that worked after sitting in mud and water for so long. It speaks to how incredibly robust and durable the parts involved in that tread assembly are.
I also noted how many were upside down - I suspect that many of them sank into soft areas with one side lower than another, and the weight of the turret was enough to turn them over as they sank.
Quote from: gweimer on December 08, 2011, 11:38:21 AM
Not to hijack this, but I worked with a former German tank corps soldier. He told us that there were only two divisions of the Nazi military that wore black uniforms - tank corp and SS. The orders to the Allies on invading Germany were to "shoot to kill if it's wearing black". My coworker told us that the tank corps personnel were burning their uniforms inside the tanks before they left them.
I read the same thing. I imagine the tank crews wore black because the inside of those things were probably pretty grubby after they'd been in the field for a while. They got screwed when lumped in with the SS!
Quote from: Pilgrim on December 08, 2011, 12:07:35 PM
It really surprised me that every one of those tanks had treads that worked after sitting in mud and water for so long. It speaks to how incredibly robust and durable the parts involved in that tread assembly are.
I also noted how many were upside down - I suspect that many of them sank into soft areas with one side lower than another, and the weight of the turret was enough to turn them over as they sank.
I suspect being submerged in the cold water of the bogs helped a lot because I'm sure there's little oxygen down there and the cold would prevent the grease from deteriorating thus keeping the bearings from seizing.
Early in the war, and through most of it, the German tracked vehicles had narrow tracks. These were fine until spring when the snows thawed. They simply weren't wide enough to support the vehicle so I'm willing to bet that's why most of the German vehicles found are these. They probably never had the chance to get blown up but were abandoned where they sank.
The black uniform thing is true. A couple of fire brigade men with black uniforms were unceremoniously shot by GIs in my hometown Dieburg when the town was occupied/surrendered (French POWs - we had inter alia a military hospital for POW French officers - negotiated a truce with advancing US troops) in 1945, it was the only reported atrocity. Ever since the battle of the Bulge and the massacre of yank POWs at Malmedy by SS rear forces the guys in black had a very nasty reputation. Not every SS man was a villain, not every Wehrmacht guy an angel, but the SS went needlessly cruel as early as 1940 when they shot English POWs in France in a blood-feverish frenzy. That was unheard of until then and the Wehrmacht was aghast. English soldiers were perceived as the "cream of the enemy" by German forces (and accorded best treatment in German POW camps).
SS tank commander, note skull on hat but never on collar which has the SS runes:
(http://qmfashion.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/witt_98.jpg)
Wehrmacht tank commander, skull sometimes on beret AND ALWAYS on collar:
(http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Uniformen/PanzerUniform/schutzm.jpg)
Fire brigade uniform - in hindsight an unfortunate, even tragic choice:
(http://www.feuerwehrmuseum-nuernberg.de/upload/uniformen/uniform_1939.JPG)
Really interesting photos, Uwe! That Wehrmacht tank commander outfit with the skull and crossbones surprises me!
Sort of on topic in relation to the SS...
My tennis teacher in high school had been a Colonel in WWII and a liaison officer with Gen Maurice Rose of the 3Rd Armored Division. When they were in Italy was the first time US troops had to deal with the SS.
In one encounter US troops and SS were fighting each other from opposite sides of a raised railway line. Each side would hold guns over their heads and try to shoot the other. At one point, the SS raised their hands and stood up as though they were surrendering. When the US troops stood up, the SS dropped and their comrades behind them opened up with machine guns, killing the US troops.
He said after that they pretty much shot any and all SS troops they ran across even if they were surrendering.
Another old guy in my neighborhood said the cruelest German soldiers he ran across were Hitler Youth. If I remember correctly he said they shot a lot of them too.
The Hitler Youth thing comes as no surprise, there was an SS Division Hitler Jugend made up solely of fanaticized trigger-happy ex-Hitler Youth boys and they were actually (mostly still in their late teens) the ones responsible for the vile shooting of the Brit POWs in France 1940. Which had the Wehrmacht railing against what it called "putting fanatic children under guns and sending them to the front".
