I've been somewhat keeping up with the incident at Sea World in which a killer whale killed a trainer in front of thousands of people. This is the third person the whale has killed. I'm one of those people who is actually very bothered by whale hunting and it's my understanding that only Japan and Norway still do that. I think it's a terrible practice. However, I also don't think whales killing people is a very good idea, either. Call me crazy but somehow I think a whale who has already killed three people should at the very least be retired. I'm just wondering if the profit motive may have anything to do with the fact that Sea World seems gung-ho on continuing with this killer whale show. To make matters worse, they are actually blaming the trainer for her own death because her ponytail got in the whale's way. I guess I'm in the minority, though, because I think in this case the show should not go on.
I think the Good Lord, in all his wisdom, never meant a huge and highly intelligent sea predator that has been held in captivity for 30 years in amich too small basin and a human to swim side by side or do little circus stunts. Pony tails or no pny tails. I'm not PETA, I eat meat, even whale meat (in Iceland where even Greenpeace can't argue that the indigenous whales are threatened), but captured orcas in amusement parks have no business being there nor do humans have business hanging ariund them. Like Spanish bullfighting, this does serve any remotrly justifiable purpose. Open the gates for this killer whale and all the others and let nature take its course.
It's not fair to the whale to let it loose.
What kind of whale? KILLER!
21,000 pounds of DEATH!
To quote Sting:
"Free, free~ Set them free"
"The show must go on" ~Greedy bastids
It sound like something my dog would do.
At least they are not killing the whale. When you put daqngerous animals like adult Killer Whales, tigers, bears & chimps interacting with trained proffesionals your're going to get casualities, how can anyone not expect that?
They are still wild animals, not trained poodles.
I really feel sorry for all the little kids that witnessed it, holding thier Shamu steefed animals & wearing shamu tee shirts.
I don't think Orca realizes humans can't hold their breath for 5 minutes.
Or maybe he was having a bad day.
I'm pretty sure more whales have been killed by humans than humans killed by whales. Quoting Wikipedia:
Between 1954 and 1997, Japan took 1,178 killer whales and Norway took 987. Over 3,000 killer whales were taken by Soviet whalers, including an Antarctic catch of 906 in 1979 and 1980 alone, prompting the International Whaling Commission to recommend a ban on commercial hunting of the species pending further research.
not a fan of zoos, aquariums or anyplace that takes animals out of their natural habitat for human amusement. :P
I think this whale's kill record has been somewhat exaggerated. The second kill was a mentally unstable guy who trespassed, jumped in the tank naked and then died of exposure. The whale was swimming around with the guy draped over its schnozz. Hardly a kill, but more like playing with its new big human toy. Overall this is a big playful cute killer whale that just wants to play.
Me, I like zoos. I like Sea World. Animals in captivity are un-natural, but lots of things aren't, like Twinkies. The deficient thinking part of this lies in the now-dead "trainer." The news reports indicated she was very experienced and had been working with these creatures for 16 years. I would say that the training curve estimate lies now beyond 17 years. I think this is a tragedy, but when you work around things that can kill you, like killer whales and kitchen remodel job sites, sh!t happens. Safety is job #1, and you always have to be careful. She sadly wasn't.
I think that the other handlers there may be very uneasy about doing a show with that one now. Letting it go may be just as dangerous. It has been eating fish out of people's hands for years. It may think that people at a beach in Florida are fun toys and the only way to have lunch. Not good.
Quote from: the mojo hobo on February 28, 2010, 09:18:30 AM
I'm pretty sure more whales have been killed by humans than humans killed by whales. Quoting Wikipedia:
Between 1954 and 1997, Japan took 1,178 killer whales and Norway took 987. Over 3,000 killer whales were taken by Soviet whalers, including an Antarctic catch of 906 in 1979 and 1980 alone, prompting the International Whaling Commission to recommend a ban on commercial hunting of the species pending further research.
I am also very much against whaling as well as being against all the SeaWorld nonsense.
Whaling or not, killer whales were never ever on the brink of extinction. They are just giant dolphins and those are a more stable population than, say, tuna. It never made much sense hunting orcas either, they are predators and don't taste well, they have little blubber! You can't make perfume from them and they are difficult to hunt.
I know that whale who didn't like pigtails wouldn't stand a chance in the open sea after three decades of behavior-deforming captivity, but at leat he would get to swim out in the open before being killed by other orcas or starving to death.
