The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: barend on October 24, 2008, 03:19:34 AM
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How would you describe the sound difference between an (for example) '68 and '74 EB3.
I mean the ones with the neck pickup close to the neck or away from the neck.
Is there much difference? and is the sound of the bridge pickup the same? and the overall sound?
I guess it sounds less muddy with the pickup away from the neck. But the shape of the bass is a little bit different and it is heavier I think, so maybe that changes the overall sound also.
I heard the soundclips on the Gibson site, but I can not make much of it.
Don't know why but lately I have gas for a 'newer' EB3. I already have an '68 one. I really like it.
Hope the gas goes away.
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Barend,
I'm sure Uwe will give a full review of the sound differences. One thing's or sure: Gibson made a lot of Mudbuckers and they seem to differ a lot over the years.
I have a '76 EB3 which sound FAT. I don't really like the looks if I compare it to a 60s one. A big body without the curves and as you said the pick up to the middle. Mine's from '76, it has a well repaired neck break and a bad repaired bodybreak but it still sounds nice. Maybe I want to get rid of it, so if you're interested.
The reason for that is my SG Reissue Bass. It has the sixties look, it's warm and fat and more usable because of the TB+ pick up. You can find them cheap too on eBay.
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Unless your preference is that largely middish Jack Bruce or Andy Fraser sound, the seventies sound is more versatile as pup position, maple neck and tweaking of the last generation mudbuckers make for a more attack-rich and distinct sound with still enough mudlevel ooomph to send a P Bass home crying to his mom and asking her if he shouldn't better become a banjo. The seventies sound has more treble and less overbearing mids, bit Ric'ish even though it's not yet as scooped. What you don't have with the seventies EBs is that fuzzy overdrive sound of the early sixties EBs (which many people die for) or the close to hilarious sublows (and nothing else) of the late sixties slothead era EBs. Radar Love was played with a seventies EB-3 or EB-3L, try getting that sound out of a sixties model.
Personally, I also think that the seventies EBs feel more like a bass as opposed to the guitar handling characteristics of the sixties models, but many people prefer the older models for just that.
Uwe
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...with still enough mudlevel ooomph to send a P Bass home crying to his mom and asking her if he shouldn't better become a banjo.
Uwe
:D
My 70s EB3 has a mahogany neck I think.
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Not if it has the middle pup, then it's maple. You should be able to see that the neck is three-ply like all maple necks by Gibson in the seventies (Grabbers and G-3s excepted, which were one piece) - a maho neck would be one piece.
Uwe
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What you don't have with the seventies EBs is that fuzzy overdrive sound of the early sixties EBs (which many people die for)
what do you mean exactly? my '68 doesn't have the fuzzy overdrive sound. Fuzzy on the neck or bridge pickup?
The bridge pickup on my EB-3 sounds rather clean (but very good, Fraser style) and the neck pickup sounds very muddy (too muddy for my taste). But it has the EB-0 mod. I am still not sure if I like that mod better than the oiginal sound. With the EB-0 mod the neck pickup becomes too muddy and not useful when I use the neck pickup solo. Without the EB-0 mod the neck pickup was also useful when soloed.
Now I use the neck pickup only to dial in little bit more bass to the neck pickup, but only very little.
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The early sixties EBs have a middish bark in neck pup mode to them, not so much sublows in fact. Gibson only went overboard with the "brown frequencies" in the late sixties and especially the slotheads.
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The early sixties EBs have a middish bark in neck pup mode to them, not so much sublows in fact. Gibson only went overboard with the "brown frequencies" in the late sixties and especially the slotheads.
I don't think there's any difference in the mudbuckers over the years until you get to the redesign in the mid-70s. There is a difference in sound between the early 60s and the slotheads. Not sure why, but the open headstock, nylon saddle bridge and narrower-but-deeper neck could all have affected it.
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Not if it has the middle pup, then it's maple. You should be able to see that the neck is three-ply like all maple necks by Gibson in the seventies (Grabbers and G-3s excepted, which were one piece) - a maho neck would be one piece.
Uwe
Not sure if that is what you mean, but not all mahogany Gibson necks are one piece...
Maybe the EB necks are, but the Les Paul Bass necks are three piece.
Uwe's edit: You're right, there are three piece maho necks, even with some EB basses as others have rightly pointed out in this thread. :-[
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my Les Paul Bass neck is one piece.all 'hog
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split headstock EBs had a three-piece mahogany neck
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split headstock EBs had a three-piece mahogany neck
Agreed.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/davepix/Basses/EB0Lneck-1.jpg)
You can see the difference in grain on the 72 and later EBs, it's easy enough to tell maple from mahogany.
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The early sixties EBs have a middish bark in neck pup mode to them, not so much sublows in fact.
do you think this 'bark' is gone when you do the EB-0 mod? I am thinking of reversing the mod to the original wiring, as it was before. The EB-0 mod only results in mud and way too much lows and too muffled. But I am not sure though.
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What you don't have with the seventies EBs is that fuzzy overdrive sound of the early sixties EBs (which many people die for) or the close to hilarious sublows (and nothing else) of the late sixties slothead era EBs.
Uwe
I could level a building with my slothead EB-3 with the neck pickup soloed.
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do you think this 'bark' is gone when you do the EB-0 mod? I am thinking of reversing the mod to the original wiring, as it was before. The EB-0 mod only results in mud and way too much lows and too muffled. But I am not sure though.
