"I still believe nothing tells people you are serious about bass like pulling out a Fender. Over the years I experienced quite a bias against my Gibsons."
I stole this quote from Scott's "buying the daughter a new (Jazz) bass" thread. It made me wonder: Is that a collective experience here with Gibson basses?
My own experience is that (mostly Fender playing) bassists bad-mouthed Gibsons in the seventies (in a mix of traits of various Gibson basses, all Gibson basses were regarded as "muddy, weighing a ton, strange-looking (= non-Fenderish) and neck-heavy"), forgot all about them in the eighties and are these days startled they even still exist! Guitarists, otoh, marvel at the many different types there are and appreciate the "being different"-aspect of playing a Gibson bass. And of course Gibson is to them at least a respectable, often desirable (guitar) brand, so you have a bonus there.
Back in the 70's when I was starting out it seemed that no matter what Gibson you pulled out the perception of them was that they were muddy sounding. Guitarists being the control freaks they are always seemed to want a guy with a Fender. I was told on numerous occasions that I lost the gig to the other guy because he had a Fender. I don't think this hold quite so true today but back then Fender ruled the roost.
My reaction'll follow later.
When I saw Still Believe I thought about the Herman Brood song. My favourite. It's written by Bertus Borgers who plays sax and does backing vocs on this song. He also played and plays with the Golden Earring and he had some fame with his own band Sweet d'Buster.
Here's a live vid of Herman doing Still Believe in 1979.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNBeAI-oeI8
Bass player Freddie Cavalli is one of my all time heroes. He died last year and that sucks. He almost always played Fender Jazzes, his Hamer Explorer was for sale a while ago, but for an awful lot of money.
In this vid, near the end Cavalli plays a G3 or Grabber. I can't see which one for obvious reasons: (Uwe: It's a fretless, stupid! But Saturday Night is a kick-ass song.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPPaF6yLAGE
In my experience, people have been visually impressed with the various Gibsons I've pulled out at auditions or initial rehearsals. The remarks were usually along the lines of, "Wow, I've never seen one of those in person before". That being said, as soon as I play one song on my P, that's the sound they rave over. I choose a particular bass the same way I decide between pick and fingers; the mood and feel of the song point me in the right direction and I go from there. Sometimes it's even one P (or Gibson) over another. I know 99% of people hearing the song will never recognize the difference, but I will.
I have to agree that most people go straight for the Precision. It's what they've been trained to want. That could be changing with the younger set, but as an old guy (in musician terms anyway), that's what I've experienced. That being said, it doesn't mean you can't educate your guitard accordingly.
I have always been in bands with friends or people I knew, so it was never an issue. A long time ago I did have one guitarist demand I play with a pick (I refused). I use one now all the time.
Ok, that's a given. A P sound is never gonna sound wrong in most settings. But I've received compliments for TBird and even mudbuck sounds too.
The funny thing is you could pull out a mahogany Precision and a maple/alder bird (or Ripper or whatever Gibson) and they'd still prefer the sound of the P...
I totally agree with the posts above. A Fender always looks good and sounds good. I bet all amp makers have a P or a J to test the amp and a muddy bass like an EB3 doesn't sound good on every amp, while a Fender-ish bass does.
I think a lot of people like Gibsons but they don't buy 'm. In Holland strange things are bad immediately. That changes a bit, isn't it, Rob? I used to be the only one bidding on things like Burns and strange Gibsons in Holland, but nowadays everybody does. Rob and I did a good job at the Duch forums, pronmoting Gibson;) There's even a Sixx II around no!
My T-Bird gets a lot of attention. People walking to the front to see if it's a real Gibson.
I think it depends on the type of music. For Alternative, Indie rock you have people like Cheryl Crow & Justin Meldan Johnson who helped make vintage stuff cool again.
I think jazz is the most jaded on Gibsons for being serious.