Following the (morally right and inherently patriotic) about-face of the Italians in 1943, German forces (not just SS) severely toughned up their conduct there, viewing all Italians as "traitors" (when in fact they had done what the Germans were unable to do: save their country from utter destruction). Incredibly ugly things happened there, mass shootings of interned Italian forces, bad treatment of Italian POWs, retaliatory (or just for the heck of it) massacres of the Italian civil population, it's a very dark chapter.
Quote from: Pilgrim on December 08, 2011, 12:07:35 PM
It really surprised me that every one of those tanks had treads that worked after sitting in mud and water for so long. It speaks to how incredibly robust and durable the parts involved in that tread assembly are.
I also noted how many were upside down - I suspect that many of them sank into soft areas with one side lower than another, and the weight of the turret was enough to turn them over as they sank.
Thinking the same thing!
Well and the crews too
Uwe, I'm curious. Is your knowledge of German WWII history common to people our age (and was it taught that frankly in school)? If so, is it still being taught that way? If that's the case I commend the German people for being willing to face history in a more honest manner than many.
Quote from: Pilgrim on December 08, 2011, 09:25:38 AM
Wikipedia says the STUG weighed 52,690 pounds.
But definitely looks smaller than you'd imagine something that heavy to look. I don't think I'd like to be spending my working day inside one of those!
Quote from: OldManC on December 08, 2011, 06:46:23 PM
Uwe, I'm curious. Is your knowledge of German WWII history common to people our age (and was it taught that frankly in school)? If so, is it still being taught that way? If that's the case I commend the German people for being willing to face history in a more honest manner than many.
Glad you mentioned that. I'm curious about that too. I work with lots of Germans and have found that some of them will make sarcastic jabs at the '33-45 period.
The tank find is like a young child's dream. I remember when we were kids there was a smaller miltary tracked vehicle abandoned far in the woods near us. We used to play on it as kids. Later they built a school on the property & the vehicle removed.
Wow what a time capsule! Still wearing winter camo, tools in the tool box, treads still roll. I wonder if someone had to climb in and put it in neutral?
Quote from: Denis on December 08, 2011, 05:19:56 AM
I've heard of barn finds but this is beyond fantastic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvveoQRVBxY
Quote from: uwe on December 08, 2011, 07:47:24 AMI'm waiting for the crews to come out!!!
I don't know how much a horror fan you are, but there is a good movie about this subject that I think you would enjoy.
Citizen Kane, it ain't, but I enjoyed it. Good name too. ;)
Outpost (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0892899/)
BTW, the firefighter helmet has new badguy life:
http://yojoe.com/sideshow/10/cobrasniper/title_large.shtml
http://yojoe.com/sideshow/09/cobratrooper/title_large.shtml
http://yojoe.com/sideshow/09/cobraofficer/title_large.shtml
I saw a very interesting German documentary yesterday about the Wehrmacht's collusion in the holocaust and killing of Russian prisoners.
It's called "The Unknown Soldier" and is based on extensive German research. Streaming on Netflix and worth a look before deciding who were the good and bad soldiers of the Reich.
Oooh, I'd love to see that. I'll see if I can get a copy via Netflix.
Like Uwe said, not all SS were evil and not all Werhmacht were saints. That said, GIs committed atrocities too.
It's worth noting that the Germans and Russians respected no treaties in their treatment of prisoners. Something like 20 million Russians died at the hands of the Germans. And of the whole 6th Army who went to Stalingrad, only around 100,000 survived long enough to be prisoners and of those, fewer than 5-6000 lived long enough to be released from POW camps in 1955.
Quote from: godofthunder on December 09, 2011, 06:28:00 AM
Wow what a time capsule! Still wearing winter camo, tools in the tool box, treads still roll. I wonder if someone had to climb in and put it in neutral?
There are two two door hatches in front of the superstructure that allow access to the brakes I suspect they released them from there.