Not sure what the "EB-0"-mod is. Are all EB-0s treble- and mid-choked like EB-2s are while EB-3s in mudbucker only mode aren't? I've heard of that theory, but have never ever checked it. Certainly, my late sixties Slothead EB-0s do not sound more muffled in highs and mids than my Slothead EB-3. And likewise my maple neck seventies EB-0 does not sound darker than its EB-3L cousin from the same era in neck pup only mode.
If your EB-0 is indeed choked like an EB-2, then unleashing the full frequency range of the mudbucker will work wonders.
Uwe
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By 'EB-0' mod I mean that I have put the tonechoke out of the circuit of my EB3 (as suggested by some on the other forum). Some say that with the original wiring the tonechoke is still in the circuit even if you use the position with the neckpickup solo (where the tonechoke shouldn't be heard according to the description of the varitoneswitch). So if you remove the tonechoke from the circuit you will hear the neck pickup exactly the same as it would sound on an EB-0. Resulting in more bass on the neck pickup
HOWEVER: I think the neck pickup with the mod has much more bass than the original wiring but it also has a lot less treble and therefore it sounds too muddy and muffled (no definition at all). I am not sure if a real EB-0 sounds like that.
I am also not sure if you lose the middish bark what you were talking about when you do the mod.
Hope anyone can give me the answer. Who has done the EB-0 mod on their EB-3?
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Let me repeat this to check whether I really understand: You put the tonechoke out of the circuit of your EB-3 and now varitone pos 1 (mudbucker only) sounds different, ie has more bass, but less treble and mids? That would indeed indicate it was choked, but I'm not sure all EB-3s are wired that way, I always thought the mudbucker in pos 1 is unchoked, unadulterated.
With an EB-2, taking out the choke makes the mudbucker sound much more raw, middish and therefore audible. You even hear a glimps of treble. I guess what they were trying to achieve with choking away mids and what little presence there was initially was a sound emulating a doublebass. Except that a doublebass sound has never been especially audible in amplified music, especially not with the bass amplification and recording technology back then.
Uwe
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Let me repeat this to check whether I really understand: You put the tonechoke out of the circuit of your EB-3 and now varitone pos 1 (mudbucker only) sounds different, ie has more bass, but less treble and mids? That would indeed indicate it was choked, but I'm not sure all EB-3s are wired that way, I always thought the mudbucker in pos 1 is unchoked, unadulterated.
Yes, only I am talking about position 4 of the varitoneswitch
This is the way it should be on a stock EB-3:
varitone position 1= neck pickup with choke
varitone position 4= neck pickup unchoked
(on a later 70's EB3 it is the other way around, but I am talking about a '68 one)
now with the mod on my bass varitone pos 1 and 4 sound exactly the same, the sound is that of the old position 1, so very muffled and muddy
That is very strange because the tone choke is out of the circuit. You would expect it to be less muffled(?).
But many people on the other forum said that even with position 4 the tonechoke is still in the circuit (the description of the varitoneswitch says it is unchoked but it not completely unchoked) and the sound is different then an EB-0.
If you remove the tonechoke out of the circuit the sound of the neck pickup solo should be the same as an EB-0.
Now I am a little bit confused about what the tonechoke actualy does.
And I am not sure anymore if my bass is wired correctly for the EB-0 mod.
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Not to make this even more confusing, but....... ;D
Keep in mind that "choked" or "baritone" sound refers to that nasal, devoid-of-bass tone that the EB-2s/Rivolis made famous. Same goes for the EB-3 - the filtering portion of the circuit is basically identical.
On the series-1 EB-3s, I've seen position one on the varitone referenced to as "tone choked", and that is a bit of a misnomer becuase it in fact isn't the choked sound. The choked/baritone sound of the mudbucker comes in on positions three and four. Position one is supposed to be unchoked wide-open sound of the neck pickup, but it is plagued by the same residual filtering effect that the EB-2s suffer from (http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=287.0). The filter remains in the circuit, and in this mode has the side effect of rolling off the high frequencies - creating that thunderous low-hovering-cloud bass tone that lacks high frequency definition. The circuit is here (http://www.flyguitars.com/gibson/bass/EB3_schematic.php) for reference, and I'm assuming that the left-most throw on the switch as drawn is position one (since it wasn't labeled).
Uwe brought the EB-2 residual filtering issue to everyone's attention back at the 'pit. Prior to that, I always just assumed that absurd bottom-dwelling boooooommmmmm was in fact the "real" sound of the mudbucker. What a surprise to hear what was actually hiding in there! I've also heard folks say they prefer the sound of the EB-0 over the EB-3. I'm thinking that the reason for this is the fact that the EB-0 does not have any of this choke/residual-filtering business going on. It inherently has the full-range sound as a result - which you can't get on an EB-3 without rewiring it.
...and just to clarify a bit further: what I mean by "full-range" is the sound of that neck pickup without the nasal choked sound, and without the residual lowpass filtering effect of position one rolling off the high frequencies. The full-range sound retains the bass that will level buildings, as Bob put it, but it also contains the upper mids and highs needed to give some bite to the sound.
I rewired my '66 EB-2D to get into the unfiltered mudbucker sound. I later got a '69 EB-3, and since I tend to run position three a lot on that bass, I just left well enough alone. I then bought a '69 EB-0, and I use that for the unfiltered mud sound. In fact, I did some fun wiring mods on that one and made some soundclips so you might be able to hear what an EB-0 sounds like in comparison to your own EB-3. The clips are in this post (http://www.vintageguitars.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1810&highlight=eb0).
If you made it to this point - I hope that helped!(?) :bored: :) Gibson really had some eccentric wiring goin' on in their old basses, eh?