By the mid 80's I would have to say my playing had progressed to a point where it didn't matter as much what bass I played. Also I had found my own voice with the non reverse Thunderbirds and Marshalls, a odd combination stateside but once I plugged in the critics were quiet.....................for the most part. As a side note I was always able to get a nice cutting sound from a EB3, never muddy when I use one, I love the minibucker !
"I still believe nothing tells people you are serious about bass like pulling out a Fender. Over the years I experienced quite a bias against my Gibsons."
I've never found that to be the case. I don't know anyone who thinks pulling out a Fender means you're serious. Or any bass for that matter. Sure, plenty of old pros play Fenders, but so do rank beginners and everyone in between.
Fender guys have been pooh-poohing Gibson basses forever. You know the old saying "Penis envy is the sincerest form of flattery." I remember back in '79 or so, a local P-Bass player came to a rehearsal and kept shaking his head, looking at the Thunderbird. He came up to me afterward and asked how I got "that sound" out of my Ampegs. "But Mike", sez I - "you have the same rig! It's the Thunderbird sound that you REALLY want". He walked away muttering "no, no, no".
Nothing wrong with a Fender, or variant thereof - I play mine plenty - but a P or J will never be a TB or EB.
i always assumed that if an amp rig didnt like the mudbucker sound and could handle a fender sound it was probably rubbish.nothing wrong with having unrolled off bass frequencies as part of your pickup design.plus the fundamentals can pleasantly massage your internal organs when you stand near the cab.i have had people ask me why i want such a retro bass(the eb4l),untill they hear it.
I just never got on with F*nd*r's, I noted elsewhere that they feel just l"ike a lump of wood", a mass-produced instrument with a bolt on neck because it is cheaper to produce and purchase, compared to a Gibson... I have heard dozens of players that have got some exquisite sounds out of them, but it is not a path I wish to tread...
Yeah, I was "conned" (the case) re my RD, but he was right, it is "the difference between a Ford and a Roller"...
My last band was a blues band (I didn't really want to do the blues, but a buddy of mine was in a jam and needed a bass player), and we showed up to do a gig at a mostly county festival. Once I pulled the zebrabird out of its case all these old crusty country dudes came over and stared at it, muttering things like, "That's a damn fine instrument."
The, "sound guy," explained to me that he was a bass player, and he was mostly turned off by it claiming that anything my bird could do, his jazz could do and better. Of course, he couldn't mix or manage the PA very well...
As much as I like Fender, there is something about Gibson that I just love.
While Fender was alright produce essentially the same two basses for many years due to their success, Gibson created so many wonderfully different instruments. They HAD to keep changing things up, pickups, body shapes, electronics, etc. You get all these different basses over several years, just trying to stay in the bass market. I'll take an RD or any Gibson bass for that matter (if they made a lefty models more available...) over a Jazz bass any day.
I just wish they would come out with more basses, and in more colors, instead of doing this whole digital robot guitar thing. An SG Bass and Thunderbird? You know you have a whole stable of designs waiting to be put into production Gibson...I don't want an "SG" bass, I want an EB!
At least Epiphone is updating the Bird a bit. Wish they'd do the same with their EB0/3.
Quote from: Ken S on March 11, 2009, 06:44:23 PM
I just never got on with F*nd*r's, I noted elsewhere that they feel just l"ike a lump of wood"
This is me too. When I started on bass it seemed like a lot of guys I liked to listen to played Fender basses so I assumed that was what I wanted. Its always sounded like plunky, noodley junk to my ears. Cleary the case is more that my hands don't make the sounds my ears like with a Fender.
In this day and age of many more choices for bass players; the boutiques, the custom shops, every brand and preamp type, more aftermarket pickups, etc., etc., I think that Fender=bass equation doesn't hold very much with younger players.
When I really started to like music it seemed like most of my bass heroes played Gibsons, so no affinity Fender for me there. By the time I graduated H.S. in '76 I loved RUSH so my first good bass was a black 4001 Rick that I kept for 30 years, as time went on I tried several Fenders, a P and 2 J's but the magic just wasn't there for me, but I'd never suggest they aren't a nice instrument that's left an undeniable mark on modern music.
