24 school kids killed this year. That's just in Chicago!
Philadelphia, Cleveland & Detroit all have similar issues.
It's not working, our gun system - sorry
Something has to be done
http://www.blackstarproject.org/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=38
QuoteDeath Chases African American Children
Chicago loses more black kids than soldiers in Iraq to gun violence
May 24, 2007
By Phillip Jackson
Recently in Chicago, a teen gunman boarded a crowded public bus near a high school and opened fire with a handgun. I imagined this scene must have been similar to the bus bombings that are so common in wartorn Iraq.
As I researched this analogy, I found striking similarities between what is happening in black communities across the United States and what is happening in a full-fledged war zone in Iraq. The major difference is that far more black children are dying in Chicago than Chicago soldiers are dying in Iraq.
At about 24 deaths a year, Chicago children are being killed 24 times the rate that Chicago soldiers are being killed in Iraq. Statistics from Military Genealogy Trails show that during the five-year period between September 2001 and July 2006, six soldiers from Chicago were killed in Iraq combat. In a startling comparison, however, during an eight-year period between 1998 and 2007, 190 Chicago Public School children, mostly black, died in gun-related incidents.
This year, the violent death toll in nine months totals 27 for Chicago's public school students, again, mostly black youth.
Either we need to take all the guns away or we need to arm every school kid with an automatic weapon with Kevlar vests, bullet proof busses and armed guard escorts.
Maybe we need the troops & Marshall law at home?
This is just unacceptable. Most people don't care because its inner city poverty/gang related black kids killing each other.
Something has to be done. If we continue to allow kids owning guns, then we need to arm all of them to give them a fair chance to shoot back.
I bet this is not the case in other gun free countries.
It shouldn't go on though violence in black communities is not just a gun thing. But of course you can ask yourself the question whether males of any race and under 30 years old should be able to hold a gun for private use outside of a rifle range.
Given how much guns are on the black market in the US you would also have to hike prison terms quite a bit for illegal gun trading. And make ammunition almost impossible to get because that is something that black market gun owners will run out sooner or later.
Quoteit shouldn't go on though violence in black communities is not just a gun thing.
You're absolutely right. I was listening to public radio, and they had a show about how much of a problem it is. They interviewed kids and teachers at Chicago inner city public schools. Kids who aren't gang members, who just want an education are either shot or bullied into joining gangs. They are afraid to go to school!
The kids said you have to fight people regularly, weather you want to or not. Sometimes a fight happens the kids comes back with a gun. The teachers say it's not their job to be social workers and have to constantly break up fights. It also does not help that a lot of theses kids do not have fathers-many of them go to prison, the mom's work three jobs and is never around.
The whole Rap Gansta image glorifies the lifestyle to young kids.
Most people turn their backs to the problem because it is mostly in poverty stricken inner city neighborhoods and usually gang related.
Still providing them with guns seems like a bad idea to me. They should create what ever steps it takes to get illegal guns off the streets. It just can't go on like this. no one can tell me that more can't be or should be done.
Maybe we need a troop surge in these neighborhoods to police & escort kids back & forth from school. It's a war zone.
Quote from: Barklessdog on April 17, 2008, 05:14:18 AM
24 school kids killed this year. That's just in Chicago!
Philadelphia, Cleveland & Detroit all have similar issues.
It's not working, our gun system - sorry
Something has to be done
It's not the gun system that is not working. It's the school and justice system that is not working. What's the rap for murder in Chicago? How many death row inmates are waiting on years of appeals? The Justice system needs to be strict and swift.
Laws banning guns cannot be expected to have any better results than laws banning heroin.
True, that's why marshal law should be declared in these neighborhoods, or go door to door getting the guns with the military?
For me this isn't just a distant inner city thing. I'm a practicing Realtor who may be naive, but helping some of my clients takes me through some troubled neighborhoods. Residential buyers, developers, and commercial businesses shun areas where young males are shuffling aimlessly down every street or hanging out on the corners, so the economies are depressed and school funding tied to property values is messed up. What's more bizarre is to witness this in neighborhoods with good housing stock and well-kept yards. It's sad because a family with an estate sale property or pending forclosure may not find a buyer. The counter-reaction to CPD shooting a cougar this week has been "why can't they control violent threats on the streets and in the schools?". Do I want to carry a handgun for protection? Not, but I certainly don't want to be confronted by one.