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One other thing I should mention... the solution I've learned to use for dealing with the extreme bass output of position one on an EB-3, an EB-0, an EB-2D in "unchoked" mode, and any mod that opens up the full range output of the mudbucker is to use an EQ to notch out the subsonic frequencies. I think it was Granny who suggested this, and it has worked very well for me.
I use SVT cabs with 10" drivers and no horns, and without the EQ notch on the ~30Hz frequencies, the speaker excursion was (I think) adversely impacting the rendering of the higher frequencies. By cutting these sub-lows, the speakers stopped flapping like mad and seem to have a fighting chance now :) It worked quite well for me.
Of course, if you have a higher-tech amp rig than I do, or cabs with 15-18s - well that might help too with taming the beast!
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here is the wiring on my EB3. The guitar tech took the dark green wire from the choke (it is not attached to anything now).
Can someone check if this wiring is resulting indeed in the EB-0 mod. As I said I have the same sound now on varitone pos 1 and 4, so I guess this the unchoked sound? since the green wire isn't attached to anything.
The sounds lacks defintion though, it sounds more like the original sound of the old position 1, and it also sounds much louder than the bridge pickup. I have the feeling that the wiring is not right.
I always thought that on a stock EB-3 (series 1) the muffled sound (varitone 1) is the choked sound and that the sound of position 4 is the unchoked sound. But as Chromium said it is the other way around. What I want is the full bloom EB-0 sound from the neck pickup.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e306/barendtromp/S5001121.jpg)
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This is interesting and you live and learn:
After reading this thread I tested my slothead EB-0 and my slothead EB-3 again and what I had always thought was the dif between D'Addario rounds on the 0 and TI flats on the 3 transpired at closer listening to be indeed the difference between an unchoked and a choked in highs and mids sound. I did the same thing with my 72/73ish maple neck EB-0 and the same era maple neck EB-3L. There is no such difference there, so assuming the EB-3L is stock wired, they changed the set up in later years.
It seems a logic explanation to me why people like Jack Bruce and Andy Fraser did not use the "allegedly unchoked" mudbucker solo mode on their instruments (I always wondered about that, with their amps at the right settings they could have elicited enough mids and treble from the mudbucker for their middish sounds - it just wouldn't have given them the same brawny sound as on an EB-0.
Who'd have thought!
Uwe
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I did the same thing with my 72/73ish maple neck EB-0 and the same era maple neck EB-3L. There is no such difference there, so assuming the EB-3L is stock wired, they changed the set up in later years.
I knew there was a resaon that, despite the fact that EBs are already dominant in my tribe, I still lust for a 70s EB-3! I always assumed the wiring stayed the same, and the maple construction contributed to the extra clarity/focus (well it probably still does to some degree, but in looking at the wiring - it is indeed different)
The wiring (http://www.flyguitars.com/gibson/bass/EB3_schematic2.php) confirms what your ears are telling you. The choke is most definitely out of the circuit on positions 1-3, and only is applied to the neck pickup on position 4. The way it is wired prevents that whole "side-effect filtering" thing from happening.
here is the wiring on my EB3. The guitar tech took the dark green wire from the choke (it is not attached to anything now).
Can someone check if this wiring is resulting indeed in the EB-0 mod.
What your tech did was remove the choke from the circuit, and as a result also the filter's path to ground - thereby taking the filter out of the circuit. This should have resulted in position one still having tons of bass, but with upper mids and highs restored (the side-effect lowpass filtering on the neck pickup is now gone), and position four should not sound as bony as it did before, but rather exactly like position one (the choke effect is now gone too). There is still a resistor inline on the neck pickup, but I don't believe that will have a marked effect on the tone. Your position one and four should now sound a lot like the first sample in my EB-0 sound clips (http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB0_Modification.mp3).
What you did is electrically identical to the initial approach I took in modding my EB-2D. I removed the bridge, and desoldered the ground lead from atop the choke (which is hiding under the bridge of the EB-2D). I had the wide-open neck pickup sound at that point (no more residual lowpass filter), at the sacrifice of the choked/baritone sound.
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb2mod/choke-wire-1.jpg)
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What your tech did was remove the choke from the circuit, and as a result also the filter's path to ground - thereby taking the filter out of the circuit. This should have resulted in position one still having tons of bass, but with upper mids and highs restored (the side-effect lowpass filtering on the neck pickup is now gone), and position four should not sound as bony as it did before, but rather exactly like position one (the choke effect is now gone too). There is still a resistor inline on the neck pickup, but I don't believe that will have a marked effect on the tone.
So the mod is done correctly? I want to be absolutely sure, since I don't know much about electronics.
As you said the sound of pos 1 and 4 is exactly the same. But the sound lacks highs and mid and is not as clear as on your sound clip. Also it is much louder than before. Much louder than the bridge pickup. I am thinking about restoring the original wiring. But I am still not sure.
(BTW that resistor is already removed)
One more question: does the choke in the original wiring effect in any way the bridge pickup? In other words did the mod also change the sound of the bridge pickup or only yhe neck pickup.
I really like the sound of the bridge pickup now and I don't want to spoil that if I change it back to the original wiring.
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So the mod is done correctly? I want to be absolutely sure, since I don't know much about electronics.
As you said the sound of pos 1 and 4 is exactly the same. But the sound lacks highs and mid and is not as clear as on your sound clip. Also it is much louder than before. Much louder than the bridge pickup. I am thinking about restoring the original wiring. But I am still not sure.
(BTW that resistor is already removed)
It looks like the mod was done correctly, at least from what I can tell from your pic. It looks like the tech removed the inductor's (choke's) green wire from the rotary switch, covered it with a piece of heat shrink tubing to insulate the bare wire, and tucked it back in there.
