As I write I have Martin Turner three feet before me on stage, white Tbird and all, at a tiny club near Frankfurt, playing all of Argus with Martin Turner's Wishbone Ash! Upfront in the mix with an Ashdown/Hartke bi-amping rig with 15 and 2x12 cabs, emulating a docile Ric sound and spoiling me with his melodic runs ... Am I lucky or what? These days he looks a bit like a mix between Martin Sheen and John Kerry, graciously aged and his voice fine ...
Martin is the reason I play Thunderbirds (or the closest thing to them). I'm green with envy. No Hamer this time out? :mrgreen:
Naw, just his old Bird, refinned white, I don't even see a spare ...
I'd love to have been there Uwe.
Wow!
By contrast I'm at work moving some light fixtures around the showroom to the tune of "It's raining in my heart" from our usually decent muzak program.............Makes me wish I had some knitting needles to put in my eardrums to ease the torture :rolleyes:
Lucky you.I hope they make it to Chicago sometime.I saw the original lineup in the seventies then in the early eighties with Trevor Bolder on bass. Just like gweimer he is the reason I'm a Bird lover.
Never seen him play anything but... not seen in over 20 and never saw the TT line-up...
Definitely the best I saw was in a steaming hot Marquee Club in 1977...
Anyway, shame on you for not concentrating on the show... ;)
I saw them pretty close up on the Argus tour, with Flash opening. They were great. It was the first time I ever saw someone play slide guitar sideways. Ted Turner put his Strat on what looked like an ironing board to play slide on it.
Quote from: gweimer on May 05, 2009, 07:17:50 PM
I saw them pretty close up on the Argus tour, with Flash opening. They were great. It was the first time I ever saw someone play slide guitar sideways. Ted Turner put his Strat on what looked like an ironing board to play slide on it.
I believe that is a show from the same tour that I saw.Was that in Chicago?
i saw them in wellington new zealand in 1974 at the st james theatre.they were great and i really liked the bass sound.
Martin Turner must have had a bad night: Imagine him playing his ass off, bi-amping his great old Thunderbird knowing he has influenced a lot of guys. And right in front of him is a German lawyer not listening, not paying attention but busy texting some forum with his mobile phone....
I had prepared the text during the break between two sets and sent it when he reappeared for the playing of the whole of Argus ... :P That said, I'm sure he wondered about the guy in a suit in the front row staring at his (almost albino-white, he seems to have a pigmentation disfunction on both his arms) hands and his bass most of the time! ;D
A few murky/blurry/shaky shots with my Blackberry, I'm such a lousy photographer:
The rig before the gig, notice the EQ setting of the Hartke, not much bass and zilch treble and presence, that comes from the Ashdown:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/IMG00055-20090505-2312.jpg)
Herr Turner:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/IMG00049-20090505-2220.jpg)
Herr Turner and the new guitarist (group Benjamin and still a little hesitant "phew, glad I got that right!"):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/IMG00046-20090505-2210.jpg)
Working the tool (a formerly sunburst sixties TB with a new headstock and partial neck grafted onto the remaining neck at pretty much the low G, you can see the hairline through the refin):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/IMG00053-20090505-2250.jpg)
Yes, Scott, it's a Badass II - THAT PROVES NOTHING, even icons are led astray sometimes!!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/IMG00058-20090505-2314.jpg)
The rig after the gig:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/IMG00055-20090505-2312.jpg)
Few observations:
- Except when singing, MT is a horizontal, not a vertical fretboard player, i.e. he moves from fret to fret, jumping quite a bit, when he plays those melodies of his, rather than staying in one position and moving from string to string. Most of his playing is either around the first five frets or 12 and higher, though he largely stays outside of the region where a TBird becomes uncomfortable, I only saw him play a note at the 19th fret once.
- He rests his pinky mostly underneath or on the lower edge of the treble pup and picks in the space between the two pups.
