The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bill's Shop: Projects, Mods & Repairs => Topic started by: Alanko on September 24, 2016, 11:55:21 AM
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I've noticed a few budget brands are now offering neodymium pickups for cheap prices. I've bought neodymium magnets in the past to bolster weaker pickups, and I understand Alembic even offered a professional 'pickup booster' kit that was basically a ceramic bar magnet you stuck on the back of a Strat pickup or similar.
Out of curiosity, I'm wondering if I can wring a bit more output from my Mustang bass in a similar manner? In the long term (give it a few weeks) I might invest in a pickup upgrade for the wee beast. In the short term I was wondering if I can replace the slugs in the stock pickups with neodymium magnets? At the moment I feel that the stock pickups are a bit... thin? There is a bit of everything going on with the bass's tone, but it is a bit weak sounding overall.
I've found magnetic rod of a suitable size (6 mm by 15 mm), and for cheap. If nothing else I might tap one slug out the stock pickup on the wee beast and see what it sounds like. My fear, and probably the most obvious issue, is that the corresponding string will be inseparably attracted to the pickup. Secondly, there might be no tonal difference or output difference...
With these pickups, do I need to have the poles facing North in one half and South in the other? Should I simply see what direction the neodymium rods want to bond with the stock magnets, and use that as a reference? I've never worked with pickups with charged poles before.
Cheers,
Alan
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It's not a good idea to replace charged iron rods with neo rods, the string pull will be too strong. Instead you could try to change the (ceramic) magnet bar with a neo, or, even better, to push back a little the top of the iron rods and stick neo "button cell" magnets on the top. You must be careful thru, all magnets must have the same orientation (all south OR north to strings).
edit: just realised you are talking about a mustang pickup, in that case each "half" of the pickup must have magnets with DIFFERENT orientation from the other one (one half south to strings, and the other north to strings). You can check orientation with a compass.
Beware not to let those pesky neos to stick together, its almost impossible to take them apart after. Also, they are fragile.
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The mustang pickups don't have a ceramic bar, just charged rods. I've purchased some neo buttons as well.
Just a thought, but do the rods have to go right through the coil and be up under the strings? What would happen if I used the neo rods, and simply pushed them 5mm or so down from the top of the flatwork?
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I think it will work, I have never tried that. You will get reduced output due to reduced magnetic pull, but how much I don't know. Those neos (especially the higher grades like N52) pull like crazy.
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It will be a fun experiment if nothing else. I can get a chuckle from watching a bass string throw itself at the pickup cover. :mrgreen:
These are the bar magnets Entwistle use in their neo pickups:
(https://electricpickupartist.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/xs62n.jpg)
Nothing too high tech there.
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Yeah, its how a P-90 is constructed (or a cheap strat pickup). I don't like the extra long iron rods that extend behind the magnets, I have read that this just wastes magnetic energy or something. But that maybe makes sence when working with neos.
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Entwistle use those long tapped poles on a lot of their pickups. I've owned a few sets. They appear adjustable, being threaded and coming with a slot in the top. However whenever I tried to adjust them they simply broke the magnets free of their epoxy on the back of the pickup! No idea why they need an extra ~5 mm of pole extending out the back like that.
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Who knows, maybe they have found them on a sale and they are using them on everything they produce! :P
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Who knows, maybe they have found them on a sale and they are using them on everything they produce! :P
Unfortunately this is likely to be true..
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are Entwhistle pickups connected in anyway with JAE?
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Unfortunately this is likely to be true..
You know, the funniest part of it, if its true, is that they could just install the poles so the screw part is under the coil, and sell them as non-adjustable. That company must have more salesmen than engineers...
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are Entwhistle pickups connected in anyway with JAE?
No connection. The bloke behind them is called Alan Entwhistle. I reckon they are made by Artec or similar to Alan's specs. They have a pickup called a 'Dark Star' which is somewhat confusing.
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Guys, there is no h in Entwistle!
And I thought these were designed by Entwistle the electrician from Last of the Summer Wine.
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And I thought these were designed by Entwistle the electrician from Last of the Summer Wine.
I thought you woz an American? :o
I've been to Holmfirth, which is where that show is set. I think I even went round a museum dedicated to the show... not much else to do there!
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I thought you woz an American? :o
I've been to Holmfirth, which is where that show is set. I think I even went round a museum dedicated to the show... not much else to do there!
If it weren't for UK TV shows I get on PBS or online through Acorn TV, I wouldn't have much to watch.
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30 years ago radio shack used to sell this package of button magnets. I think it was for guys who wanted to build their kits or stick Family Circus comic strips on the fridge. I bought them and stuck them on the bottom of a Japanese pup's pole pieces in a Kent bass. It did give it a bit more oomph.
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You may have been the last person to ever buy anything from Radio Shack.
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So... neodymium pickups are an astonishingly bad idea.
I took the A polepiece out of the E-A pickup half, and replaced it with a neodymium slug. I plugged the bass back in and gave it a try. The A definitely had a more strident, full tone. With this in mind I removed the other 3 pole pieces...
Problem! In pushing the pole pieces out for the D and G strings the pickup basically fell apart. The coil separated from the flatwork, breaking the solder joints for the coil. I resoldered the coil, glued the flatwork back on and carried on. Once the glue dried I added my neodymium poles. This worked great for the E-A pickup half, but didn't work out so great for the D-G half. The pickup started tearing itself apart again. Basically the neo magnets weren't playing ball. One was pushing down against the pickup cover and the other was popping out the back of the pickup. The effect of this was to, again, pull the flatwork off the coil, re-breaking the solder points. I resoldered again, glued again, let everything set again... This time the two pole pieces tried to join together in the middle of the pickup. In doing so they somehow ripped through the coil itself, making it read an open circuit.