I tried this on my own EB-3 tonight, but instead of cutting the green wire (why do I feel like we are trying to diffuse a bomb ;D ), it was faster and less intrusive for me to remove the black wire from the inductor's grounded enclosure:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb3/DSCF0065.jpg)
That should yield the same end result as the mod on your bass - severing the inductor's path to ground, thereby eliminating any filtering of the neck pickup.
I made a sound clip of the results so you can hear what the difference was on my bass:
http://www.hillscloud.com/music/eb3-samples.mp3 (http://www.hillscloud.com/music/eb3-samples.mp3)
The clip repeats the same pattern, which was played in the same position (fingerstyle over the neck pickup) and with the same dynamics in each iteration. I did not normalize the levels between each setting - so watch out for your speakers! This way you can fully appreciate the volume differences in each mode.
The sounds you hear in the clip are in this order:
1. Original position 4 - "choked" or "baritone" sound of the neck pickup
2. Original position 1 - unchoked neck pickup, with residual lowpass filtering effect of the choke circuit rolling off the upper mids and highs
3. Modified position 4 - neck pickup in full glory. Note the extra mids and highs
4. Modified position 1 - ditto
One thing that I noticed when playing the bass thru my amp was that there is a very subtle difference between position 1 and 4 after the mod. Both had the same frequency response, but position 1 was a bit quieter on my bass - and I think that might be due to that resistor remaining inline with the neck pickup. Looking back at the schematic, position 4 opens up an alternate path around that resistor.
How does your bass sound in comparison to those sound clips?
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thanks, that is exactly what I needed to hear!
comparing my bass to your soundclip:
in both positions my bass sounds like the second phrase (so like original position 1, so muffled, loud and not clear at all)
How is that possible? because the choke is out of the circuit. And what can I do?
I really like the sound of the clips 3 and 4 that you have made. I want the neck pickup to sound like that!
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All I can say is that my unleashed 1968 EB-2 sounds like modified position 4 too and that that sound is indeed much louder than either the baritone or the original (teble- and mid-)choked sounds of my EB-2.
And I hear a dif in the example betwwen modified pos 1 and modified pos 4 too, latter is even more unleashed.
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How is that possible? because the choke is out of the circuit.
Is it for sure? Here's your photo, but enhanced a bit:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb3/S5001121.jpg)
Refresh my memory again- was the wire that the blue arrow points to totally disconnected from the lug that the green arrow points to? Can you actually pull that wire free and see that it is no longer connected to anything? If that wire isn't hooked up, I would think the mod would work fine. We may need to look elsewhere in the circuit.
I'm a bit crosseyed from a days worth of meetings, but I'll catch my second wind here in a little while and have another look at the rest of your wiring. Its hard to see everything that is going on in there, but it looked normal/original on my first pass - with exception of that extra resistor going to the center lug of the bridge pickup's volume pot. That's not original, but being that its on the bridge pickup I wasn't thinking it would cause this other mod not to work. Do you know the history on why that is there?
Here's a pic of my 68/69 EB-3's guts for comparison:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb3/DSCF0052.jpg)
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Chromium, thanks for finding the time to help me! I really appreciate it.
I have just checked it: the green wire isn't attached to anything. It is loose at the end.
About the resistor (you are talking about the resistor on the red wire right?): the guitar tech put it there (without asking me) because he thought you couldn't hear the difference between pos 2 and 3 of the varitone switch. He put it there to make the bridge pickup softer so there would be a better balance between the pickups. But I told him afterwards to remove it again, so it is not there anymore.
In your post you talked about some residual lowpass filtering of the choke. Is it possible that somehow the filtering is still active? Sounds like it.
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About the resistor (you are talking about the resistor on the red wire right?): the guitar tech put it there (without asking me) because he thought you couldn't hear the difference between pos 2 and 3 of the varitone switch. He put it there to make the bridge pickup softer so there would be a better balance between the pickups. But I told him afterwards to remove it again, so it is not there anymore.
Ah -ok. Yeah that is the one I was talking about - no worries there, then.
I have just checked it: the green wire isn't attached to anything. It is loose at the end.
In your post you talked about some residual lowpass filtering of the choke. Is it possible that somehow the filtering is still active? Sounds like it.
It certainly does sound like it from your description, and comparison to my audio samples. But I have to admit I'm surprised, and kind of at a loss, what with the choke being disconnected and all. That really should do it. ??? :-\
I'll look over your wiring a bit closer and get back to you...
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Barend- could you please post an updated shot of your circuit, after that resistor was removed? That same point of view would work great.
The only thing that stood out to me so far is that the tech also ran a short wire (teal blue color) to bypass that other (original) resistor that is part of the choke filter. That should be fine, and it should serve to rectify that volume disparity that I mentioned between position one and four with the mod in place. I just want to make sure that there is nothing else different in there since it was worked on last. Everything else in that pic looks to be in its proper place so far...
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb3-bomb-squad.jpg)
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He didn't tell me about a blue wire only about the green one. So I don't think the guitar tech did it. But you'll never know.
The only thing he did last time is that he removed that resistor from the red wire and soldered it back the way it was. I will post a picture tommorow.
Also I want to post a soundclip. I know how to make a clip and everything but I don't know how to post it like Chromium did. If someone can explain that to me I will post the soundclip tomorrow or saturday.
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I just wanted to mention that teal blue wire so you know its there - and not part of the original circuit. This is the wire I'm talking about (the white arrow):
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb3/S5001121-1.jpg)
If you did ever want to revert back to stock behavior, just make a mental note that it would need to come out. For this mod you are wanting, however, it's ok to leave it - and maybe even desirable - as it will make position 1 and 4 behavior truly identical (unlike my test, with the volume difference). That's the only reason I assumed the tech might have been responsible for it - it's actually a good idea for this purpose.