It's a testament to their temperment and intelligence that even the idea of having humans in close contact is possible. We're the same general size, and in wetsuits, the same coloration and silhouette as one of their major food items, seals. Killer whales kill great white sharks just for the hell of it. My guess is the whale was irritated with his situation and was trying to express his displeasure but never meant to kill her. If he had, there would only have been pieces of wetsuit left.
I know he put up with being confined to a space barely liveable for him much better than I would. He may actually be capable of surviving in the wild, and a tracked release would have scientific merit. We know very little about killer whales and their migration and navigation. Even if he was killed by his own kind, he would die free. I'd say the odds are 50/50 for his survival in the wild.
Quote from: JimB52 on February 28, 2010, 05:57:43 AM
I don't think Orca realizes humans can't hold their breath for 5 minutes.
Or maybe he was having a bad day.
My wife watches these kinds of shows a lot. The whale was probably just playing with the trainer. The trainer wasn't bitten in an attack, but grabbed by the pony tail. The Orca has no comprehension of how frail a human is to their size and weight.
They have tried to rehabilitate "captive" orca's, but it has not been successful - the most notable failure being Keiko, of "Free Willy" fame...
http://www.keiko.com/ (http://www.keiko.com/)
It is not only whales that are "hunted" ... this video is NOT for kids...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU640t7VjK8
Colours to the mast - what difference does it make... it's only an animal...
Quote from: Kenny Five-O on February 28, 2010, 06:06:55 PM
They have tried to rehabilitate "captive" orca's, but it has not been successful - the most notable failure being Keiko, of "Free Willy" fame...
I think they pretty well implied that he died of pneumonia as a complication of old age, and he was thriving in the wild before that. I wouldn't label that a failure.
nice gorefest you posted, kenny. : :rolleyes:
please explain your comment "it's only an animal".
Quote from: nofi on February 28, 2010, 06:59:53 PM
please explain your comment "it's only an animal".
They're still making 'em
In regards being 'only animals,' so are we.
Quote from: nofi on February 28, 2010, 06:59:53 PM
nice gorefest you posted, kenny. : :rolleyes:
please explain your comment "it's only an animal".
Sacrcasm?
Food for thought: Why Would a Trained Orca Kill a Human? (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=killer-whale)
Quote from: Kenny Five-O on February 28, 2010, 06:06:55 PM
They have tried to rehabilitate "captive" orca's, but it has not been successful - the most notable failure being Keiko, of "Free Willy" fame...
http://www.keiko.com/ (http://www.keiko.com/)
It is not only whales that are "hunted" ... this video is NOT for kids...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU640t7VjK8
Colours to the mast - what difference does it make... it's only an animal...
I googled some stuff to try to get more info on that. Judging from the comments at the end of an article I read, the Faroese don't like people criticizing them for doing this. In fact, they are quite defensive about it. I am just basing this on comments I read from one article and I'm just referring to the part of the video dealing with the Faroese Islands. They're not doing it for food, though. Evidently, this goes back to a 10th century ritual and if you don't like it you are insulting Faroese culture. At least that is what I gathered from reading all the comments. I'd be interested in knowing what the Danes themselves think about it, especially since one of my favorite authors is Danish. My opinion of the ritual, though, is that I think it is totally pointless, cruel, and unconscionable.
I am not a perfect being by any means, which is why I don't try to get on the "soap box" and fling mud... well... not often... ;)
John... apologies, I guess... Sarcasm in it's worst form - fully loaded and barbed... I prefer to use it in the higher form...
As a "veggie" I am often the first to point out by not being "vegan" I am still supporting the "meat" industry (where do eggs/cheese etc come from?) but the reference to "it's only an animal" came from a "Vegetarian Society" promotional leaflet, stating something like...
... "It seems you can do anything to an animal, as long as you eat it afterwards..."
Our Government banned hunting with dogs, but the Law Authorities have declared it "un-policeable", so it goes on... I fully approve of hunting for food, but not for the kill...
I am very much into freedom to do what you want to, but needless cruelty, in the name of "tradition" shows how truly barbarous we are, just beneath the skin... I truly believe we can only be viewed by how we treat the environment we live in, and those that live with us, be they sentient or otherwise, and only a fool would believe that other "animals" around us are not aware of their surroundings... We have just "deadened" our senses...
PBG... the reality was that Keiko was (apparently) never able to re-integrate himself into orca "society" - was unable to find a "pod" to adopt him, was unable to fend for himself properly, significantly lost weight, fell I'll, and died... Yes, he was not a youngster, had led a pampered, albeit captive, life, but... I agree with you, we are only animals, too...
