Having played Baldwin Gretsches for over 30 years I have noticed Fenders now offers Fender basses with Filtertrons. The Broadkaster, TK300 & Committee are fine instruments with a great sound. The Filtertron and Supertron II were fine pick ups. TC Jones designed some its pickups after those Baldwin era blade blacktops. So with both TV Jones & Fender implementing the Baldwin era electronics it is interesting to say the least. Funny how an idea like post CBS, Baldwin or Norland are no good - can get legs - when it is complete nonsense.
Out of curiosity, which Fender models are you thinking about? I went through everything listed here https://shop.fender.com/en-US/electric-basses/ and didn't see anything. (You have to click "Load more" several times to get the complete list.)
CABRONITA - The original Custom Shop Cabronita was introduced in 2009 (Before there was a made-in-Mexico Classic Players Cabronita Telecaster, there was the 60th Anniversary Cabronita, which was made in California for one production year in 2011. It essentially uses the same design, with two TV Jones Filter'Tron humbuckers.
Notably after Fender started making Gretsches - those designs started mixing and matching with Fenders
https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/guitars/fender-cabronita-p-bass-590463
and at the Fender website
https://shop.fender.com/en/intl/electric-basses/other/coronado-bass-2013-2016/0243200509.html
I can't speak to new vs. old series, but I have two Gretsch basses with ThunderTrons (a ThunderJet and a modified 2220) and one (an orange 5123 hollowbody) with FilterTrons. I also have a yellow Dean Cabbie with FilterTrons just installed.
I have liked the sound for years.
I do need to change the impedence of the vol/tone pots in the Dean because after the pickup switch, the tone control does essentially nothing. Lucky that it sounds good to me as is.
Quote from: 7615 on October 04, 2019, 10:49:00 AM
Having played Baldwin Gretsches for over 30 years I have noticed Fenders now offers Fender basses with Filtertrons. The Broadkaster, TK300 & Committee are fine instruments with a great sound. The Filtertron and Supertron II were fine pick ups. TC Jones designed some its pickups after those Baldwin era blade blacktops. So with both TV Jones & Fender implementing the Baldwin era electronics it is interesting to say the least. Funny how an idea like post CBS, Baldwin or Norland are no good - can get legs - when it is complete nonsense.
Here we go again. :rolleyes:
None of TV Jones' pickups are based on Baldwin era designs. The TV Jones Supertron is based on an early 60s (pre-Baldwin era) design, per his website.
No current Fenders have Gretsch-style pickups. They did for a couple of years but the models weren't successful enough for them so they were discontinued.
The current Gretsch blacktops aren't blade pickups. AFAIK they're a new design with ceramic magnets, not a clone of an earlier design.
You're entitled to like what you like, but CBS era Fenders and Norlin (not Norland) era Gibsons are much more valued in the marketplace that Baldwin-era Gretsches.
I've read histories of Gretsch and they definitely indicated that the Baldwin era was not regarded as a strong one for Gretsch.
I've never played one of the Baldwin or pre-Baldwin Gretsch basses, so no first-hand experience with them here. I just know I like the current ones.
The Sr product manager at Gretsch on Gretsch pick-ups - the DNA comes from Baldwin era blacktops - see his comments below
"Regarding the scoop on the Black Top F"ilter'Tron pickups, here's the low-down...
* The Black Top Filter'tron pickups are NOT identical to the HS Filter'tron.
* The DNA for the "Black Top" came from a found set of Filter'tron pickups from the Baldwin era. Its voice has a little more output but slightly less high-end sparkle than the HS Filter'Tron. Please know we intentionally do not publish detail specs of the magnets, wire or frame assembly as they are a patented Gretsch recipe.
* You should also know the specs for the HS Filter'tron pickups changed after FMIC got involved with Gretsch. It was a running change that happened sometime between 2003 & 2004. Mike Lewis took the DNA based off of an original set of Filter'tron pickups from 1959.
Hope to see you next year at the Roundup!
All the best,
Joe Carducci
Sr. Product Manager
Gretsch Guitars"
Agreed the TV Jones are not really the same - I switched out a TV jones out of a Baldwin era bass and reinstalled the original Baldwin. Less high end sparkle than TV jones - which I prefer - even though the TV Jones use magnets . Matter of taste. Found TV Jones sounded better if playing with a pick but I play 90% of the time using fingers. Baldwins though definitely have more output than a modern Gretsch pick up.
Gretsch does use ceramic and I think that is why they have more high end sparkle. Not sure about the output but as Carducci says - specs are a trade secret. Fidelitron are Fenders Gretsch knock offs and are currently available on a Fender bass or 2.
https://shop.fender.com/en/intl/electric-basses/precision-bass/cabronita-precision-bass/0145602306.html
comes with a Gretsch pick up knock off - not the Baldwin bladed - but the Gretsch sound.