I'll post your sound clip on my web server if you want to email it to me.
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ok, thanks for pointing out that green wire, didn't know that. What will this wire do (change) compared to the original wiring? because when I bought the bass it sounded like the original wiring.
I will mail you the soundclips tomorrow or maybe tonight if I can find the time.
Thanks
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What will this wire do (change) compared to the original wiring? because when I bought the bass it sounded like the original wiring.
I drew this on a schematic, but hopefully to clarify rather than confuse - so bear with me! :)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb3/EB3schematic-barend-mod.jpg)
The three components in that grey highlighted area work together as a filter for the neck pickup, to remove portions of its sound (i.e. lows, highs, etc...). The resistor serves to set the frequency point at which the filter begins to do its job. When that point is reached, frequencies above it (as example) will travel down thru the capacitor and choke to ground. Think of ground as the trash can. From a reference I have, it looks like if you lower the value of that resistor, the point at which the filter begins to work moves up in frequency range.
I drew the blue/green wire on that diagram. It just bridges the circuit right across that resistor - making it as though the resistor is not there at all. This lower resistance in the circuit that results would change (raise) the filter point - giving it a different sound than stock (likely more open, and less muddy in the position one "unchoked but filtered" mode - so probably not a bad thing, just different than stock behavior).
Also note that the goal of this whole mod is to cut one end of that inductor/choke - so frequencies can't get thrown into the "trash can" at all. This is why I'm having a hard time - because you did that, and it still filtering. So something somewhere in that circuit is different and I'm just not seeing it - but we'll figure it out ;)
No rush on that stuff, Barend. I'll mainly just want to see the pic update to make sure there is not something in the circuit's present state that would explain what currently has me mystified ???
And if anybody else see's sumpthin I'm missing... by all means jump in! 8)
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Man that is one complicated control circuit, gives me a headache trying to figure it out, are the newer ones (69-70) wired like this?
Also has any one bypassed the resistor, open the filter cap, bypassed the volume control cap and bypassed the choke at the same time? The way it is drawn it looks like that would be the neck pickup straight with no filters. I also don't see the neck pickup tone control in this circuit.
A resistor in series is a high pass, a cap in parallel is a high cut and a choke in parallel should be a low cut.
I think the baritone sound on these basses is possible the most useless tone I have ever heard in a bass. I would like to try this but don't want to hack up my bass.
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Below is my new picture and also some soundsamples (they will come soon, because Chromium will handle the samples here) of all position of the varitone switch:
I recorded the same bass line directly into my soundcard with no EQ.
This is how you hear it:
1) varitone 4
2) varitone 1 (I can't hear any difference with varitone 4)
3) varitone 2 (bridge pickup solo)
4) varitone 3 (both pickups) I have set the bridge pickup volume at 9, and the neck pickup volume at 10. I mostly use the bridge pickup volume to dial in some extra bass (lower you set the volume of the bridge pickup the louder the neck pickup will be). If you set it lower than 9 it will be again too much bass.
Normally when I play on an amp I notice that there is a big volume difference going from the neck pickup solo to bridge pickup solo (neck pickup is much louder). But on the recording the difference is not that great. Only beware of your speaker because there is so much more (too much) bass with the neck pickup solo.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e306/barendtromp/S5001236.jpg)
as you can see on the picture I took out the large green wire. Just to show you that it is not connected.
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Man that is one complicated control circuit, gives me a headache trying to figure it out, are the newer ones (69-70) wired like this?
...I also don't see the neck pickup tone control in this circuit.
Yeah no kidding. I think it's almost complicated for the sake of being complicated! As if a short scale mahogany bass with bridge of questionable design and a monster neck pickup from hell isn't enough to send potential customers lunging en masse towards the Fender display... :P A normal VTVT+toggle setup probably would have done the job just fine on these.
The tone control is hiding on the schematic over by the neck pickup (labeled with "F.B." - presumable mening "fingerboard"). I believe your bass would have the same setup and Barend's and mine. The EB-3s that followed had a slightly different (and equally complicated) circuit.
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Barend-
Thanks for the updated picture and the great sound clip! I posted your clip here:
http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB3testBarend.mp3 (http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB3testBarend.mp3)
Well... I have an idea of what is going on now. That's the good news, the bad news is that it is probably not the answer you want to hear. I think your bass is "bypassed", and my hypothesis as to why your bass is just ever so slightly "bassier" than mine is difference in the impedance of your mudbucker compared to mine.
I could not find any discrepancies in looking at your wiring. There are a couple places I can't see (under the resistor and cap over the varitone, for example) but in those places, the wires going in seem to have the right trajectories. It is probably a safe bet all is OK under there... and your choke is *definitely* out of the circuit, with that green wire loose.
My theory is this - that your neck pickup is wound slightly hotter than mine, thus producing a slightly "boomier" tone. I can hear the upper mids and highs in your sound - which I don't think would be there if you wired it back stock. My neck pickup measures 29K, which is on the lower side for the behemoth mudbucker. I bet if you measured your pickup, it might fall into the low 30K range, which seems common for these.
You could always validate this theory by temporarily hooking that green wire back up to the switch lug from which it came (even without soldering it) just to hear the difference first hand. It may be, with that non-original blue/green bypass wire in place that we talked about earlier, that there just wasn't much filtering going on in position one to begin with! ... and the difference after the mod wasn't as drastic as it was on mine. It would be very interesting to hear the effects side-by-side if you did end up trying this.