No gun law will ever keep organized crime from getting guns and using them. The good thing is that they regularly use them on each other and don't go around shooting in schoolyards.
But for a disenchanted and alienated US youth in a inner city ghetto it is just too easy (and cheap) to get a gun and that has to do with the prevalence they have due to liberal gun laws. To stick with the heroin example: If heroin was freely available to 18 year olds and up, you can bet your ass that there would be even more teenage junkies.
I don't think that a disenchanted and alienated young Turk in a Turkish immigrant ghetto in Berlin or a disenchanted and alienated Pakistani in a Paki immigrant ghetto in the Midlands in England have necessarily more criminal energy than a disenchanted and alienated black kid in the Bronx, but the black kid has a hell of an easier time in obtaining a gun. And you can wreak more havoc with those in a shorter time than with, say, a switchblade you would most likely have to settle for in Berlin or the English Midlands.
Uwe
A 17-year-old Chicago Public Schools student was killed during a dice game on the West Side on Tuesday night.
Marcus Greer was the 21st CPS student fatally shot since the beginning of the school year and the 24th to die violently.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/899946,CST-NWS-teen17.article
I'll have to disagree that liberal gun laws are the problem. Washington DC has had a handgun ban since 1976 (likely soon to be overturned by the Supreme Court) and yet gun violence there has soared well beyond increases elsewhere.
As long as there's a demand for addictive drugs and as long as our drug laws put the profits in the hands of criminal syndicates, these problems will continue.
And now, for a little levity (from part of a 1993 Showtime parody): http://youtube.com/watch?v=kRAd8AFab5I
"Washington DC has had a handgun ban since 1976"
But that's a microscopic area in a country that knows no surveilled or monitored borders between its states (if you consider DC as a state for sake of argument). Tougher handgun laws in one state won't change anything overall or do you think the youths will then stop buying illegal ones there because of the prevailing state law? What the liberal gun laws have caused is that there are so many weapons freely available on the black market too.
I know it's a touchy subject for you guys, an amendment right, your own history and concept of freedom etc. But I don't think the US would be a less great (or free) country with a couple of million handguns less. You're free to arm your police and double its manpower if security concerns you.
Quote from: uwe on April 17, 2008, 12:34:24 PM
"Washington DC has had a handgun ban since 1976"
But that's a microscopic area in a country that knows no surveilled or monitored borders between its states (if you consider DC as a state for sake of argument). Tougher handgun laws in one state won't change anything overall or do you think the youths will then stop buying illegal ones there because of the prevailing state law? What the liberal gun laws have caused is that there are so many weapons freely available on the black market too.
I know it's a touchy subject for you guys, an amendment right, your own history and concept of freedom etc. But I don't think the US would be a less great (or free) country with a couple of million handguns less. You're free to arm your police and double its manpower if security concerns you.
I don't think anyone pro or con does not believe there is not a problem, but something needs to be done. Just saying kids can get guns or drugs should not make one not try to do something.
There has to be a way to punish repeat offending dealers who can be traced back or make it harder to get or transfer a gun.
Quote from: Barklessdog on April 17, 2008, 01:13:04 PM
I don't think anyone pro or con does not believe there is not a problem, but something needs to be done. Just saying kids can get guns or drugs should not make one not try to do something.
There has to be a way to punish repeat offending dealers who can be traced back or make it harder to get or transfer a gun.
They could start by enforcing existing gun laws and letting the public know they are. Not licensed and you're found with a gun? You go to jail. Use a gun in the commission of a crime? You go to jail. For a LOOOOONG time. Etc, etc...
Another reason to send more blacks to prison!
I read that California are stacking them like firewood, the prisons are so over crowded
But true you have to enforce it. People with mental problems should not be gun owners either !