The pre Baldwin era is a bit hard to distinguish as 2 of my traditional design Gentleman's are post July 67 (are Baldwins) - and are impeccably made. In Fact my late 68 6072 is the best build of all 4 basses. The pick-ups are hotter than the 63 & 64 I have - but those are Filtertrons vs Supertron II's. The early 70's bass pick-ups are not as hot as the late 60's but have the same output as my 63 & 64. Comparing solid bodies to hollow bodies though is not the best way to A B pickups.
Those early 70's Matsumoku J basses - are often better than the contemporaneous CBS Fenders. Go for a fraction of the price of a Fender. What is the cost and what is the value are 2 different subjects.
Quote from: 7615 on October 07, 2019, 02:47:28 PM
The Sr product manager at Gretsch on Gretsch pick-ups - the DNA comes from Baldwin era blacktops - see his comments below
"Regarding the scoop on the Black Top F"ilter'Tron pickups, here's the low-down...
* The Black Top Filter'tron pickups are NOT identical to the HS Filter'tron.
* The DNA for the "Black Top" came from a found set of Filter'tron pickups from the Baldwin era. Its voice has a little more output but slightly less high-end sparkle than the HS Filter'Tron. Please know we intentionally do not publish detail specs of the magnets, wire or frame assembly as they are a patented Gretsch recipe.
* You should also know the specs for the HS Filter'tron pickups changed after FMIC got involved with Gretsch. It was a running change that happened sometime between 2003 & 2004. Mike Lewis took the DNA based off of an original set of Filter'tron pickups from 1959.
Hope to see you next year at the Roundup!
All the best,
Joe Carducci
Sr. Product Manager
Gretsch Guitars"
So the product manager - an FMIC marketing person, not a pickup expert -- claims that "the DNA" for the current blacktops, which have polepieces and ceramic magnets, comes from a Baldwin-era alnico magnet blade blacktop? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:
And the pickup details are a secret because it's a "patented Gretsch recipe?" Yeah, right. :rolleyes: If it's patented, the patent will show the details, and a quick search shows that there aren't any current patents held by Gretsch.
(https://i.imgur.com/sB4TyGt.gif)
Quote from: 7615 on October 07, 2019, 02:47:28 PM
Agreed the TV Jones are not really the same - I switched out a TV jones out of a Baldwin era bass and reinstalled the original Baldwin. Less high end sparkle than TV jones - which I prefer - even though the TV Jones use magnets . Matter of taste. Found TV Jones sounded better if playing with a pick but I play 90% of the time using fingers. Baldwins though definitely have more output than a modern Gretsch pick up.
Gretsch does use ceramic and I think that is why they have more high end sparkle. Not sure about the output but as Carducci says - specs are a trade secret. Fidelitron are Fenders Gretsch knock offs and are currently available on a Fender bass or 2.
https://shop.fender.com/en/intl/electric-basses/precision-bass/cabronita-precision-bass/0145602306.html
comes with a Gretsch pick up knock off - not the Baldwin bladed - but the Gretsch sound.
The pre Baldwin era is a bit hard to distinguish as 2 of my traditional design Gentleman's are post July 67 (are Baldwins) - and are impeccably made. In Fact my late 68 6072 is the best build of all 4 basses. The pick-ups are hotter than the 63 & 64 I have - but those are Filtertrons vs Supertron II's. The early 70's bass pick-ups are not as hot as the late 60's but have the same output as my 63 & 64. Comparing solid bodies to hollow bodies though is not the best way to A B pickups.
Those early 70's Matsumoku J basses - are often better than the contemporaneous CBS Fenders. Go for a fraction of the price of a Fender. What is the cost and what is the value are 2 different subjects.
Your Cabronita link is a dead end. Fender hasn't made Cabronitas since about 2015. I suspect the Fidelitrons were renamed Gretsch pickups, to avoid Gretsch's trademarks.
Ceramic magnets don't have any more or less high end sparkle, because, as the late Bill Lawrence often said, magnets don't have a sound. If the pickup as more high end than another, it's because of the design of the whole circuit, not the choice of magnet.
You're just trolling about the Matsumoku basses of the early 70s. But that's no surprise.
So Dave if you are not interested in Gretsches - why are you here. To be insulting. A troll by definition.
You played a Baldwin Gretsch in a store once. And you call yourself an expert, and repeat the meme of bad instruments. (here we go again... )
Because you know so much more than the Senior product manager at Gretsch. So Dave Carducci is a liar. Interesting point. Your evidence for that please. That link was on the Fender site - I typed in Fender reviewed the basses for sale and it came up at the current site. But again Dave you know this how?