If any other readers are still here after all this troubleshooting :), please chime in with your thoughts too! Listen to these clips to compare the sounds.
Here again is my bass, with 1) original position 1, and 2) modified/bypassed position 1:
http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB3testChromium-pos1mod.mp3 (http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB3testChromium-pos1mod.mp3)
...and this is Barend's modified/bypassed position 1:
http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB3testBarend-pos1mod.mp3 (http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB3testBarend-pos1mod.mp3)
I think Barend's sample sounds more like my second "modified/bypassed" sample (with the upper mids and highs), but with ever so slightly more bass -like a hotter mudbucker might yield. What do you think??
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Well... I have an idea of what is going on now. That's the good news, the bad news is that it is probably not the answer you want to hear. I think your bass is "bypassed", and my hypothesis as to why your bass is just ever so slightly "bassier" than mine is difference in the impedance of your mudbucker compared to mine.
You could always validate this theory by temporarily hooking that green wire back up to the switch lug from which it came (even without soldering it) just to hear the difference first hand.
Chromium, thanks for taking the time to put up the mp3's!
I think my bass sounds somewhere halfway between your original sound and your bypassed sound! your bypassed sound is much clearer (more highs and mids) than mine, I like that clearer sound.
two more questions:
-how do I hook the green wire back up to the original position, where exactly do I have to hook it? And does the added small blue-green does have effect to this, or doesn´t it matter. Once I know that I will make some new soundsamples. That might also be interesting for the rest of the EB3 fans who are still reading this topic...if any is still around here.
-did the mod effect in any way the bridge pickup? I like the sound of the bridge pickup as it is now.
I am thinking of reversing the mod but I don't want to spoil the sound of the bridge pickup.
I would be nice if I could compare the sound with that of the original wiring.
What I remember from the sound before the mod is that the baritone sound of varitone position 4 was pretty useful and also had a fair amount of bass but it was much clearer. Position 1 was even more muddy (and even louder) than now and not useful at all.
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I think Barend's sample sounds more like my second "modified/bypassed" sample (with the upper mids and highs), but with ever so slightly more bass -like a hotter mudbucker might yield. What do you think??
I haven't been following the circuit discussion but I agree with your opinion that his sound sample sounds more like your second sample.
I don't think the cause is necessarily a hotter wind. In a pickup that overwound it's hard to believe the difference between 29K and maybe 30-31K would account for a noticeable difference. There could be other variables, even just the difference between two different necks.
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I don't think the cause is necessarily a hotter wind. In a pickup that overwound it's hard to believe the difference between 29K and maybe 30-31K would account for a noticeable difference. There could be other variables, even just the difference between two different necks.
Good point on the impedance- I haven't compared enough pickups side-by-side like that to know, so that's a total assumption on my part. You also raise an interesting consideration with the potential construction differences. My '69 EB-3 has the earlier-style contruction, with the thin, tapered neck joint:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/basses-0407/DSCF0064.jpg)
Is your's like that too Barend? or does it have the later, thicker heel? I s'pose a combination of things like this could result in slightly difference sonic characteristics.
-how do I hook the green wire back up to the original position, where exactly do I have to hook it? And does the added small blue-green does have effect to this, or doesn´t it matter.
The green wire from the choke actually spans/bridges two switch lugs - like this:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb3/S5001121-1-1.jpg)
The added blue/green wire (white arrow) would need to come out, to make it truly stock. If you can unsolder one side of it, that would do the trick for a temporary test. If you don't have a soldering iron (or friend with one), I'd probably just skip that for the time being, though. Hate to recommend that you try to attempt the intrusive stuff, unless you are very comfortable with it!
-did the mod effect in any way the bridge pickup? I like the sound of the bridge pickup as it is now.
I am thinking of reversing the mod but I don't want to spoil the sound of the bridge pickup.
Looking at the schematic, it shouldn't have any effect on the bridge pickup. You could always record some before/after tests of position two to confirm this.
I think your bass sounds sweet, and it suits you playing well! Having heard your tracks in the past on Myspace, I was wondering how well a plodding ol' EB would fit in, but it sounded good!
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Barend-
One other note of caution: be very careful moving wires around in there. When I was inspecting my bass to help you in this thread, I moved a wire aside, and it popped right off the varitone switch! It wasn't soldered on there well to begin with, and gave way when I moved it. No biggie, becuase I could fix it easily.
My EB-2D had a real rats nest of a wiring harness in it too. Not to offend anybody who might have worked for Gibson in this capacity - but dayum! ??? :o Hope whoever wired these up isn't building aircraft today ;D
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This is a picture of the neck joint...I think it is the same as on your bass, but I am not sure.
I still think it is strange that something other than the electronics can add so much more bass to your sound.
I also found a picture of how it was before I brought it to the guitar tech for the mod. Now I see that he has added the small blue green wire without telling me. I also added that picture.
I will try to hook up the big green wire tomorrow and leave the little green wire for know. Also I will try to make some new soundsamples.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e306/barendtromp/S5001076.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e306/barendtromp/a869_1.jpg)
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ok, here we are again with some brandnew samples (Chromium will handle the samples again):
What I did is hook the big green wire up (without soldering). I left the little green/blue wire as it is.
Here is how you hear the samples:
1) varitone 1: hooked (original)
2) varitone 1: unhooked (mod)
3) varitone 4: hooked
4) varitone 4: unhooked
as you can hear the change from varitone 1 (hooked) to varitone 1 (unhooked) isn't as huge as on your bass. Also my varitone 4 (hooked) sounds more full and bassy than yours.....I still think it is very strange.