"Food For Thought..." good post, Dave...
Rant over...
Keiko was a well-meant waste of time born of guilt not of anything sensible in conservationist terms. Even before he fell ill, he still prefered the company of humans to orcas. What they should have done is put him into an iIelandic Seaworld with access to the sea so he could leave and return (for food and company) like a cat leaves and returns to the house. Except that Icelanders wouldn't pay money to see an orca.
That slaughter in a Faroese bay is hard to watch - especially the pregnant cow and her baby - and I generally don't have issues with seeing an animal killed I eat (no, I'm not Ted Nugent). I understand that it is an age-old, non-commercial tradition (they don't sell the meat, but share it for free in their community) and that it is only once a year and that it has no ill effect whatsoever on the dolphin population there and that it served a good purpose once, namely to provide meat in a largely meat-less area. It's even a form of ritual "harvest" like my uncle does with his fenced in deer of which he shoots/"harvests" a number once a year. And that spinal cut they apply to the dolphins is probably quick and mercyful once they have them dragged on the shore (never mind the panic the animals must feel, most livestock would be inedible after having gone through that).
Still, it looks horrible and needlessly mean and you wonder if it would be the end of their culture if - now that they can import meat and are heavily subsidized by Denmark - they restricted their bloodbath to just a few or herded them together just for show and let them go free again in a symbolic act.
Hard to loose the "symbolic act" from traditions... to me, it is the level of inteligence these animals show, and the needlessness of it all... all in the name of tradition... and the way they hide it, the way they try to stop the filming... what have they got to hide...?
Quote from: Kenny Five-O on March 03, 2010, 03:10:20 AM
PBG... the reality was that Keiko was (apparently) never able to re-integrate himself into orca "society" - was unable to find a "pod" to adopt him, was unable to fend for himself properly, significantly lost weight, fell I'll, and died... Yes, he was not a youngster, had led a pampered, albeit captive, life, but...
I don't know. The other day, the
Today show had the PR guy for Seaworld cite Keiko as an example of a failed release, not exactly an unbiased source, so I did some more digging. Turns out that Keiko's lifespan may have been average or it may not have; there's not enough data on males. Females in the wild can live to 80, but males seem to die around 30. As for being reintegrated into a pod, that was Keiko's choice; he stayed around humans as much as possible, probably because he had imprinted on them as a youngster. The whale in question currently was captured as an adult, so this wouldn't be as much of an issue. Keiko's life in captivity before his release preparations had also previously been far from pampered; it was his living conditions in Mexico which helped to fuel the petition for his release. I still say we should let him go.
To say that this particular orca, Tilikum, has killed 3 people not entirely accurate.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/tilikum-known-as-dangerous-whale-at-seaworld-orlando-281841.html
From the article:
"In 1991, Tilikum and two female killer whales dragged trainer Keltie Byrne underwater, drowning her in front of spectators at Sealand of the Pacific, a defunct aquarium in Victoria, British Columbia.
Acquired by SeaWorld the next year to breed with female orcas, he was involved in a second incident in July 1999 when the naked body of a man who had apparently sneaked into SeaWorld after hours to swim with the whales was found draped dead across his back.
Authorities later concluded that the man, Daniel Dukes, likely suffered hypothermia in the 55-degree water and drowned, but they said it also appeared Tilikum bit the man's body and tore off his swimming trunks after he had died."
I intensely dislike the idea of whale hunting, as well as any slaughter of animals where very little of the animal is used for anything productive. Killing bears for their claws, or tigers for their spleen for it's "aphrodisiac" qualities are to me, crimes against nature. Those cultures which use up nearly all of the kill for food, clothes, etc are in my opinion the only ones which should be allowed to kill such things as whales.
As far as human interaction with whales, humans and whales were never really meant to coexist as closely as they do in Sea World and something as big as a whale, heck even something domesticated like a horse, can harm or kill you and they barely realize it. It's my opinion that if a person chooses to involve himself with animals, especially wild ones, any consequences should be born exclusively by that person.
Quote from: Psycho Bass Guy on February 28, 2010, 07:40:28 PM
In regards being 'only animals,' so are we.
Agreed. Therefore why should we mourn the loss of a woman who has chosen to spend her life working with 12,000 sea mammals? She died doing something she loved.
I'd say we mourn her loss as we mourn the loss of any, and allow it to put an end to the commercial exploitation of orcas as performing animals.