Ceramics do sound different - so now you are just talking out of your rear. But you do that a lot don't you Dave. You have no interest in Gretsch basses so why are you even here. To do your troll thing?
Dave how does a troll like you become a moderator? A troll repeats BS over and over and that is you. That Baldwins were bad and they sound bad -is a position given from someone who played one for a few minutes in a store. You regurgitate the Fred Gretsch junior nonsense - who made inferior instruments to Baldwin- because it served his business strategy - family member rejuvenates Gretsch from evil clutches of Baldwin. A troll repeats nonsense. That would be you.
Matsumoku's are fine instruments but a know nothing like you wouldn't know anything about that. Gibson certainly thought they were good enough to make them basses.
It is fascinating how one can become an expert by not playing a group of instruments.
But no surprise here - but I will be reporting you to the other moderators.
trolling is to repeat nonsense - something you do constantly on the Baldwin issue. Players who own the old basses love them - some who read about them regurgitate their false expertise. Troll by definition.
You insult any knowledgable player with your brand of idiocy trolling. Dave your are a fraud. Go find some other thread to irritate.
Quote from: 7615 on October 08, 2019, 07:35:59 AM
So Dave if you are not interested in Gretsches - why are you here. To be insulting. A troll by definition.
You played a Baldwin Gretsch in a store once. And you call yourself an expert, and repeat the meme of bad instruments. (here we go again... )
Because you know so much more than the Senior product manager at Gretsch. So Dave Carducci is a liar. Interesting point. Your evidence for that please. That link was on the Fender site - I typed in Fender reviewed the basses for sale and it came up at the current site. But again Dave you know this how?
Ceramics do sound different - so now you are just talking out of your rear. But you do that a lot don't you Dave. You have no interest in Gretsch basses so why are you even here. To do your troll thing?
Dave how does a troll like you become a moderator? A troll repeats BS over and over and that is you. That Baldwins were bad and they sound bad -is a position given from someone who played one for a few minutes in a store. You regurgitate the Fred Gretsch junior nonsense - who made inferior instruments to Baldwin- because it served his business strategy - family member rejuvenates Gretsch from evil clutches of Baldwin. A troll repeats nonsense. That would be you.
Matsumoku's are fine instruments but a know nothing like you wouldn't know anything about that.
It is fascinating how one can become an expert by not playing a group of instruments.
But no surprise here - but I will be reporting you to the other moderators.
trolling is repeat nonsense - something you do constantly on the Baldwin issue.
You insult any knowledgable player with your brand of idiocy trolling.
I'm the co-owner of this forum, you f***ing dumbass.
You came here with an agenda. I'm tired of your bullshit.
Aside from the odd spammer that gets through, I've only had to ban two people since we started in January 2008. Congratulations, you're number three.
Quote from: Dave W on October 08, 2019, 12:26:59 AMCeramic magnets don't have any more or less high end sparkle, because, as the late Bill Lawrence often said, magnets don't have a sound. If the pickup as more high end than another, it's because of the design of the whole circuit, not the choice of magnet.
I want to get this forcibly tattooed on a few people.
People say ceramic mag pickups are harsh, brittle, hard, bright... what they are really describing is ceramic cookware. The word "ceramic" burrows into the brain. The endless boner for different types of Alnico, and the assumed superiority of the material, gets very tiring.
I owned this Coronado Reissue for a while. Never has a more exciting looking bass sounded less exciting plugged in.
(https://i.imgur.com/j7eFR84.jpg)
Quote from: Alanko on October 08, 2019, 02:38:53 PM
I want to get this forcibly tattooed on a few people.
People say ceramic mag pickups are harsh, brittle, hard, bright... what they are really describing is ceramic cookware. The word "ceramic" burrows into the brain. The endless boner for different types of Alnico, and the assumed superiority of the material, gets very tiring.
...
A pickup magnet is one component in audio circuit. Change the value of that component enough and the tone may change. That's no different than changing any other component. The magnet itself has no tone. Hard for some people to understand.
Alnico was used in most pre-CBS Fenders and most pre-Norlin Gibsons. The assumed superiority of those guitars and basses is why some people prefer alnico. That doesn't make it wrong, though. Depends on what the pickup maker is trying to accomplish.
Quote from: Dave W on October 09, 2019, 10:49:21 PM
A pickup magnet is one component in audio circuit. Change the value of that component enough and the tone may change. That's no different than changing any other component. The magnet itself has no tone. Hard for some people to understand.
