The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Bass Zone => Topic started by: Garrett on October 09, 2010, 06:43:31 AM
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John Entwistle
Oct. 9, 1944 / Jun. 27, 2002
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl39LBZGMw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl39LBZGMw)
John Entwistle would have been 66 years old today! He was a amazing Bass player. May he rest in peace!
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After selling and buying my collection gets more and more 'Entwistle', with a Fiesta P, a 4005, a Longhorn, a T-bird, a Buzzard, an Explorer, a Rivoli, ..
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All you need now is a Fenderbird... :rolleyes:
(http://gallery.me.com/vdbroekrob/100185/FT-1-20vrijstaand-20800pixels/web.jpg?ver=12865425190001)
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Sorry Chris, mines not for sale... ;)
RIP John (Enthwistle and Lennon)
Never realised that Entwistle and Lennon shared the same birthdate...
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Alas, famous and excellent bass player that he was, he was scarcely influential. Which is a pity. Same applies to Jack Bruce, Paul McCartney, Chris Squire,
Andy Fraser, Jim Lea, Steve Harris, Geddy Lee etc ... I hear almost no influence of theirs in modern top 40 rock music and what is even worse only a very limited influence of theirs even in less commercial market segments. Ok, you'll find a few young prog bands where the bass player has obviously heard Squire and Lee, but name me one bass player in a well-known band that has a noticeable Jack Bruce or JAE influence and is not close to sixty years old?
I think that is hugely deplorable. Guitar heroes like Jimmy Page, Hendrix, EvH, The Edge, Tony Iommi have all left their very audible mark, but bass playing which was liberated in the late sixties and early seventies has been hugely dumbed down and re-caged in modern music. When did you hear the last song on the radio that had a spectacular or at least a memorable bass line? Larry Graham has probably had a more lasting influence on funk and modern RnB than the above bass players combined have had on modern rock and pop.
A crime really.
Rant over!
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Great Rob!
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John Entwistle
Oct. 9, 1944 / Jun. 27, 2002
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl39LBZGMw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl39LBZGMw)
John Entwistle would have been 66 years old today! He was a amazing Bass player. May he rest in peace!
Case in point: What does this type pf bass solo have to do with most of what goes on bass-playing-wise in todays pop music? Zilch. :-\
That said and with all due respect: JAE is incredibly fast, but it's largely all pentatonic or - even less melodic - chromatic runs. He doesn't keep time in quite a few places. The sound is abrasive and without much bottom (due to the speed with which he plays a bassier sound wouldn't work, Stanley Clarke has the same issue when he plays that fast). I venture forth the argument that if a guitar player played the same type of solo note for note one octave higher and it was posted here, he would meet some derision.
I like John's (even solo) playing within songs (and he has a sense of melody and harmony as his horn arrangements show), but his bass solos of the above type appear adolescent and born out of frustration (along the lines of "I might not write the songs here, but I sure am the fastest instrumentalist of the group"). It sounds gimmicky and without emotion, a bass athlete.
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finally, i agree 100%.
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The reason we hear so little of the abovementioned players' influence is that by and large, bass became an undervalued instrument during the 80s and 90s leaving a huge hole in time. The advent of synth bass, sampling etc., pretty much emasculated it in pop music. The players that did flourish were hardly riff-happy rockers, with the exception of Billy Sheehan and Steve Harris.
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I enjoyed the hard-to-find "Bass Guitar Master Class with John Entwhistle" VHS this summer (from Hot Licks). The man had crazy long fingers & could use them like no other! Saw the book of his "collection" too - geesh! Obsess much? Lol. I bet they could continue to sell his entire collection for the next 50 years at one instrument per day! I'd never look right with a Buzzard, but he sure did.
Didn't realize he & Lennon had the same b-day either. Rad!
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Case in point: What does this type pf bass solo have to do with most of what goes on bass-playing-wise in todays pop music? Zilch. :-\
That said and with all due respect: JAE is incredibly fast, but it's largely all pentatonic or - even less melodic - chromatic runs. He doesn't keep time in quite a few places. The sound is abrasive and without much bottom (due to the speed with which he plays a bassier sound wouldn't work, Stanley Clarke has the same issue when he plays that fast). I venture forth the argument that if a guitar player played the same type of solo note for note one octave higher and it was posted here, he would meet some derision.
I like John's (even solo) playing within songs (and he has a sense of melody and harmony as his horn arrangements show), but his bass solos of the above type appear adolescent and born out of frustration (along the lines of "I might not write the songs here, but I sure am the fastest instrumentalist of the group"). It sounds gimmicky and without emotion, a bass athlete.
I very rarely disagree with your opinions Uwe and from a stricktly analytical perspective I guess there are certain valid points in your comments above.
But, ......... ;D
I dont know about JAE but when I write a bassline I dont (or cant) analyse my playing to the extent that experts are able to years after the recording has been done. Regarding Pentatonic/chromatic lines, I think the whole thing of critiquing any player based upon their lack of the use of modes and more complicated scales (Jazz?) Is akin to critisising Robert Johnson for not using the Phrygian mode enough in his solo's.
Just sayin' :)
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Frank Zappa, Eric Clapton, Brian May and Jack Bruce are all largely pentatonic players, I'd never criticize them for that (they are all melodic), much less a blues giant like Robert Johnson where I am not even worthy. JAE could play a wonderfully melodic bass solo based on pentatonic scales I'm sure. And as his horn arrangements and bass runs within the music show, he knows the difference between a major and a minor run. He does a wonderfully melodic bass solo on a Who by Numbers track which is often falsely credited to Townshend. Yet when he steps out for one of his "all by himself solos", all he does/did is that relentless, overtly techncal shredding. That is a waste of his huge talent and we wouldn't let a guitarist get away with it here.