That would be nice. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen anytime soon.
Quote from: Psycho Bass Guy on March 03, 2010, 07:07:04 PM
I'd say we mourn her loss as we mourn the loss of any, and allow it to put an end to the commercial exploitation of orcas as performing animals.
Okay, agreed. Those animals which can't be released should simply get a good home.
I didn't watch the Oscars--never do--but it appears that a movie called "The Cove" has won an Oscar. It's a about a village in Japan that tricks thousands of dolphins to go into a cove so they can be slaughtered. The mayor of the village where this occurs assures everyone this is okay, though, because it's a tradition. Plus, he said other countries kill cows to eat and stuff like that. So everything is cool.
http://www.seattlepi.com/tvguide/416356_tvgif8.html
I heard an interview with the filmaker and Ric O'Berry last year and a lot of it was pretty shocking. Personally, I don't agree at all with the mayor's statement equating the slaughter of cows bred for the purpose of consumption and the slaughter of thousands of wild animals because of "tradition".
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111340010
'Cove' Director Surfaces Deep (And Dark) Secrets
Filmmaker Louie Psihoyos discusses his new documentary The Cove, a shocking and moving account of dolphin abuse off the coast of Taijii, Japan.
Psihoyos and his team painstakingly documented a thriving operation that captures dolphins, the healthiest and handsomest of which are sold to aquariums worldwide.
The rest are slaughtered, often ending up as food for human consumption, despite high mercury levels.
Going into the village of Taijii, Psihoyos tells Fresh Air, is "like walking into a Stephen King novel." There's lots of visible marketing — statues, murals— proclaiming the town's love of dolphins. "The whole town was built around loving dolphins and whales."
"And then in the middle of town," Psihoyos says, "is this national park that even Japanese people can't go in. Big tall fences, steel spikes on the gates, razor ribbon, barbed wire, a series of tunnels to get through on one side to get there — it was like a fortress. And Ric said, 'That's where this all happens' — in this national park.' "
"Ric" is Ric O'Barry — a former dolphin trainer responsible for teaching the dolphins of TV's Flipper their tricks. He has devoted years to rescuing the intelligent mammals he once helped capture.
"I get more upset with the dolphin trainers I see there than the fishermen," O'Barry tells Terry Gross. Japanese fishermen, he explains, think of dolphins as being in the same category as fish — not least, O'Barry says, because the Japanese character for "whale" translates literally into "monster fish."
"But the dolphin trainers, who are there working side by side with them, look [the dolphins] in the eye every day," O'Barry says. "They give them names. They spend time with them. They know they're self-aware."
To capture the horrors of the cove on film, Psihoyos recruited an Ocean's Eleven-style team: divers, special-effects artists and sound specialists. They used state-of-the-art equipment to infiltrate the remote cove and film the dolphin slaughter.
An experienced dive photographer, Psihoyos spent nearly two decades on the staff of National Geographic magazine.
That's some really interesting info you have there. Let's just hope that the movie might help some, although I doubt it. For that to happen, they'd have to be under continuous pressure.
The statement which really caught my ears was this one: "And then in the middle of town," Psihoyos says, "is this national park that even Japanese people can't go in. Big tall fences, steel spikes on the gates, razor ribbon, barbed wire, a series of tunnels to get through on one side to get there — it was like a fortress. And Ric said, 'That's where this all happens' — in this national park.' "
If the mayor and town are so up front about the annual dolphin slaughter being so legal, legitimate and traditional, why do they hide it behind barbed wire?
It does give a whole new meaning to the term National Park, doesn't it? Kind of 1984ish ... mass slaughtering dolphins is protecting them.
Quote from: uwe on March 09, 2010, 01:17:03 PM
It does give a whole new meaning to the term National Park, doesn't it? Kind of 1984ish ... mass slaughtering dolphins is protecting them.
It does seem like Orwellian doublespeak, accepting two contradictory beliefs--killing dolphins protects them.
Update to an old topic. I just saw some more about this on TV. It looks like Sea World's legal troubles are just beginning.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20014463-504083.html
It's never a wise thing to hug a predator 10 times your size. It's like keeping a German Shepherd and a guinea pig together and believing that nothing will EVER happen. What guinea pig?!
Quote from: uwe on August 27, 2010, 11:32:25 AM
It's never a wise thing to hug a predator 10 times your size. It's like keeping a German Shepherd and a guinea pig together and believing that nothing will EVER happen. What guinea pig?!
See also, what wine goes with rodents...