Not having A Fender never cost me a band job, ever. If anything here in Seattle the local music scene has always been a bit different even when it comes to instruments, so playing a Rick and later my first 'Bird never hurt my cause.
I've always seen it as the path less travelled.............. :)
I like the sound of a P bass, but they look a little generic to me at this point. Never liked the looks or feel of a J bass body but they can sound nice.
In my first "real" band I had a 64 P bass and a 76 T-bird. The guitarist loved the T-bird and wanted me to use it for most of the songs. I've never run into any prejudice to my bass choices in bands, but I've been given a rash of shit from other bassists.
I have to agree with Uwe on this and admit that I am one of the guilty party. I have used (mainly) my Jazz bass for 30 years now. It wasn't until I became aware of Allen Woody that I even questioned why anyone played a Gibson bass. Even though I knew Jack Bruce and Andy Fraser were EB players I think I had read media comments to the effect that they only used them because they were little guys with short fingers. I had tried Grabbers and Rippers in shops that were not setup at all and they felt awful. Then I got to borrow a mates Victory. :rolleyes:
That was it, I was convinced that Gibson might make great Les Pauls but they had no idea how to make a bass. And thats how it stayed for years.
Then I was introduced to Govt Mule and instantly I was blown away by the sound that the bassist was getting. It was deeper richer and mostly more organic sounding but with massive amounts of tone drenched power and I wasn't able to emulate it. With my Jazz which is modified quite a bit I can cover most (or what I considered to be then) sounds reasonably well. Listening to Allen Woody on the Live at the Roseland Ballroom album opened up a whole new world of bass sounds that not only were interesting but it was like opening the door to a candy shop after hours for a kid.
I love the bottom end that Gibsons have that Fenders dont. I love the sound of the wood that Gibsons have that seems less apparent on a P or Jazz.
I have learned with much enthusiasm how damn good a Thunderbird with TB plus pups can sound through an Ampeg. Man, What a sound!
I Love the sound and feel of my Allen Woody sig bass and I still dont understand why Uwe switched out the Woody/Farmer designed pups for the TV Jones. Mind you, I haven't heard Uwe's AW bass either.
And finally the bassist who must be mentioned for having a Mudbucker installed in his Fender Jazz bass to get THAT sound is Mel Schacher. He obviously felt the need to be taken as a serious bass player but still wanted real bottom end ;)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/Atomicant/mel2.jpg)
I played my EB-3 exclusively for 20+ years and it never prevented me from being in a band, but I have been called 'the guy who likes Gibson basses' ;D. most of the comments regarding my sound have been positive although there's almost always an element of surprise in their voices. maybe they're just being polite. of course, I'm an amateur hack rocker, and the other amateur hacks I play with are just glad they don't have to play bass. hacks don't seem to care about what kind of gear one uses as much as the seasoned pros. while my Gibsons are accepted, my Ric seems to get more respect.
most band members don't give a sh*t which bass I bring along for a gig. They even can't tell the difference between a Gibson or Fender (with the exception of some guitar players).
The female singers are the worst. They only look at the colour. Oeh, that blue one looks nice.
Last rehearsal I had the same bass as rehearsal before and the female singers asked if I brought a different bass each rehearsal. It was because the colour looked a bit different under the lights....
I think the only ones who cares which bass it is are the bassplayers themselves.
I don't think the Bias towards Fender holds all that true today with younger players. I also thought Fenders just felt like a cobbed together plank compared to Gibson which to me feels more like a instrument. I am not slamming Fenders I even own some now ;) Most of my favorite players always played something different. Paul Hofner/Ric, Jim Lea EB3s, Entwistle Thunderbirds/Fenderbirds, Dennis Dunnaway modded EBO (then he switched to a J :sad: ) Martin Turner Wish Bone Ash Thunderbird. Fenders always seemed so pedestrian to me.
