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I am shocked!
uwe:
"Right you are."
But I prefer to be on the left, it's my red quadrant comfort zone!
Granny Gremlin:
--- Quote from: Dave W on December 18, 2017, 07:42:16 PM ---Exactly. This isn't rape or attempted rape, it's not a case where a subordinate is afraid of losing her job, etc. If it really happened, slap in the face or a NO or STOP is appropriate. Instead, she files a Jane Doe suit seeking damages. Screw her. I won't be surprised if her identity is discovered, and then she'll find out what real harassment is.
At least she's not bringing up something that allegedly happened 20 years ago. I'm sick and tired of careers being destroyed over minor infractions from ages ago. No doubt some of these men did what they're accused of, but some of the accusations are really suspect. It's just like false rape accusations, they make some people doubt all rape allegations. That hurts real victims.
--- End quote ---
And then Gene would sue her for assault (and win cuz better lawyers and I bet people would see the slap, but his grab was on the down low, no pun intended)? Not to mention he's a big intimidating dude who might hit back. So yeah, brilliant. He's an asshat who IS taking advantage of his (in)fame(y); you done know it ain't the first or last time. No it's not raping a baby, but that is getting close to Goodwin's Law Territory with that ridiculous comparison. Until you've been systematically sexually assaulted, or develop enough empathy to notice it happening to the people around you all the time, maybe don't think your opinion about this topic you know litterally nothing about, and which you don't have to endure personally, is all that valid.
Also, I have news for you, if someone was a predator 20 years ago and didn't get caught, 90% they still doing it now (barring physical inability to do so; which does not apply in the case you speak of ... though he kinda did get caught but not really punished; that one can go either way). It also demonstrates a lack of moral compass (ironic considering the person's demographic and platform), sense of privilege /entitlement; inability to empathize with other human beings, and a general inability to remember that other people (in this case girls) are human beings too and it's not always about you all the dang time.
The chess game thing is pathetic defense - 'there must be some other reason for this besides the fact that it's wrong, always has been and people just don't want to deal with it anymore!" Read the writing on the wall: sexual assault is the canary for all the abuse (varying from the horrible to merely condescending or annoying) that people have to endure at the hands of their 'betters.' It is the start of a revolution against the consolidation of power and the inevitable corruption that results. Yes, maybe in the past, this has been a necessary compromise for civilization to exist, but it no longer is; it is just a legacy that those in power are doing their darnest to protect (because it is in their interests to do so). See the counter-offensive happenning (to avoid the risk of being accused of making this thread political, I will not give examples or elaborate)?
Adolescence being a modern invention is another strawman argument (and also adolescence DID exist as a concept; the idea of young adult or not fully mature goes back to tribal right of passage rituals; reducing older thought on age to child/adult binary is not accurate at all). Just be careful you're not coming across as glorifying those 'good olde days' that actually weren't.
Now the one area where I will give a little is that some cases do seem like over reach - I thought the first accusation against Al Franken (the picture with the sleeping lady in a flac jacket) was a bit of such a reach because it did not look like he was actually touching her; worst case it was a mean, tasteless and insensitive joke... but then what I said above about 20 year old incidents applies - more stuff came to light and you can't just say it's nothing anymore. If the worst thing that happens, is that they get fired from their current job and become a social pariah (i.e. the very thing that used to happen to victims survivors if they dared speak up or out), I say they got off easy. This is a correction, and yes, maybe a tad of an over-correction, but as we know from other systems (e.g. the stock market) that's the way it needs to go so as to be able to find the new equilibrium. What sense does it make to defend these people? ... unless we want to keep doing these things and refuse to change. I have no sympathy for Spacey or even that state rep guy who killed himself, not after he raped his daughters friend at a slumber party, not after he had to look her parents (who had entrusted him with her care for said sleepover) in the eye every Sunday at church for the next few years, not after the survivor FB messaged him about the hurt he'd caused, but only when some story about it was going to come out and it might actually affect him personally for once, and his wife/daughter would find out. Part of the need for empathy and understanding the opposite point of view is illustrated here - for the assaulter it is impersonal; an instant gratification easily forgotten and meaningless (see many of these guys saying they don't even remember these people or that they would never cuz look how non-attractive they are - the badness of what they have done never hits home, even if the person comes to them and tells them what it caused the write-off is always that this person is just weak and needs to 'man up' or whatever) - but for the survivor this has lasting impact, and sure, in the case of an ass grab that's not so bad, except it was probably not a single ass grab, but a lifetime of ass grabs. And I know the macho counter-argument here: ' well when we were kids we got teased and mocked and beat up [and whatever else].' Let me just pre-empt that by rhetorically asking if you think that really had no affect on you whatsoever? I used to think so; thought it was nothing, but I was so wrong. And trust me, I've had it quite worse than the vast majority of you. The system has always been stacked against the survivor, if, at this time there is a bit of overcompensation that is , on a big picture level, better than letting the satus quo continue. You have nothing to fear if you're not a perv (and I mean that in the original creepy sense vs the cute kinky one).