Anybody know Nordstrand's phone number?
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You never know until you try. Sorry it didn't work out.
Substituting or adding neo magnets to an existing pickup might or might not sound good. But there are neo pickups out there that have had a following for years, e.g. Tom Anderson's. I would assume the circuits are designed from the ground up for neo magnets.
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You live, you learn. I was about 30 seconds away from firing up the dremel and installing some Precision pickups instead, but my girlfriend talked sense into me. All the basses I ever took the dremel to have been sold, typically at a significant financial loss...
I have some 'Duncan Designed' pickups on the way from the US. These are probably the exact same pickups as the stock ones I ruined. Some sellers advertise them as being Bullet bass pickups as well, but intended for 'import' Mustang basses (they are all imports here in the UK!!!). Hopefully these aren't made to the specs of the originals, which were a few millimeters shorter than the MIJ Mustang bass pickups. If they are then this necessitates a new pickguard, built to MIJ specs but with the pickup routes for original '60s US Mustang basses... I don't want to do down that route at all.
The biggest surprise was pulling the wiring harness out of this bass. Fender Japan used mini pots (250 k) and a 104/0.1 uF capacitor. That explains why the tone control had so much influence. Both the pickup and the control cavity are totally unshielded, and they didn't run a ground wire between the backs of the pots and the output jack. Lots of fiddly white wire, and the capacitor is actually wired in between the pots, which is a nod to vintage specs, right?
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I'm not sure about the vintage specs. IIRC Pilgrim has a vintage Mustang, you might check with him.
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Lots of fiddly white wire
If it's the same wire they use on the Squier series, get rid of it! I am aware that many Squier owners are modding their guitars into insanity, but given the number of Squiers I repaired the electronics are really bad. The pots are one thing, but those 'fiddly' wires (as well as the chinese selector switches) is the main problem.
I think they are made of magnet wire coated with correction fluid :sad:
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If I were you, I would also try to stick a piece of soft iron underneath the pickup halves (one piece for each half), you will get some oomph this way and maybe some interesting tone that you may like. That obviously will work only if the poles are visible from the underside of the pickup (so you can stick the iron to them), and you must stabilise it somehow, or else you might get a microphonic pickup.
Also, it is your duty to change the complete harness, especially if you use your pots and expect some reliability from your instrument. Throw those cheap pots, wire and jack to the trash and install some good quality components.
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Also, it is your duty to change the complete harness, especially if you use your pots and expect some reliability from your instrument. Throw those cheap pots, wire and jack to the trash and install some good quality components.
Have we established that this has the same electronics as a Squier? If so, I agree with you, but I would be surprised if the MIJ Mustang doesn't use better components.
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Have we established that this has the same electronics as a Squier? If so, I agree with you, but I would be surprised if the MIJ Mustang doesn't use better components.
My MIJ '51 Precision RI has small pots and an uninspiring SC pup. Wiring and jack are flimsy, too.
It's scheduled for a ThunderBucker rewound '68 Tele pup.
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If it's the same wire they use on the Squier series, get rid of it! I am aware that many Squier owners are modding their guitars into insanity, but given the number of Squiers I repaired the electronics are really bad. The pots are one thing, but those 'fiddly' wires (as well as the chinese selector switches) is the main problem.
Here is a photo of the stock wiring:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Meddled/image1_zps4id3najv.jpg)
This is my attempt at a rewire:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Meddled/image4_zps0xv7xa6f.jpg)
I will re-seat the black ground wires on the back of the tone pot. I used the cloth wire in the end, and I recycled the original capacitor because I liked what it did. The pots are CTS solid-shaft pots, so that I can use some period-correct knobs. I can never make Fender wiring look pretty, but it all works. The black ground wires between the pots and the jack might not be necessary, but it guarantees electrical continuity beyond the grace of everything being screwed to that plate. I used PVC insulation on the wee jumper on the volume pot to ground and on the exposed leg of the capacitor, somewhat unnecessarily.
Before:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Meddled/image2_zpsmidhi7kq.jpg)
After:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Meddled/image2_zpskndtm7o7.jpg)
Before:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Meddled/image3_zpsw65pl5wn.jpg)
After:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Meddled/image1_zpsr5hzdbjo.jpg)
And:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Meddled/image3_zpsgpxxvrch.jpg)
I dislike copper foil. Luckily this stuff cost me relatively little as I bought 'slug tape'. This stuff give paper cuts with ease, and I found that longer strips burled up and stuck to themselves when I removed the paper backing. Annoying when I had taken time measuring it all out. In the end the bass is about 50% measured foil and 50% rammed-in-and-made-to-fit foil. Because I didn't trust the adhesive to be conductive I soldered over every overlap I could find.
For reference this is the shim I made for this bass, which I feel it needed urgently when I first assembled it:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Meddled/image5_zpseytixvj4.jpg)
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That ought to take care of it. Is the noise reduced to a reasonable level now?
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I'm afraid I won't know until I get new pickups.
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Quick bump. Pickups arrived today! I epoxied the little neodymium button magnets to the back of the poles, and it sounds great. No electrical noise now. I can take both hands off the bass and hear nothing. Not even a wee 'pop' when I put my hands back on the instrument.
While my pickups were stalling in Heathrow I purchased a second set from a Squier Mustang. It will be interesting to see if these are the same design as the supposed Fender set.
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I'll be surprised if they're the exact same, but you never know.