What I don't understand is how the little green wire will change the sound if I would remove it? any idea how it will affect the sound?
Also you told me to hook the big green wire it to two lugs (?)...see quote below. I hooked it to only one. It didn't matter to which of the two that you have pointed out. In both cases the (hooked) sound was the same.
The green wire from the choke actually spans/bridges two switch lugs - like this:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb3/S5001121-1-1.jpg)
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ok, here we are again with some brandnew samples (Chromium will handle the samples again):
What I did is hook the big green wire up (without soldering). I left the little green/blue wire as it is.
Here is how you hear the samples:
1) varitone 1: hooked (original)
2) varitone 1: unhooked (mod)
3) varitone 4: hooked
4) varitone 4: unhooked
as you can hear the change from varitone 1 (hooked) to varitone 1 (unhooked) isn't as huge as on your bass. Also my varitone 4 (hooked) sounds more full and bassy than yours.....I still think it is very strange.
Here is Barend's latest soundclip - comparing the before-and-after effects of his "choke bypass" modification:
http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB3testBarend-bluewire.mp3 (http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB3testBarend-bluewire.mp3)
What I don't understand is how the little green wire will change the sound if I would remove it? any idea how it will affect the sound?
I knew I left the back cover off my bass for a reason! ;D
I rigged up my bass temporarily with a wire to approximate the one your tech added to your bass (thus bypassing that 220K resistor in the filter), and recorded before and after samples so you can hear the effect of it. I will call this the "bluewire" mod from here forward.
The samples are in this order:
1) Position 1 - Stock
2) Position 1 - The "bluewire" mod
3) Position 4 - Stock
4) Position 4 - The "bluewire" mod
http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB3testChromium-bluewire.mp3 (http://www.hillscloud.com/music/EB3testChromium-bluewire.mp3)
You can hear how leaving that wire in place will sort of "open up" position one - giving you a broader frequency response and less attenuation of the mudbucker's signal. Position four still sounds weedy and thin on my bass, but you can hear how the choke filter's frequency shifts a bit with that filter resistor bypassed.
So now we have the bluewire mod! Thank your tech for that one. Pretty sure he put that in your bass to make positions one and four behave equally with the "choke bypass" mod in place. But it certainly has a cool effect all of its own on a stock EB-3! I like the sound of my bass with that mod, so I might end up making that a permanent fixture. 8)
Once again, this is the "bluewire" mod:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb3/S5001121-1.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb3/EB3schematic-barend-mod.jpg)
Also you told me to hook the big green wire it to two lugs (?)...see quote below. I hooked it to only one. It didn't matter to which of the two that you have pointed out. In both cases the (hooked) sound was the same.
In reference to your question about the choke's green wire spanning both pins on the varitone: you can connect it to just one pin, but make sure there is some other wire connecting those two pins on the switch if that is the case. The schematic calls for that, and it makes it so the choke engages on positions 3 *and* 4.
None of this really serves to clear up the issue concerning the sound differences between our apparently similarly-wired basses, but I wouldn't discount lots of potential factors that might contribute to subtle variations in sound:
- Differing setups of our basses
- String brands/types/gauge
- Subtle variations in our pickups (?)
- Subtle variations in construction (your's has the later neck joint, mine the earlier)
- Slight differences in electronic component values/tolerances (choke, resistor, cap, etc..)
- I've been recording thru an ancient Alembic F-2B preamp (presumably set flat) into an M-Audio 1814, and you have recorded direct into your sound card
- ?? other stuff ??
Each of these factors on their own may not account for much, but in aggregate they might have a marked effect on the sounds of our basses!
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like that name "blue wire mod"! you can hear the difference. Position 1 sounds less muddy and position 4 sounds a little bit different too (although a subte difference).
But with this mod you can't have the "EB-O mod" (?). I mean if you still want the original (or blue wired) position 4 sound...I mean the best of both worlds.
One more question. I noticed that with the original wiring the bridge pickup (position 2) has much more volume than the neck pickup (position 4). Is that also so on your bass? With the EB-O mod is the other way around: position 2 has less volume than position 4.
Position 1 on the original wiring is way too loud.
]
In reference to your question about the choke's green wire spanning both pins on the varitone: you can connect it to just one pin, but make sure there is some other wire connecting those two pins on the switch if that is the case. The schematic calls for that, and it makes it so the choke engages on positions 3 *and* 4.
I noticed that position 3 behaved different with the hooked (original wiring) and the unhooked (mod) wiring.
I think that with only connecting the big green wire to one pin (doesn't matter which one) it behaved like stock. You still have the choked sound also on position 3. So you don't hear much difference with pos 2 and 3 when all volumes are at 10. With the EB-O mod you have a more bassy sounding position 3. You hear the difference when all volumes are set to 10.
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Well, my take:
I guess you have to split the yellow cable in two, solder one half to the red cap for trebly bass and solder the other half to a bridge stud for more bassy highs. Unhook the cap from the mod and bypass it with a push pull switch at the volute. Then use the second pin of the five way switch and connect it to the green and the red wire and bypass that with a unhooked chrome pick up cover. Then shuffle the rocker switch into the little black panel of the inner switch and hook it up through some new wires to a cable television receiver and overrule the 500K pot.
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that's such an elegant solution, Chris! why didn't you chime in earlier??
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Chris - that's genius! You can play Green Onions and pickup re-runs of Matlock at the same time
Wait a minute... I think I've seen that mod before!
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/5qQx2lXtrxwP.jpg)
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;)
Talking about Green Onions. I have tickets for Booker T. & the MGs in Holland next year. First time in thirty years they visit us!