My son was surprised when we went to London and we did not have to pass through metal detectors like you have to around here (even in schools!)
capital punishment does not deter murder. guns laws don't stop people from getting guns . no sweeping anti anything laws have ever proved effective. the answer lies with each citizen and their sense of moral responsibility. i get tired of children dying because crack head mommy left her loaded 9mm under the bed. you can't teach people commom sense. i can't cure socity's ills but i can make my little corner of it safe. i have always owned guns and enjoyed shooting but over time they have lost their appeal for many reasons. i still have a few hanguns but since my grandaughter arrived i keep no ammunition. if i can't do anything else but keep her save that's enough for me. i have been in a gunfight before and don't ever want to see that again. but for now i have a very impressive ruger vaquerro .45 paperweight.
Responsible people should be able to own them.
You are right the problem is the homes & environment of these kids-no parents or parents who are kids or relatives who do not give a damm.
I still think putting troops in those areas is a good step. Someone needs to clean up this mess.
Quote from: uwe on April 17, 2008, 12:34:24 PM
But that's a microscopic area in a country that knows no surveilled or monitored borders between its states (if you consider DC as a state for sake of argument). Tougher handgun laws in one state won't change anything overall or do you think the youths will then stop buying illegal ones there because of the prevailing state law? What the liberal gun laws have caused is that there are so many weapons freely available on the black market too.
I know it's a touchy subject for you guys, an amendment right, your own history and concept of freedom etc. But I don't think the US would be a less great (or free) country with a couple of million handguns less. You're free to arm your police and double its manpower if security concerns you.
As long as there is demand, there will be guns available. More laws can't solve that problem. Laws had a major role in causing the problem.
Gangs are privatized illegal governments. As long as there is motivation for them to exist, and as long as firearms are produced, they will get guns, laws or no laws.
We've already got overly militarized police departments conducting armed SWAT raids. The last thing we need is more militarization. What we need is to make it easy in every state for private citizens to defend themselves. It won't stop gangs and crime but it will make honest individuals safer.
Something they did here which seems to be working is when they evicted the poverty people from the huge Chicago high rise ghettos like Cabrini Green (Candy Man), They relocated them to smaller public housing in nice neighborhoods. We have a small one near us and you can bet there are not shootings everyday in our fine upper class community. Funny though I have heard the police comment that a majority of our cities crime happens there, but not shootings. the cops are there all the time.
Of coarse nobody wants them living near you, there goes your property values, but I believe the moms are glad to get out and try to give their kids a better life. Of coarse these were public housing, not neighborhoods where people own a home in a terrible area, where a majority of this years shootings took place.
Cabrini Green
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Fenderbird/misc/cabrinigreen1.jpg)
Tore down
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Fenderbird/misc/cabrini.jpg)
Now it's being turned into trendy yuppieville with ultra expensive city style row houses & condos.
This is also not to far from Lakland, which is being forced to move as their land was sold
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/905411,wknviolence042008.article
31 people shot, 8 dead, 2 stabbed over just one weekend.
Quoten an especially violent weekend, no less than 31 people have been shot in Chicago -- six fatally -- and two people have been stabbed since noon Friday. The shooting victims range in age from 12 to 65.
On Friday, 15 people were shot -- four fatally -- between noon Friday and midnight Saturday, police said.
I find this appalling.
That is a lot, true, especially as we are not talking about Sao Paulo or Mexico City.
:-\ Wow. It was a safer weekend in all of Iraq.
Grand Theft Auto is now getting flack brought about by the weekend because a week from tomorrow the new game in the series is set to be released.
It is kind of sad to see some of the stuff that gets said about games these days but I don't think anything should really be pinned to the games alone.
When I guess the Mayor is fed up too, he's sending out SWAT assualt teams
http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/907531,CST-NWS-crime22.article
QuoteSWAT will go on patrol. And police plan to respond with gun, tactical and gang teams -- even SWAT officers in battle gear.
