Metallica's 'And Justice for All': What Happened to the Bass?

[westen44]

A new article on an old subject.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/metallicas-and-justice-for-all-album-what-happened-to-bass-715079/

[Dave W]

Egos clashing in a rock band. What a surprise!

[westen44]

The focus is just on a specific Metallica album.  But this whole thing about the bass not being loud enough could be said about a great number of bands.  It's why every time I've tried to listen to Megadeth, I end up stopping.  Because I don't want to listen to anything that features raging guitars sounds to the point that the bass is overwhelmed.  Screw that.  That probably isn't going to be music I'm very interested in listening to.  It's also why over all these years I've often been drawn to 3-piece bands.  At least you can always hear the bass loud and clear.  And although my playing experience is probably more limited than many other people, I've also enjoyed playing in 3-piece bands the most of all.  That's the closest I've ever come to experiencing natural euphoria. 

[Barklessdog]

So many metal bands the bass is gone I. The mix. Dream Theater, whom I tried to listen to because of so many articles about their bassist who is invisible in there recordings.

Mixed by guitarists

[Basvarken]

I think it's silly and ignorant even.
Those bands want their music to sound heavy.
But they don't realise it's the bass that makes the music heavy.

A great producer explained that to me some 25 years ago when we were recording an album.
He showed me what happens if the guitars are too loud in the mix and the bass is too soft. You get a thin and weak sounding mix, without any balls.

It would be interesting to hear how those Metallica, Megadeth and Dream Theater albums would have sounded with the bass properly in the mix.

[4stringer77]

Megadeth seems mixed well for the most part in my estimate. Dave Ellefson's tone is bright but audible compared to some other bands. Some albums are maybe mixed better than others basswise but there are plenty of great bass parts throughout the catalogue. I have to agree that having audible bass lines in metal is a challenge even for those with good intentions. Justice stands out as an album with the bass left out on purpose.

[uwe]

Yup, and justice for Jason. His contribution to Metallica reaching mainstream (and I'm not putting them down with that) is largely unrecognized. Cliff Burton had a "lead bass" style all of his own, but it was neither commercial nor stadium-proof. In my ears, the Black Album was the first Metallica album that had a bass sound to speak of (I always had issues discerning Burton's distorted sound from the barrage of the twin guitars' chugging rhythms), Newsted anchored the band, Burton co-rushed with them, albeit inspiredly.

Strange that Ulrich of all people should be adamant to turn the bass down - he the self-professed lifelong Deep Purple fan where the bass parts of all three bassists - Simper, Glover & Hughes - were always clearly audible though the band had a "star"-lead guitarist, a "star"-organist and a "star"-drummer all clamoring for attention. I believe the secret is that Ulrich - like quite a few drummers - did not so much play along with the bass, but with Hetfield's rhythm guitar. He had to "learn" building a rhythm section with the bass (because Burton wasn't exactly a "locking-in-with-the bass-drum"-style bassist either) and it took him until the Black Album (and Bob Rock's patient mentoring) to do so.

[westen44]

Megadeth seems mixed well for the most part in my estimate. Dave Ellefson's tone is bright but audible compared to some other bands. Some albums are maybe mixed better than others basswise but there are plenty of great bass parts throughout the catalogue. I have to agree that having audible bass lines in metal is a challenge even for those with good intentions. Justice stands out as an album with the bass left out on purpose.

What I'm listening to this music on brings out the bass pretty well.  Several months ago I made a concerted effort to listen to Megadeth quite a lot.  I ended up being really disappointed because at least to me the bass didn't sound loud enough.  I probably listened to about five albums, but usually not all the way through.  I actually like Megadeth, Dave Ellefson, Dave Mustaine and even Dean (associated with Mustaine) guitars and basses (Jon Lawhon Hillsboro.)  In general, though, the bass on Megadeth isn't loud enough for me.  I can say the same thing about a number of other bands of course.  Also, I'm not a big fan of bright-sounding bass, so that may be a factor, too. 

I like this Megadeth song, although I admit a lot has to do with Cristina Scabbia's guest appearance. 

[uwe]

To be fair, there are also bass-friendly mixes in the rock world!

[westen44]

You can find a lot of examples of bass-friendly songs from the 60s, 70s, on into the 80s.  But roughly by 1990 or so there don't seem to be as many.  If people want to flat-out ruin music, that's the way to do it.  The dates themselves may be hard to determine, but the point is at some point somebody decided bass shouldn't be as prominent in the mix.  I don't like to hear complaining and I try not to do it myself, but I just don't like this. 

A case in point would be Aerosmith.   I was never really a fan, but because I've been around someone a lo who is I've been around their music quite a bit.  Sometimes I even ended up playing bass on Aerosmith songs.  That caused me to really admire Tom Hamilton.  He's actually very good, IMO.  But who the hell even knows that because his bass is almost never loud enough in the mix, with of course a number of exceptions, like, of course "Sweet Emotion." 

[Basvarken]

I liked the first two Metallica albums. But since the Master Of Puppets album I sort of lost interest.
Never really listened attentively to And Justice For All.

I looked it up on YouTube to see if somebody maybe fixed the missing bass.




Of course it was ridiculous to delete the bass from the original mix.
But the drums sound pretty silly too! That snare sounds extremely crappy.
 

[uwe]

I personally think that bass suffered (Hip Hop, Rap, RnB excepted - but there is hardly any guitar in those) over the decades as drums became louder and more prominent. Downtuning (guitars reaching deeper) played a role too - the bass on those recordings is possibly not even less loud than on regular recordings, but certainly less audible. Also, bass lines became less individualistic and less independent - don't disturb anything either the drums of the guitars do! -, so caught between those more prominently featured instruments there was less and less for the bass to play (some forms of dance music excepted where bass or keyboard bass patterns were more prominent). And even where the bass was busy (eg in Dream Theater), it is busy aping low register keyboard runs, (downtuned) guitar runs or drum patterns, but not doing something that stands out by itself.

Or it's my ears of an old man! 

Hamilton is a fine player - his sound on those CBS era productions was rawer and edgier - come the 80ies, his sound became more cushioned just as Aerosmith's sound as such became more cinemascope and less "Yardbirdish noisy".

[uwe]

I always thought "Justice" was Metallica's PROGressive rock outing. They obviously needed to get that out of their system before they could record the Black Album. Subsequent albums have seen them return to PROGishness again and again (more so than to the Black Album actually), but never as determinedly as on "Justice".

[tore00]

Justice is my favorite Metallica album for the song composition and prog attitude but by far is the less played in my collection just because the bass is missing. Btw what Metallica did after Black Album is non existing to me

[slinkp]

I'm not that into the songs (or the singer), but for classic thrash bass, Anthrax is a lot of fun.  They've had a couple of excellent bassists and while the tone is very bright and midrangey to cut through, at least you can usually hear what he's playing. For a classic example, "Caught in a Mosh" has a lot of bass playing going on. Even when it's doubling guitar riffs at least you can hear it.

"Justice" just sounds ridiculous to me. I don't get it. Why. Why why why would they think that sounds good?

Another (sometimes-)heavy band with some great bass playing is Living Colour.  The first track on "Time's Up" is just nuts.  His tone annoys me, but I wish I could play that.