- He is not always that accurate! :mrgreen: To be fair, I was so close I could see and hear every little glitch.
- He plays a lot of octaves, power chords (on two or three strings) and open strings (downtunes E string to D often from song to song - someone give the man a Hipshot D-tuner!) and likes to hammer with his fist on the upper horn of the TB to let the E (or downtuned D as the case may be) ring on his bass.
- His playing is hardly ever in eights, mostly fours or less, straight or syncopated (which he does a lot), eights really only come into play when he plays his little melodies, but I did not once in the whole concert see him "throb" eights on a root note except during Living Proof.
Overall his bass playing is Chris Squire'rish upfront with a bony sound, but not as agressive and he was very loud in the mix though he plays with a lot of dynamics. He "stalks" through the music, rather than laying a foundation. A lot of melody bits which I used to think were played (overdubbed) by a guitar, are actually him playing up high with the E string ringing empty to keep the foundation. It works well.
So how do the two currently existing "Wishbone Ashes" compare? Even where the current bass player in the "other Wishbone Ash" (headed by Flying V-man Andy Powell, who is in legal strife with MT for all kinds of things) plays those Martin Turner riffs note-perfect (like the bass melody middle part in "Time Was"), it doesn't sound as upfront and "there" as Martin (even though Andy Powell's bass player - a five string Stingray finger player - has probably greater dexterity than Martin, he very much remains a backing bassist in his groove and attack). Similarly, the two guitarists MT has with him are good and replicate the twin harmony sound well, but don't have the edge Andy Powell and his current (very good) Norwegian sidekick has in the other Ash nor are they Ted Turner or Laurie Wisefield (technically the best and most versatile guitarist Ash ever had, it is no surprise that he is now making a good living as a session muso on Nokia Night of the Proms events or as the first choice guitarist in the Queen musical show in London's Westend). MT's drummer is very smooth and laid back, quite Steve Upton'ish, Andy Powell's drummer (barely a twen), in contrast, gives the music more of a kick up the butt. When Martin introduced his drummer to the audience, the latter lazily stroked his cymbals and toms a bit which had Martin cry out: "That wasn't even a drum solo ... you sound like Ginger ... Ginger Rodgers!" Martin's voice is still flexible and youthful, Andy Powell's vocals (who has adopted the lead singer role in the other Ash) strains in comparison when performing songs Martin originally sang, he's quite comfortable with the newer stuff though.
In any case, I was beaming thoughout the gig! And couldn't help find how much his playing is similar to mine though I never really analyzed his bass playing (or witness it) like I did last night.
Quote from: MikeyB5 on May 05, 2009, 08:49:07 PM
I believe that is a show from the same tour that I saw.Was that in Chicago?
Auditorium Theater, as I recall. I miss Chicago.
I got to see Wishbone Ash live around 72 or 73. Uwe I am so thrilled for you ! To be that close ! Did you get talk with him at all ?? Ah great minds think a like ! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/godofthunder59/butcherbirddone002.jpg)
Ahh Scott, the best bridge of all time, a Badass 1.
Kudos mate :toast:
/me awaits Uwe's beratement.
Uwe, a very informative and interesting apraisal of Herr Turners performance. Thankyou.
"Did you get talk with him at all ??"
He was available for a meet and greet after the concert at the merchandise stall and did show up. I thought for a moment about meeting him there, but then couldn't really think of anything meaningful to say or ask except the obvious like "You've influenced me quite a bit.", "Great show.", "Will there be a reunion?" and "Why don't you record an album with new songs?" so I left it at that. He was very affable to the people he spoke to though.
Hey, I'm just too shy! :-[
Quote from: uwe on May 07, 2009, 04:59:43 AM
Hey, I'm just too shy! :-[
So I take it you don't do litigation? ;D I always pictured you stalking the courtroom, pouncing on unsuspecting witnesses like a Teutonic Perry Mason!