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sturmgeschutz-iii-sturmgeschutz-iv.htm
Quote from: Muzikman7 on December 10, 2011, 05:10:13 PM
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sturmgeschutz-iii-sturmgeschutz-iv.htm
Cool site! Look at the production increase after December, 1942! I guess old Speer was doing his job well after Todt died in that plane crash.
Variant: Production Period: Number Produced:
Ausf A January - May 1940 30
Ausf B June 1940 - May 1941 320
Ausf C May - September 1941 50
Ausf D May - September 1941 150
Ausf E September 1941 - March 1942 272
Ausf F March - September 1942 359 + 1 prototype
Ausf F/8 September - December 1942 334
Ausf G December 1942 - March 1945 7720 + 173 converted
The kills they racked up were pretty amazing also.
What does it say about me that I really want one?
Quote from: Denis on December 11, 2011, 06:44:23 AM
What does it say about me that I really want one?
Most guys just get sportscars Denis
Among the collections I've seen near the past few places I've lived are:
1. Vintage Fire Truck collection. It was 2 or 3 in this guy's back yard.
2. Ambulance collection, currently just down the road from me.
3. An iron works business in Des Plaines, IL had their back lot filled with about 20+ old Ford Thunderbirds in various states of decay.
Quote from: OldManC on December 08, 2011, 06:46:23 PM
Uwe, I'm curious. Is your knowledge of German WWII history common to people our age (and was it taught that frankly in school)? If so, is it still being taught that way? If that's the case I commend the German people for being willing to face history in a more honest manner than many.
George, no, German schools do not teach the difference between SS- and Panzer-uniforms, not back in the sixties and seventies and not today! :mrgreen: Any teacher who would have then or now would have been either sent to the funny farm or put under observation of our intelligence services for being a Nazi apologist!
What you are taught in school are the historical surroundings, how the Weimar Republic, though a good state idea in principle, was unloved by large parts of the population, how it was governed by weak administrations and how save for the social democrats and the communists (already forbidden and prosecuted by then) all political parties, whether conservative, Kaiser-oriented, liberal or catholic sided with Hitler's NSDAP in the end in the hope that he would maintain "law and order" only to see any kind of lawful approach by the Nazis evaporate almost immediately. And the saying of a clergyman that
"We were silent when they took the communists because we weren't communist, we were silent when they took the social democrats and union members because we weren't social democrats or union members, we were silent when they took the jews because we weren't jewish and by the time they came to take us, there was no one left to help us". You are taught about the raging anti-semitism and the oppression of the jews, the inability of western democracies to initially cope with Hitler and his early successes of putting Germany "back on the map" (also how the exploding defense spending and Germany's rising isolation on the world market made war an economic necessity, the Reichsmark as a currency was doomed). The system of terror as concentration camps sprang up everywhere in the country. Hitler Youth and propaganda.
What you do not learn about is any kind of military technology aspects or much of how the war went, just the battles that were turning points, initial Blitzkrieg successes, Battle of Britain, the entry of the US into the war, El Alamein, Stalingrad, D-Day and the long and painful, vastly destructive final year of the Reich. The holocaust, the genocide atrocities in the East and West, the failed assassination of Hitler. The turning of German cities into rubble.