Quote from: TBird1958 on March 11, 2009, 09:49:35 PMmy first good bass was a black 4001 Rick that I kept for 30 years
Yeah, here in the UK, a ric was always coo'd over way more than a Fender (at least in my experience). Fact is, the 60s players didn't really have Fenders too often, and so a good deal of the Fender shaped basses were copies. Hollowbodies made more of an impression too.
My first bass was an EB4L - I settled for it because I didn't quite have enough for the ric I wanted... and i've never looked back. I eventually got the ric, and barely use it.
Fenders have always looked generic to me (except coronados and competition mustangs).
QuoteI don't think the Bias towards Fender holds all that true today with younger players
Only on some other sites I will fail to name....
I know that bandleaders I've worked with are more comfortable seeing a Fender Precision if you're subbing, they have a comfort zone about them and they know pretty much what they're going to hear. Lately though I've had a few people out of the crowd come up to me and ask if I "brought the Thunderbird tonight" which surprises me. Nice to know they're watching and listening.
I have a lot on not-playing friends. They can't see the difference between a bass and a guitar, but they all know my T-Bird:)
Quote from: angrymatt on March 11, 2009, 08:51:07 PMThe, "sound guy," explained to me that he was a bass player, and he was mostly turned off by it claiming that anything my bird could do, his jazz could do and better. Of course, he couldn't mix or manage the PA very well...
Most "sound guys" are deaf! ;D
Quote from: gearHed289 on March 12, 2009, 08:49:54 AM
Most "sound guys" are deaf! ;D
Only about 80% of them. And most of the other 20% are tone deaf. ;D
Pete Townshend at the end of a very bad gig. One of the first Quadrophenia gigs with bad working tapes:
'I'm sorry this has been a shit gig, but we're going to play Won't Get Fooled Again and I p[romise to play it in tune, not that any of youthick cunts would notice the difference.'
Quote from: Freuds_Cat on March 12, 2009, 04:21:25 AM
I have to agree with Uwe on this and admit that I am one of the guilty party. I have used (mainly) my Jazz bass for 30 years now. It wasn't until I became aware of Allen Woody that I even questioned why anyone played a Gibson bass. Even though I knew Jack Bruce and Andy Fraser were EB players I think I had read media comments to the effect that they only used them because they were little guys with short fingers. I had tried Grabbers and Rippers in shops that were not setup at all and they felt awful. Then I got to borrow a mates Victory. :rolleyes:
That was it, I was convinced that Gibson might make great Les Pauls but they had no idea how to make a bass. And thats how it stayed for years.
Then I was introduced to Govt Mule and instantly I was blown away by the sound that the bassist was getting. It was deeper richer and mostly more organic sounding but with massive amounts of tone drenched power and I wasn't able to emulate it. With my Jazz which is modified quite a bit I can cover most (or what I considered to be then) sounds reasonably well. Listening to Allen Woody on the Live at the Roseland Ballroom album opened up a whole new world of bass sounds that not only were interesting but it was like opening the door to a candy shop after hours for a kid.
I love the bottom end that Gibsons have that Fenders dont. I love the sound of the wood that Gibsons have that seems less apparent on a P or Jazz.
I have learned with much enthusiasm how damn good a Thunderbird with TB plus pups can sound through an Ampeg. Man, What a sound!
I Love the sound and feel of my Allen Woody sig bass and I still dont understand why Uwe switched out the Woody/Farmer designed pups for the TV Jones. Mind you, I haven't heard Uwe's AW bass either.
And finally the bassist who must be mentioned for having a Mudbucker installed in his Fender Jazz bass to get THAT sound is Mel Schacher. He obviously felt the need to be taken as a serious bass player but still wanted real bottom end ;)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/Atomicant/mel2.jpg)
But notice that Mel had the mudbucker quite a bit to the rear, he was hedging his bets!