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Or you can just buy an EB-0, wire the pickup direct to the jack, and use a one foot long cable to reduce capacitance. All your problems solved, though it does slightly limit your stage moves. :P
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Or you can just buy an EB-0, wire the pickup direct to the jack, and use a one foot long cable to reduce capacitance. All your problems solved, though it does slightly limit your stage moves. :P
That would call for some serious Robert Fripp stage antics!
Just so you know, I'm compiling all of this technical data into a book that will be available later this year. I hope you all will buy a copy, because I want to make it into Oprah's book club with record bestseller sales!
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/ks_book2.jpg)
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can we pre-order? ;D
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That'll be a best seller! All housewives will buy one and buy an EB0 or EB3 too. Gibson will be so popular due to Oprah and those housewives, they come up with several reissues and new models.
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Go for it! :mrgreen: An Oprah best seller would be a sure-fire way to get Henry J's attention focused on increasing his bass sales.
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Is that a sluthead I see pictured there?
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It seems to be suffering from limited access to the upper frets.
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Oh no! Rubber reacts with nitro, doesn't it?! Damn- that's gonna leave a mark...
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:) I can understand this reaction....maybe we were too serious with our EB3 experiments, but I have learned a lot about my EB3 and the wiring from these post. I am glad I have found this forum for this reason and other things I will learn from reading the posts.
I want to thank Chromium again for his time and good insights!
I end with with a quote of myself, maybe some other EB3 owners can jump in and answer this question.
One more question. I noticed that with the original wiring the bridge pickup (position 2) has much more volume than the neck pickup (position 4). Is that also so on your bass? With the EB-O mod is the other way around: position 2 has less volume than position 4.
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:) I can understand this reaction....maybe we were too serious with our EB3 experiments, but I have learned a lot about my EB3 and the wiring from these post. I am glad I have found this forum for this reason and other things I will learn from reading the posts.
I want to thank Chromium again for his time and good insights!
I end with with a quote of myself, maybe some other EB3 owners can jump in and answer this question:
One more question. I noticed that with the original wiring the bridge pickup (position 2) has much more volume than the neck pickup (position 4). Is that also so on your bass? With the EB-O mod is the other way around: position 2 has less volume than position 4.
Hey Barend- no problem. I enjoy tearing into these kooky old beasts, and I had not done this yet with the EB-3. I'm still amazed how differently voiced our two EBs seem to be - especially in their "choked" regions! You have the Barry White of EB-3s! Makes me wonder if anyone who has more than one of these buggers notices any significant differences in sound between specimens!?
And yes, on my stock/original bass, 2 (bridge) is louder than 4 (choked mud). Position 4 chokes the dickens out of the mudbucker, leaving it brittle and without any oomph. The bridge pickup is not over-wound like that colossal neck pickup, and it is also positioned smack up against the bridge - so it follows that the neck pickup should be much louder when that choke is not in play. That is what you are noticing with the "EB-0 mod" in place.
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Barend,
I was justi kidding you a bit;) I find this thread very interesting!
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Hi Chris,
yes, I know of course. No offence taken. I also don't like to be serious all the time.
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So do I. It's one of those threads people will dig up again and again as I'm sure other EB-3 owners will address the same issue in the future.
We're just childish here and cannot always concentrate on topics that deserve attention. But I learned from it that EB-3s are choked in all positions as opposed to the natural mudbucker might of an EB-0.
Uwe
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Story of my life:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/ADHD_CLOSE.jpg)
now... what was I doing again? ???
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Well I was bored tonight and finally read this thread carefully or at least enough of it to understand what was going on here. I unsoldiered the choke from the Varitone switch and also bypassed the resistor. The sound difference is amazing to me. I always use position three, both pickups and with these mods the bass came alive almost like bypassing the cap in Rick 4001's. Position 3 now has much more bottom especially with the neck pickup cut a bit as was described before. I used to have to put the treble tone control on almost 0 because of the lack of bottom to balance them. I can now have it wide open and it still sounds full and now has more bite to it and has more bottom to boot, the combination is also a lot louder. The neck pickup soloed also has more top and mids to it and I may also use that. Positions 1 and 4 do sound pretty much the same on my bass also. I am also happy with the much smaller volume difference between positions on the Varitone. The neck pickup sounds like a neck pickup, the bridge pickup sounds like a bridge pickup and both of them together now sounds like a combination between a bridge pickup with a real neck pickup. The neck pickup opened up in combination with the bridge sounds great. I'm going to use it tomorrow as a matter of fact. I got a pretty dramatic change from these two simple mods, thanks!
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Hey guys, new here and I was digging up some threads, because I am a proud new owner of a 70 Eb-3L. This is my first factory bass in a while, because I am a tinkerer. I have quickly discovered the same situation you guys are talking about.
I have a third variation that I did before I looked you guys up. I took out the cap and resistor, then hooked up the coil directly to the position 4 of that pole. It kinda tightens up some lower mids compared to position 1. I find it useful enough to leave it.
My bridge pickup is so much hotter than the neck in position 3. Has anyone found a way to ballance that other than using the volume knobs, since that opens its own can of worms.
Before doing that I had also replaced the 220k to a 220 ohm because I found a schematic that had a .220k, just for giggles. I liked it better, than stock, but that cap had to go. You guys seem like a good group, glad to stumble on this site.
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Sorry to dig up this old thread but if you cut the lead to ground from the inductor they balance a lot better. The bridge will still be louder in fact it almost entirely blanks out the neck when they are both on 10 but if you set the bridge volume somewhere around 9 they will balance pretty nicely. You will get a lot more bottom in pos 3.
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Good advice!