I watched Herr Turner in a private, not a professional capacity. Professionally, I'm generally not at a loss of words, but in private? Hey, I spent 3 years at highschool not telling a girl she meant the world to me. Another 18 years to 'fess up to her what she meant to me back then and yet another ten years that she still means it to me!
One thing I believe in Uwe, is making things right, even if it takes years to get it done. Once you do, thing have a way of working out for the better. I hope you find continued success in that regard!
(with apollogies to the movie "Goodbye Mr Chips" and anyones feelings...)
"... But I have a big family, all of them Gibsons..." ;)
Sorry if this has been discussed before but I found some pics which left me wondering. I recall reading that the "Argus" inner sleeve photo Thunderbird (sunburst) was stolen at that time (1972) and Martin got another from Overend and this bass was later painted white. The "Argus" 'bird has three knobs and a black headstock, right? This photo is supposed to be taken in 1974:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3640/3683939051_3608b38e44.jpg)
Is it the same bass? Or a possible loan from a , say, Walter Becker or that Doobie Brothers bassist since the Ash are playing the Midnight Special at that clip?:)
This is the 'bird he is still using, right?
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2631/3690227148_1d04b73462.jpg)
PS. I still do not buy that he used a Ric on "Argus", unless he was so visionary that he bypassed the infamous cap (which his Ric still had when they recorded the previous album, just listen to "Vas Dis" for example...;) )
If anyone says "cleaning lady", I'll fuggin' freak out! And that's a fact!
The white bass used to be sunburst and unbroken. I always believed that Overend Watts broke it and Martin bought it broken from him (and there are interviews of Martin out there that create that impression), but it has now transpired in a very recent interview in a German bass mag that Martin broke it himself while throwing it up in the air and hitting something (the wall of amps) with it after an especially rejoiceful gig. Mind you, all this while the bass was still on loan from Overend and unpaid!
So Martin actually has the nerve to approach Overend complaining that Overend had loaned him a "not very stable bass" and offers him a symbolic price which the flabbergasted Overend (who himself had accidentally broken quite a few Birds) accepts. Martin picks up the pieces (literally) and has his luthier repair the bass with a replacement maple neck from the fifth fret onwards (he still has the original maho splinters neck and headstock atomized to and keeps them glued together at home), eventually the bass is painted white too.
Martin's Hamer Explorer with original sixties TB pups has been put out of service btw for the mere reason of its truss rod no longer working. He has sold it to some memorabilia hunting rock club.
Re his Ric 4001 he said he liked its sound very much but that its very thin neck was always a calamity and that it eventually broke in its case when transported on a tour.
I hear nothing on Argus that sounds like it could not have been played with a Ric, so I guess we have to accept Martin's word on it that he only used the Ric on it. Later albums with the Wisefield line-up were entirely recorded with a P Bass and Martin still sounds like Martin on those. His sound is largely influenced by his pick playing and the fact that he is a horizontal player (moving up and down the neck swiftly) as opposed to a vertical one (changing from string to string often, but staying pretty much in one or two registers).
Quote from: uwe on July 19, 2010, 11:47:27 AM
The white bass used to be sunburst and unbroken. I always believed that Overend Watts broke it and Martin bought it broken from him (and there are interviews of Martin out there that create that impression), but it has now transpired in a very recent interview in a German bass mag that Martin broke it himself while throwing it up in the air and hitting something (the wall of amps) with it after an especially rejoiceful gig. Mind you, all this while the bass was still on loan from Overend and unpaid!
So Martin actually has the nerve to approach Overend complaining that Overend had loaned him a "not very stable bass" and offers him a symbolic price which the flabbergasted Overend (who himself had accidentally broken quite a few Birds) accepts. Martin picks up the pieces (literally) and has his luthier repair the bass with a replacement maple neck from the fifth fret onwards (he still has the original maho splinters neck and headstock atomized to and keeps them glued together at home), eventually the bass is painted white too.