I suppose some people might consider this indoctrination, but I have always had a preference for Gibson because my father was a guitarist who was convinced Gibson was the best. As Uwe has stated, the bias against Gibson often doesn't exist with guitarists. This was the way it was with my father and it's certainly that way with my best friend who is a guitarist totally devoted to Gibson. My main bass through the years has been a 64 EB-O. I'd gladly post pics if I had a camera that was working. I'd say the EB-O is probably at the bottom of the totem poll when it comes to Gibsons, and it's true I would have preferred an EB-3 at least. Be that as it may, it has reached the point that it's hard to imagine playing anything else but the EB-O now. Once when I was a teenager, I had a gig in which for some reason I couldn't use the EB-O. I ended up having to borrow a Fender at the last moment. That was the most unpleasant gig I've ever played. It was like trying to play a railroad track with strings. Since that time, I've not been too fond of Fenders. However, in 2006 I found myself in another situation in which I couldn't use my Gibson. I had to make an emergency purchase and got a Fender jazz copy to play several gigs with. Those gigs ended up being some of the most memorable gigs of my life. At the last one, a drummer from another band even referred to my "Fender," and this was so bizarre to me having someone call my bass a Fender. But that Fender copy did fine and by that time I was even used to the wide Fender necks; so that wasn't a problem, either. Nevertheless, I still prefer Gibson. My preference would probably be an LP or maybe even a T-Bird. But neck and back problems make having one of those impractical. I think the LP is probably the most beautiful bass on earth. I am mystified when people say that people playing them are only bassists who want to be guitarists; that is such an uninformed statement to make. Even though I'm not an LP owner, hearing such a statement applied to me personally would definitely not go over well.
I have never had an affection for Fender P or J basses. They were never an option when I bought a bass guitar in the past. I chose Ibanez and Music Man basses. Of course I knew of Gibson basses, because of people like Andy Fraser and Pete Way. But I used to think their sound was created with their amps rather than basses... :-\
I must admit I only "discovered" Gibson basses in the mid nineties when I saw Cry Of Love bass player Robert Kearns using a Gibson Triumph.
His sound -using two Ampeg SVT stacks- was so incredibly good, I decided there and then that I needed a Triumph too.
When I finally found my first Gibson Bass, the Les Paul Bass I started to search for more information on the Internet. So I stumbled upon the Dudepit. This was back in the days when Uwe only had a few (!)
A whole new world was opening. I found out I wasn't the only one who couldn't care less for a Fender P or J.
I don't consider myself a real Gibson fan. I'm more of a Gibson Lo-Z bass fan I guess.
But I do have a huge sympathy for a brand that released so many different models of which only two (and a half?) were really successful.
As for bass players / guitarists; they often think all Gibson basses are shortscale. And they all sound muddy. And they're all too heavy. And they're all neck divers. And the headstock snaps if you point at it (some if you look too intense).
I still don't understand why the Les Paul Bass isn't more popular. It is really the best sounding bass that I've ever heard. And it plays like butter.
Guess I'm headstrong about such things...
QuoteI still don't understand why the Les Paul Bass isn't more popular. It is really the best sounding bass that I've ever heard. And it plays like butter.
There's a lot to say and talk about the brands... In fact, these forums run on that fuell...
However, the proof of the pudding is eating it. I own (and owned) several different brands. Sometimes my heart went over to Gibson for a while (Triumph, no EB3), hardly to Rick. But mostly to Fender. Those are rockers. My J' 72 is the nicest thing I ever, ever played. It's like a dream, light and fast, always in balance. My Friend. Not tiny on the D and G. It suits me and my band the most.
That's my believe... I believe...(http://www.treshombres.nl/Pictures/Thijs/Thijs%20Lenssen/album/slides/DSC_0647.JPG)
I picked a Ripper as my first bass back when I started to learn the instrument - black, worn, love at first sight. Added an (equally well used) EB-3 a couple of years later. Maybe the Ripper corrupted me somehow, but ever since all the Fenders I played, and I do own a few myself by now, have sounded 'wrong' somehow. Not lifeless, not dull, but different enough to make me long for one of my Gibsons after a couple of minutes. I keep on trying to like the Jazz, because its design appeals to me, and because the fretless I have is a pretty cool bass in its own right, but its an uphill battle. One that Fender will probably never win.