The unofficial weekend tally of 36 shootings over Friday, Saturday and Sunday was 14 more than the city experienced last year at the same time, police said. Seven people were killed.
Of the 36 shootings, 14 were classified as gang-related, Bond said. Seven juveniles were among the victims, including five who were out beyond curfew. So far this year, 21 Chicago Public Schools students have been shot to death.
One seasoned officer described the three days as "triage'' -- with detectives rushing from shooting to shooting.
Of the 36 shootings, 19 happened in the Wentworth Area that stretches south of downtown and west along the Stevenson Expy. The rest of the shootings were spread out among the remaining four detective areas of the city.
One law enforcement source said a new faction of Gangster Disciples that moved into the area's Englewood neighborhood is vying for control against longer-established members of the gang. In addition to the shootings, home invasions also have escalated, the source said.
I shouldnt even get into this discussion - since I'm a liberal pinko elitist - blame it on formative years growing up in Sweden, Denmark and Germany and too much reading of the International Herald Tribune and NY Times .. and my mom.
But here's an observation (no I dont have time to get the actual numbers) - I believe the US has one of the highest rates of per capita private gun ownership - on par with the "tribal" areas of Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan and perhaps Israel.
We also have gunshot mortality rates on par with those countries - with the exception of israel - where the reason there are a lot of guns is that a big chunk of the population is actually in the military reserves. So I'm not even sure if that qualifies as private gun ownership.
So how bout this - if you want to own ammunition - you have to be willing to be conscripted for 2 years - it'll give you training, a career potentially, help out the nation and teach you how to be responsible with a gun. Of course, conscription should include non-combat options hopefully !
if you just want to own guns - e.g. - a gun collector - no problem, you just can't get ammo for them. Kind of like all the guitars I have that I NEVER plug in actually. I guess the musket owners could get around this restriction by casting their own shot and mixing their own black powder, but its REALLY hard to do a drive-by with a muzzle loading musket !! ... Gotta drive REAL SLOW!!
:)
Oh by the way .. I watch the Colbert Report a lot .. so .. maybe take this post in that context ....
Quote from: bostonguitarrepair on April 22, 2008, 10:45:59 AM
So how bout this - if you want to own ammunition - you have to be willing to be conscripted for 2 years - it'll give you training, a career potentially, help out the nation and teach you how to be responsible with a gun. Of course, conscription should include non-combat options hopefully !
Just what we need, more militarization. When did self-confessed liberal pinko elitists start favoring conscription? ;)
Quote from: bostonguitarrepair on April 22, 2008, 10:45:59 AM
if you just want to own guns - e.g. - a gun collector - no problem, you just can't get ammo for them. Kind of like all the guitars I have that I NEVER plug in actually. I guess the musket owners could get around this restriction by casting their own shot and mixing their own black powder, but its REALLY hard to do a drive-by with a muzzle loading musket !! ... Gotta drive REAL SLOW!!
:)
And what percentage of gun-related crimes are committed by gun collectors? Just about Zero!
Anyway, we're teetering on the brink here, but always remember this:
correlation doesn't equal causation.
Quote5 killed in S. Side home
'THAT'S MY DAUGHTER' | Relatives of one victim say robbery may be motive of city's deadliest shooting since 2003
http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/912863,CST-NWS-shoot24.article
It just keeps going, almost everyday here. You just become desensitized to after so many YEARS of this.
In one of the worst mass killings in Chicago in years, three men and two women were found shot to death Wednesday afternoon in a ransacked South Side home.
The victims were found on the first floor of the home, police said. At least one was shot in the head.
One of the women was nude and the other was partially clothed, sources said.
Police said they did not have a motive for the shootings. But relatives of Richardson suspect the home was targeted for a robbery, possibly of his jewelry and art.
Richardson lived in the home with Flowers and they had a 2-year-old son, relatives said.
Her mother, Cheryl Flowers, arrived at the scene about 6 p.m.
"That's my daughter, that's my daughter," she said, weeping and collapsing into the arms of a relative.
She said her daughter did not show up for work at a suburban club where she is a dancer.