So which one of the above it is then? The one with the white inner in the headstock and 4 knobs (the photo is from 1973 from this set: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mtwa/sets/72157619187354946/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mtwa/sets/72157619187354946/)) or the other with the all-black headstock?
The headstock with the white inner is the maple replacement piece his luthier made. The extra knob came and went - today the white TB has a hole plugged where that knob was.
As regards the kimono pic, judging from his haircut that is later than 1974 and well into the Wisefield line-up. He might be playing an Orville there - I know he has one as a replacement for his white Bird -, it's hard to tell from the headstock lettering. That TBird looks new and pristine.
Quote from: uwe on July 19, 2010, 12:44:35 PM
As regards the kimono pic, judging from his haircut that is later than 1974 and well into the Wisefield line-up. He might be playing an Orville there - I know he has one as a replacement for his white Bird -, it's hard to tell from the headstock lettering. That TBird looks new and pristine.
No, it's still with Ted on guitar:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2562/3683941697_607e516d22.jpg)
The whole lot:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mtwa/sets/72157620765079035/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mtwa/sets/72157620765079035/)
This set also has that 'bird. Did Orvilles exist then('74 - '75)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mtwa/sets/72157620990579715/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mtwa/sets/72157620990579715/)
Nice Pictures! I remember reading an article on the recording of There's the rub. I was surprised to find out that he used a P bass on that album. It sure had me fooled. I saw them in New Orleans back in 1975, Martin's bass sound was awesome!! I also remember that Camel opened for them.
Cheers,
Jim
The Marquee Club used to hold 400 people - in 1977 someone sneaked the back doors open and an extra 300 crammed in... it was summer... it was melting down time, literally... condensation was dripping off the (low) roof... never has a pint of (diluted) lager tasted so good... brilliant gig...
Quote from: uwe on July 19, 2010, 11:47:27 AM
The white bass used to be sunburst and unbroken. I always believed that Overend Watts broke it and Martin bought it broken from him (and there are interviews of Martin out there that create that impression), but it has now transpired in a very recent interview in a German bass mag that Martin broke it himself while throwing it up in the air and hitting something (the wall of amps) with it after an especially rejoiceful gig. Mind you, all this while the bass was still on loan from Overend and unpaid!
That's not quite what he told us when we interviewed him for Fly Guitars... he got it in 13 pieces (see Martin turner on his Thunderbirds (http://www.flyguitars.com/interviews/martinturner2.php))
Perhaps he re-broke it. Let's face it, rock stars are not known for their perfect memories!
Quote from: uwe on July 19, 2010, 12:44:35 PM
As regards the kimono pic, judging from his haircut that is later than 1974 and well into the Wisefield line-up. He might be playing an Orville there
I know he bought his Orville on ebay - although I don't know what year...
It's not the story I heard from him all theses years either! It was always "Overend gave me this broken bass he didn't care for." That sounds somehow nicer than "I loaned a perfectly fine TBird from Overend, wrecked it and then talked him into selling me the debris for cheap." Maybe, with advancing age, Martin wants to come clean!
Mart for sure used his reverse 60's IV on Argus. On the first album, it sounds like a Rick on some songs and a P-Bass on others. Period pictures typically show him live with a P-Bass before he started to use the T-Bird both live and in the studio. My guess is that he used a Rick to get a 'different' sound before he discovered that the 'Bird was the perfect bass for what they were doing and his style of playing.
Saw them many times in the 70's...big influence on me too. Great player and singer! The last reunion gig they did in the 90's was classic old Ash... the original lineup. Ted Turner was especially inspired. One of the best bands in rock history!!!! Through those killer early Orange amps, his 'Bird was tone perfection.
Best T-Bird sound ever IMO until maybe the first Cheap Trick album. KILLER classic 60's 'Bird tone as well through Hiwatts. Great memories of a great era.