Man, I've owned some really Nice vintage slab board Fenders and you know what...They AIN"T a pimple on the ass of a 60's THUNDERBIRD!!!!!! They are Great basses, mind you but...Man...I swear my 65 reverse pelham blue Thunderbird sounds like a MEAN P bass on ACID!!!
I got Rave Up as a kid, and never looked back. I remember going into a music shop that had a set of tape wounds in the bargain bin and the post-hippy guy had a youth flashback when I bought them. He asked what I was putting them on, and I told him I liked EB-2s. And he said "Those feed back." I said they didn't. He then said, "Well, they sound like shit." I said they didn't. I then told him "If I wanted to sound nasal or clanky, I would play a Fender. But I like to sound fat." And that was it. I had a Fender then, but I liked that the Gibson sounded like a bass, or at least like what I wanted a bass to sound like. Plus an EB2 could be bought for $150-200 with a case.
And I have to give mention to John McVie, who had a mudbucker in his Jazz bass in the late 60s.
Mel Schacher did go Gibson for a while, a Ripper, wasn't it, around the American Band era and to the end of the original line-up of GFR...
QuoteI keep on trying to like the Jazz, because its design appeals to me, and because the fretless I have is a pretty cool bass in its own right, but its an uphill battle. One that Fender will probably never win.
I think I know what you mean... had the same feeling with F's after '75... Since I once heard and tried the pré '75 basses, I knew the difference in Fenders ... you should try it.
Gibson's are for studio recording. To me, it is NO life rocker! (Aaajjh... stepping on toes...?)
I reckon I just wandered in to the wrong part of town, but here I am anyway. Got my first Gibson at the ripe old age of 14. It was a custom EBO with the pickup mounted back toward the bridge side and it sounded good and growly. I got an Epi solid body a year or two after that and played them both . I always lusted for an EB2 because I thought they were the best looking bass ever, and all my local heroes had them. I got one and had it for about a week and it sounded like crap through both my amps, so I dumped it as quick as I could.
Bought a brand new Fender P the year I graduated high school in 1970 and I still have it. Became somewhat of a Fender bigot, got rid of the Gibson and Epi and never looked back. Picked up a Fender 51 P RI a few years ago and it will probably be with me forever too. I bought and sold a Rick pretty quickly during the 70s. I've had an Earthwood ABG since 1972 and I got an Olympia ABG a few years ago and they will likely be with me forever also. Every now and then at a jam I'll pick up somebodys Gibson and play for while, but they just don't do it for me anymore. No Gibson trashing here, they just don't feel right to me anymore. The only Gibson that I would be interested in would be the Thunderbird. I never spent much time with one but I liked the feel and the sound enough to spark a little something inside. The rest just don't call out to me. I don't care much for Hofners , Ricks or Alembics either. I don't knock them , I just don't get the vibe from them like I do from something that says Fender on it. I may be a bit of a biggot, but I came by it naturally ;D
Rick
My first bass was a Gibson Grabber (though I started out on a borrowed Ric). I bought it because it was cheap and different (I'd never heard of nor seen one before). A few years later I fell for that "A Fender Precision is the way to go"-talk and got a 1980 Fender Precision Special. When the Epiphone EB-0 entered the market I thought a shortscale would be nice and buying one made me look to the Gibson EB-3. When I got one I searched for some info and discovered Dudepit (even pre Uwe-days). It just escalated from then on discovering many different interesting models.
To me it seems like most bassplayers have the old notion (young players inherit these ideas also) that Gibson basses are blurry. I often recieve compliments when I play my Gibsons, even from bassplayers though I suppose most of them would hesitate to buy one anyway. Forums like these seem to influence people in a positive direction. I noticed that in our Swedish bass forum I see more positive responses speaking of the Gibson brand now than when the forum was new (it is only in its third year). It's all about education and exposion. Especially EB's are being more popular among young players.