By and large a sensible curriculum I'd say as it is more important to learn and know these things than to be able to tell the dif between a King Tiger and a Panther! ;)
My parents were both in their teens during the Nazi era. My dad, although a Hitler Youth, despised the Nazis coming from a well-to-do middle class (his dad was like him a construction engineer) family with a social democratic conscience. He saw the US soldiers that entered Dieburg in 1945 truly as liberators, made friends with them and engaged in black market trading as a youth (plus crashing a Jeep in drunken stupor when driving around US officers and their German Fräuleins)! My mom came from an unskilled labor background, her dad had joined the Nazis early and made somewhat of a career as a public servant after they came to power before - the idiot - volunteering for the army even though as a father of three girls he wouldn't have needed to initially. The NSDAP stamp in his soldier pass had him languish until 1949 in Soviet hospitality, but he never said a bad word about the Russians ("they had nothing to eat, we didn't have anything either") and was always careful to mention that "I wasn't beaten once during captivity with the Russians" and "the Russian peasant women gave us potatoes in winter". That is partly why I think that setting off German atrocities against Russian ones is ill-founded, the Russians didn't invite us to attack them (Stalin preparing to attack the Reich is historically false) and their atrocities had nothing of the genocidal single-mindedness of German atrocities, but were mostly based on callousness and revenge. The Stalingrad POWs were near death when they were captured and while every second Red Army soldier died in German captivity, only every third German soldier died in Soviet captivity and most of these during the early days of the war. Russia also offered reciprocal Geneva Convention treatment for the prisoners of both sides after Stalingrad, it was turned down flatly by Hitler and the Wehrmacht who are therefore to blame for what happened to German POWs from then on. They wanted heroes and victims not survivors that send Christmas cards from Russian camps (historical fact: German POWs in Russian camps were allowed to write home during the war but the Nazis would not deliver those letters to their families which led many families to despair thinking their loved ones were killed or MIA).
Both my dad and my mom were outspoken ant-Nazi at any time I knew them, they always spoke of the era and the people in power then with distaste. With my mom, given how she had come from a "Nazi household" and had been an active and affirming member of the female Hitler Youth (Bund Deutscher Mädel), there was an added feeling of having been abused as a teen. She always felt ashamed for a photograph of her class where she had handmarked two classmates "as terror bombing victims of the Americans" and would sigh "my mind was manipulated back then".
When my dad and my mom married it was in fact an issue that he from the anti-Nazi family would marry "the daughter of that old Nazi".
My knowledge of WW II things stems mostly from my teenage youth (though I have read the more recent Hitler and Goebbels biographies with great interest and still get stuck on whatever channel shows something on WW II), model plane building leads you to war (hero) books and so forth. My parents shook their heads at this, but did not interfere. When I was visiting The American School in Kinshasa (TASOK) there was of course some typecasting of me as the "kraut" and "hun" (never in a mean way though) and I kind of lapped that up and decided to make myself smart about that era. Consequently, I read both - in English from the TASOK library, it's not legal in Germany - Hitler's Mein Kampf (deemed a dumb book by me even then), Marx' The Capital (deemed an interesting book by me even then though as a 15 year old I could hardly understand parts of it), survivor literature from the death camps and military history stuff like "Waffen SS Uniforms from 1939-45" at the same time! I devoured it all, but the background from home never let me forget that every downed Me 109 was a step towards the liberation of Auschwitz.
These days, my low pc comments on German WW II history are mostly taken with headshaking good humor by people who know me and my left-liberal background, but people who don't sometimes cautiously ask "You are not really serious about all this, are you?". Edith for one is prone to say: "Sometimes you have me worried, your obsession with this stuff just isn't normal." And I understand that there are certain circles that discuss Waffen SS insignia as if it was "just another military outfit" which it wasn't, it was one of the military arms of the vilest and most criminal and inhumane regime (as was the Wehrmacht any any other military or civil organisation of the Third Reich) and you can remove the technology of a King Tiger only that far from the technology of the gas chambers, it's all tainted and besmirched by the same intolerable ideology behind it. But perversely intriguing at the same time.
Uwe, that is a very interesting and insightful essay! It provides a fairly unusual take on the whole '33-45 period in large part because it's just not that common to hear Germans discussing this stuff so openly (at least here). I'm sure your generation is more open to reading about this stuff and discussing it than previous generations who may still have a "I'm not talking about it" approach.
It is important, and you touched on this, to clearly remember that, although all the equipment, uniforms, regalia etc., of the '33-'45 period is pretty damn fascinating, it all directly or indirectly represented a rotten-to-the-core principle (if you call it that) of anti-Semitism, paranoia and supreme egotism of a nut job failed artist and people willing to follow them anything they thought would better their situation. Sometimes people ask for too much and it sure cost them and everyone else a hell of a lot.
Thanks, Uwe. IMO if everyone made the effort to study his country's history as you have we'd be better off.