I would prefer to hear JAE soloing with PT delivering harmony chords in the back. It escapes me why bass players do that so seldomly. Same applies to drummers. Having the band drop out for a bass or drum solo tends to let the technical aspects of whatever solo that follows become too dominant.
But my point wasn't to knock JAE but the fact that his playing hasn't really left an imprint with most bass players and can hardly be heard in music today. He deserves better, shredding excesses or not.
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I can watch him run over strings all day long...brings a smile to my face.
I love his playing and he was one of several bassists who was able (for me) to finally lift the bass from the depths of the studio recordings and wake me up.
Graham Maby, Gary Thain, Roger Glover & Chris Squire, Wetton, etc....these guys (and their sound engineers/producers) really boosted pop/rock music by bringing the bass into prominence. I guess certain types of music and/or certain bassists just impact different listeners in different ways.
Hell, there are many folks who absolutely love Michael Anthony's bass solos...now, I know none of you want me to post videos of that.
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I agree with Uwe wholeheartedly about the bass being so often just left to hang in an empty sonic space. Horn players, guitars, keys, you name it, they will have this rhythmic and harmonic foundation over which they can build and allow them to play in context. In my experience, few things empty out a room quicker than a "solo" bass solo.
Jaco et all are excluded from the above, although they don't appeal to such a wide audience, sadly.
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In jazz, it is customary for the bassist to blow over the changes...
Don't know why the rock "bass solo" came to mean meaningless wanking with the drums, rather than a well contructed solo over the changes.
Listen to Scott LaFaro on old Bill Evans records.
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When did you hear the last song on the radio that had a spectacular or at least a memorable bass line?
Red Hot Chili Peppers and Jamiroquai spring to mind...
Heck even White Stripes' Seven Nation Army, although the bass line wasn't played on a bass.
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Hell, there are many folks who absolutely love Michael Anthony's bass solos...now, I know none of you want me to post videos of that.
Argh! dont go there. I try and be reasonable and see the otherside of things most of the time so that I at least appear open minded in my opinions but MA just makes me cringe to listen to or worse, watch.
The only thing that I can take away from him is that if a player like him can get to play with a list of amazing musicians like he does then I shouldn't baulk at the opportunity to play with better and higher profile musicians either.
Facade destroyed :sad:
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Listen to the Chickenfoot album, he plays well on that and with more inventive lines than most hard rock bass players. I don't think Satriani would bother to be in one band with him if that weren't the case.
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Yep I agree I have listened to it. I like it because Satriani actually bothers to play rather than shred constantly, Chads drumming is what really makes the album for me and yes MA actually does do a reasonable job of pretending to be a bass player. Oh, and I have always been a fan of Sammy Hagars singing
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he has had quite a career 'pretending'...
so he plays simple lines. that is not a bad thing and is often the preferred option. even in bass playing.
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Jamerson could play simple lines too. Its all about what notes get chosen to be played simply. Which makes me sound like Uwe critisising JAE which is what started me off. Oh the irony ??? Oh the dichotomy. Screwed by Michael Anthony once again :P :)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3DZ_OxA0UQ
This guy does a very good tribute to a lot of the Jamerson songs. I really like his take on this one. Not an easy one to play by any means and it is even one of Anthony Jackson's favorites by Jamerson.
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That guy has put some time in the shed! Foe some things, a P w/ flats is the shyte!
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I remember the Van Halen debut for two things, EvH's solos and the sound of the backing vocals which sounded like no backing vocals had ever done before in my ears. I only learned years later that it was MA who provided these, multi-layered, and that his backing vocals have shaped the VH sound much as Brian May's multi-layered vocals shaped Queen (contrary to popular belief, Mercury wasn't much of a vocal overdubber at all, that was a Brian May recipe). And without those backing vocals, VH's early hits such "Dance the Night away" would have been unthinkable. DLR even had issues pitching when he sang by himself, harmonizing was beyond him (many lead vocalists are not good at it btw).
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I remember the Van Halen debut for two things, EvH's solos and the sound of the backing vocals
Actually I think Eddie Van Halen is an amazing rhythm guitarist too.
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Same as the backing vocals from the Elton John Band contributed so much to those great EJ hits from the 70s.
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:mrgreen: harmonizing.........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAWl5peI8HY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAWl5peI8HY)
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Yup, the old EJ band was great, he never managed to recreate that sound.
And I agree, EvH is a stunning rhythm guitarist, for some reason many yank players with technical prowess are. Steve Morse is another one - he has singlehandedly changed the groove of the Deep Purple juggernaut - and Tommy Bolin comes to mind too. In contrast, neither Blackmore, Clapton or Beck are rhythm guitarists to write home about. Page is the one English exception that springs to mind, for all his sloppy lead work, he's a very daring, iventive and original rhythm player. Zep's typical sound has a lot to do with that forte of his. Richars, of course, is a great rhythm player, but that is his main job anyhow.
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Speaking of harmonies...
These guys came out of the NJ shore circuit as an acoustic trio, but eventually added a drummer for live shows. I always thought they should have gone way further than they did. I highly recommend their lone album if you're into great songs with killer harmonies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uTo0QlY-o8
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Townshend is a more than respectable rhythm player... imho
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:mrgreen: harmonizing.........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAWl5peI8HY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAWl5peI8HY)
Brilliant! Freddie would be proud.