Next article -
Man charged in Englewood triple-homicide
April 24, 2008 Recommend
FROM STNG WIRE REPORTS
A 29-year-old man was charged with murder early Thursday for the April 4 murders of a husband, wife and teenage son in their West Englewood home.
Vennis McCall, of the 6100 block of Hermitage Avenue, was charged with three counts of first-degree murder and one count of criminal trespassing to a residence, police said.
McCall is scheduled to appear at the Cook County Criminal Courthouse later Thursday, police said.
McCall is accused of killing Danna McCowen-McCullough, 43; Allen McCullough Jr., 46; and Allen McCullough III, 19.
It just goes on & on.
Quote from: Dave W on April 22, 2008, 11:45:42 AM
Just what we need, more militarization. When did self-confessed liberal pinko elitists start favoring conscription? ;)
And what percentage of gun-related crimes are committed by gun collectors? Just about Zero!
Anyway, we're teetering on the brink here, but always remember this: correlation doesn't equal causation.
Ah .. I didn't say gun collectors committed gun-related crimes - just wanted to head off the "well what about gun collectors?" argument against controlling availability of ammunition. After all "guns don't kill people, bullets do !!"
:-*
The mayor is grappling with the same issue as our Olympic dreams drift away.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/commentary/915238,CST-NWS-page1edit25.article
We can't stop trying.
The problem is guns. No, it's not about guns.
Mayor Daley speaks on gun control in March at St. Sabina Church, with the Rev. Michael Pfleger joining him. He has called for a summit at City Hall today to search for solutions to the violence in recent weeks.
(Keith Hale/Sun-Times)
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Words from the street
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Editorial: We can't turn our backs
The problem is bad parents. No, we can't make bad parents good.
The problem is drugs. No, we can't stop the drugs.
The problem is jobs. No, we can't bring back the good jobs.
The problem is our schools. No, we can't ask our schools to solve all the problems that flow from broken families and broken neighborhoods.
But we can't stop trying.
Just three days ago, this newspaper all but begged Chicago to rise up and take action against the bloodshed on our streets, especially the shootings of children. We drove home our point by reversing almost every word on the front page of our Tuesday paper, saying, "We cannot turn our backs." We called for a civic campaign to stem the violence.
We were concerned, we will admit now, that our attention-grabbing front page might be ridiculed by some as a gimmick, a grandstanding way to sell newspapers. But we meant every word when we wrote: "Chicago must confront the carnage."
How can you just ignore something like this in your own back yard?
We do, because there is no easy answer. But to do nothing ?
QuoteWhen we wrote that first editorial on Tuesday, the weekend body count was seven more dead and 29 shot but alive.
Now, horrifyingly, the week's tally is 12 dead and 40 shot, five of them in a single massacre in a Chatham home.
I'm sure your all as sick as hearing about this as I am.
I'm going to just go back to ignoring it all as before, along with everyone else in this country, no answers, just as long as they only kill each other.
Well with the release of Grand Theft Auto IV coming up on Tuesday, I kind of expect acts of violence to be slightly pointed at games as they seem to be a lot these days.
Quote from: Big D Bassist on April 25, 2008, 11:34:35 AM
Well with the release of Grand Theft Auto IV coming up on Tuesday
I think I've seen that release! ;D
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5562359296511657726
It's easy to assume this is happening in another world. But I have clients on the south side, and I'm down there myself sometimes. I meet many nice people, church musicians, families, and so on. But the number of bodies aimlessly walking the streets is more than a curiosity. Not sure if I'm at risk or if the violence is more targeted. The lack of commercial development is pronounced, meaning no jobs. There are no FedEx/Kinko's to conduct business in for miles. No coffee shops. The city is building new libraries and subsidizing new low-income housing, but it's not enough. Imagine going from a comfortable corporate job to standing in vacant lots or obsolete homes in Englewood.
What can you as an individual do to make things better, or do you just stay home and stay safe? Well, my odds of being run over at my mailbox by an elderly or teenage driver on the North Shore are pretty high as well.
chromium, That was very enjoyable.