Alnico was used in most pre-CBS Fenders and most pre-Norlin Gibsons. The assumed superiority of those guitars and basses is why some people prefer alnico. That doesn't make it wrong, though. Depends on what the pickup maker is trying to accomplish.
I'm with you here Dave - but I'm amazed how often I have to discuss this with guitarists in the shop. They ask about how I can age alnico to make it 'sound' like a particular guitar hero on a particular song.... I usually just advice them to drop acid :-\
Quote from: amptech on October 10, 2019, 12:56:02 AM
I'm with you here Dave - but I'm amazed how often I have to discuss this with guitarists in the shop. They ask about how I can age alnico to make it 'sound' like a particular guitar hero on a particular song.... I usually just advice them to drop acid :-\
When that question arises, it's time to paraphrase the old saying: "Talk to the fingers."
Different magnets have different characteristics and make different results on one certain pickup coil. Same goes for different gauge wiring and turns and how the pickups are physically constructed. Too many parameters which by all means can be used to at least estimate the result before hand, if you're a knowledgeable pickupmaker.
But, no such thing as "ceramic magnets sound too harsh" etc. I think of those endless statements where the strength of the pickup output is all equal to the DC resistance of the coil/coils.
Quote from: doombass on October 10, 2019, 02:09:04 PM
Different magnets have different characteristics and make different results on one certain pickup coil. Same goes for different gauge wiring and turns and how the pickups are physically constructed. Too many parameters which by all means can be used to at least estimate the result before hand, if you're a knowledgeable pickupmaker.
But, no such thing as "ceramic magnets sound too harsh" etc. I think of those endless statements where the strength of the pickup output is all equal to the DC resistance of the coil/coils.
You can change the tone by using a different size magnet of the same type. As you said, so many parameters.
The DC resistance of otherwise identical pickups wound with the same wire can be useful for comparing relative output, but that's all.
Quote from: amptech on October 10, 2019, 12:56:02 AM
I'm with you here Dave - but I'm amazed how often I have to discuss this with guitarists in the shop. They ask about how I can age alnico to make it 'sound' like a particular guitar hero on a particular song.... I usually just advice them to drop acid :-\
You can thank Seymour Duncan for the "aged magnets" marketing-speak.
Build a little machine that has lights and sounds but otherwise does nothing. While your customer is watching, pass the pickups under the machine. Take the customer's money for this valuable service. He'll swear he hears improved tone. You'll be hailed as a genius. :)
Quote from: amptech on October 10, 2019, 12:56:02 AM
I'm with you here Dave - but I'm amazed how often I have to discuss this with guitarists in the shop. They ask about how I can age alnico to make it 'sound' like a particular guitar hero on a particular song.... I usually just advice them to drop acid :-\
Do they not realise that the guitar heroes of the '70s were using relatively new gear back then? How quickly does alnico degauss anyway? Beyond that, Tony Iommi was using radgy-spec John Birch pickups, Jimmy Page used more T-tops than PAFs during a given gig, ask anybody how to get their tones and you will get a million unhelpful answers.
I've seen people talk about the quintessential Marshall tone Marc Bolan used on 20th Century Boy... talking about a Les Paul plugged into a solid state HH IC100 amplifier with the 'sustain' switched on. The tone is quite fizzy, brittle sounding, and nothing like a Marshall.
Jerry Garcia claimed that his Dimarzio Super Distortions lost their edge after a few years as the magnets had lost their potency. Today we know this as tinnitus. :rimshot:
Quote from: Alanko on October 17, 2019, 02:59:04 PM
How quickly does alnico degauss anyway?
A couple of hundred years, I think :) If you demagnetize them, you actually have a classic renaissance pickup!
Quote from: Alanko on October 17, 2019, 02:59:04 PM
Jerry Garcia claimed that his Dimarzio Super Distortions lost their edge after a few years as the magnets had lost their potency. Today we know this as tinnitus. :rimshot:
Lack of potency and hearing, that's what's waiting for all of us :-\
Here's what Bill Lawrence had to say about magnets.
Bill Lawrence - Pickupology - Magnets (http://billlawrence.com/Pages/Pickupology/magnets.htm)
Speaking of Gretsch and pickups. The Tom Petersson short scale has a very nicely dialed in neck pickup that we've previously said could be a sidewinder mudbucker design. It also blends in better with the bridge pickup better than any vintage Gibson based on this demo. Wonder if they'll ever come down in price.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFEl-vtxRt0
Could be, but I wouldn't assume it's a sidewinder just because of the size. It certainly doesn't sound like a Gibson pickup. The better balance must be at least partly due to the location of the rear pickup, compared to a Gibson with the pickup so close to the bridge.
Street price is $3800 new for a White Falcon variant, and it's made in Japan. I can't see the price coming down.