OldManC:
--- Quote from: uwe on December 19, 2017, 04:57:42 PM ---I don't think the guy did anything criminally inappropriate (and told my daughter at the time: "Welcome to the real world, unless you are butt-ugly as a woman, this will happen to you again and again, you will have to learn how to handle it gracefully."), but I was actually proud of her reaction. She became neither a victim nor did she go on a vendetta character-assassinating him.
--- End quote ---
This is perfectly reasonable and a sign of good parenting as well as a smart young woman (to have consulted with her parents about how to handle it). Kudos to all of you.
And I'm with Dave 100% on his views here.
uwe:
Ah Jake, ever the campaigner, it's good to have another opinion here! Keeps it from getting boring ... and in any case the general agreement here was unsettling my contrarian instincts. :mrgreen:
I have a long taking of evidence coming up in a couple of hours, but will revert.
Uwe
PS: I don't think Gene Simmons hits women - ever (role play aside!). He didn't even hit Ace Frehley when he showed up drunk at his hotel door on a Japan tour adorned in period-correct SS officer regalia mouthing something about "world jewry" - a slight punch in the face wouldn't have gone amiss in that situation, especially for the child of a Auschwitz survivoress. Instead he saved Ace's life some time later. Life isn't always black & white.
Dave W:
--- Quote from: lowend1 on December 19, 2017, 08:14:58 PM ---Semi related issue...
Some of you may have seen this commercial. I am by no means offended by it, but it seems to me that were the roles in the spot reversed and a male hotel employee had snapped and shared an image of a female celebrity locked out of her room in her underwear (and made light of it to boot), there would be holy hell to pay. The commercial would have been instantly banned and tongue lashings would abound. Never mind the legal implications of an employee doing that to a guest. I'm just sayin'...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzW6lvPXZVU&ab_channel=Optimum
--- End quote ---
Tell me about it!
A long-married neighbor of mine tried to force herself into my life. She either couldn't or wouldn't control her feelings for me even though I made it abundantly clear that I wasn't interested. Even after cutting off contact I was afraid I'd have to get a restraining order. I'll spare you the details, but if the sexes were reversed -- if she were a married man and I were a single woman -- I'd have attorneys lining up to file a sexual harassment suit.
One of the accusations against Matt Lauer was that he sexually harassed a staffer at the Sochi Olympics. Apparently he's not denying it. But when the accusations became public, a clip was shown of Kathie Lee Gifford and Hoda Kotb at Sochi feeling up a shirtless athlete. I guess that was okay.
--- Quote from: Granny Gremlin on December 20, 2017, 03:09:39 PM ---
Adolescence being a modern invention is another strawman argument (and also adolescence DID exist as a concept; the idea of young adult or not fully mature goes back to tribal right of passage rituals; reducing older thought on age to child/adult binary is not accurate at all). Just be careful you're not coming across as glorifying those 'good olde days' that actually weren't.
--- End quote ---
Nope. These were rites of passage from childhood to adulthood. No question about it. No "adolescence" in between.
None of this excuses sexual assault. I have no idea whether or not Roy Moore is guilty of any kind of sexual misconduct, but unless a pre-pubescent child was involved, he's not a pedophile.
When Great-great Grandpa and Grandma W. were married, he was 21 or 22 and she was 13. They had the approval of church, state and parents. Their marriage lasted 52 years, until his death. Today, he would be in prison and on a sex offender registry for life. Germany in 1858 may not have been the good old days but the current infantilization of young adults is sick, sick, sick.
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