The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Bass Zone => Topic started by: westen44 on February 24, 2013, 11:35:19 AM
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I have a friend I haven't known too long. He is really pretty good on bass and has been playing a long time. Recently, he got into a band after not being in one for a really long time. I just got an email from him. I'm tempted to post the whole thing here, but I'll just paraphrase it. Last night they played a gig and sounded pretty good considering they haven't practiced quite enough. However, there were two other bands that played and my friend noted that the two bassists for those bands were superb, in fact, light years better than he was. They were melodic, playing everything but a standard bass line. Jazzers with a Beckish style of fusion. They were playing chords above the 12th fret and one was finger picking bluegrass style laying down two lines at the same time .
The bottom line is that now this guy is feeling seriously inadequate today. And considering what he has told me, I hardly know what to say. I want to encourage him, but I don't much believe in the pep talk stuff unless it really has substance. Any suggestions?
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It's not just how you play, it's WHAT you play. For me, it's like talking about Jamerson vs. Jaco. Sure, Jaco had the speed and all that, but Jamerson laid down solid foundations without being boring or basic. Jamerson was the foundation of music that has been popular with the masses worldwide for decades. Jaco is admired by bass players.
I used to feel like your friend, back in the days when I played for a living. There was always someone better than me. One day, a friend of mine told me that he preferred my playing to a few people we were discussing, who played rings around me. He said that I was the one who knew exactly what to play, where the others just burned up the fingerboard.
Finally, play this for your friend. There is power in a single note, when used effectively.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI9RGK9iyNo
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Know what to play, and when. Unless the song is written with a complex bass part, a standard bass line is standard. You can be creative without being fancy.
There's always someone who has better chops. It's okay to admire their technical skill (or not, in some cases) but that has nothing to so with playing the right part for the song.
Think about Dusty Hill's role in ZZ Top.
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Thanks, I do appreciate such good advice and I do believe it's very valid. I can definitely identify with what he's saying. Because about two and a half years ago I had the experience of being in a studio when a viruoso-type bassist unexpectedly appeared on the scene. It had the effect of actually making me play better. But I still had to go through a crisis of confidence which I am still trying to fully deal with.
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I play because I love music and it's a lot of fun. there's a wide range of talent out there but there's also room for everybody. there's always somebody better than me but if I let that bother me, I wouldn't play at all. besides, once you start playing, who's thinking about the bass player in another band? tell your friend to have fun and play his best.
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99 times out of 100, simpler is better....in perfect time is best.
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There is a bass forum in Australia that was started as a local off shoot of TalkBass, and a couple of times every year we have a get together and bring our gear, and sit around and talk sh!t about bass and play each other's gear. I'm probably in the bottom 25% of playing ability compared to all these trained players and slap masters, but you know what? Many of them have never had a paying gig in their life. I take great consolation that I'm smart enough to get great well paid gigs, and have done for 30 years now, without being a virtuoso bassist. There are lots of people like us out there - Cliff Williams and Adam Clayton, for starters.
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A few years ago I was at a party for a musician where a lot of his friends played and there were two other bassists there who made me feel inadequate, but after I was done playing the guitar player came over to me and told me how good I was. "In the pocket" was what he said. I little well timed praise can go a long way. Give him the pep talk. (And play some ZZ Top for him)
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I agree with the ZZ Top comments....and if you listen to Duck Dunn's work, you find that much of it is pretty minimalist. His embellishments are often two or three notes in passing, or just inverting a blues phrase so it starts high and goes low.
I am no virtuoso, and I constantly hear bassists who are more proficient, faster and who have a better grasp of theory than I have. But people tell me that the band sounds great, and I also get positive comments from guitarists.
There is plenty of room for different styles and different approaches.
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What you need to do is to be good at playing your own style, nobody can do that the way you can.
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He had already told me that it was the lead guitarist's opinion he cared the most about. Because it appears this is an exceptionally good guitarist. So, he sent me an email and said the lead guitarist called him. He is very happy with the way my friend sounded. Everyone has their own way of doing things. However, in my experience when I play well and get along with the lead guitarist, that's usually about the best thing that can happen in making a band run smoothly. It's a team effort, needless to say.
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Everybody will tell you that simple is better. In many cases ignorance is bliss. Many rock players are happy pounding root eighth-notes all night.
But your friend seems to want to know more. I would encourage him to do just that. Studying jazz will do wonders.
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Music theory is important...it's just better to get past the stage in life where you need to show off, and arrive at the stage where you play for the music, and don't really care about anything but the music. A lot of what I do is almost like meditation, concentrating and locking into the drums. Even when playing jazz, sometimes Count Basie said more with one or two notes, than other guys said while spewing notes all night long.
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I'm sure he's a better bass player than me.........Hell, everybody is, just the way it goes :)
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What you need to do is to be good at playing your own style, nobody can do that the way you can.
This is an extremely sage comment.
Music is art and performance. No two people will do those things in the same way. If you are the best YOU that's possible, you have done all you can do.
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I'm sure he's a better bass player than me.........Hell, everybody is, just the way it goes :)
This is what I'm beginning to think--I'm not just applying this to the specific example of my friend, but to things in general. The most important thing you have is your enthusiasm. That's going to be different for everyone, but it's obviously essential. Once you start comparing yourself to others, somehow that opens you up to potentially making your enthusiasm unguarded. Once the comparisons start, you've opened yourself up to something which is potentially infinite. So, to me what makes the most sense is to take whatever steps you can to maintain your enthusiasm. At the same time, always do what you can to progress, of course. But that can be done without paying too much attention to comparisons. Otherwise, if you did get mired down in comparisons, it would be like getting on a treadmill you can't get off of.
To use the common sports analogy, maybe what this should be about the most is the love of the game.
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Everybody will tell you that simple is better. In many cases ignorance is bliss. Many rock players are happy pounding root eighth-notes all night.
But your friend seems to want to know more. I would encourage him to do just that. Studying jazz will do wonders.
This thread is probably about finished and that's fine with me. However, I've had a chance to think about this some more and decided I'd say more about the jazz issue. Recently, I had a "discussion" with someone else about this issue. He has decided he likes jazz way more than rock and considers jazz to be a big step beyond rock. It bothered him, for instance, that so many rock bassists were included in a recent Rolling Stone poll. I told him that I liked rock quite a lot and, in fact, preferred it to jazz. The discussion ended with both of us disagreeing with the other.
In this particular instance with my friend, I will have to agree that your answer totally makes sense. He is essentially a blues rock bassist who keeps finding himself among jazz musicians. So, certainly learning much more about jazz would be a very good idea for him. But for people who aren't planning on playing with jazz musicians, I can't say that learning jazz would be the best thing to do. But there are plenty of people--including people on this board--who are really good rock bassists. They like rock; it's their genre of choice. Although Mitch Mitchell was a jazz drummer and that impacted the sound, Hendrix didn't need jazz to write, play, and sing some of the greatest music I've ever heard. Many other examples could be given.
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This is a really interesting thread. I can definitely feel for your friend. I am one of those bassists who has been playing almost thirty years but don't know all the notes on the fretboard! But I can get around by feel.
I actually stopped playing from '96-2002 - about five years. When I started up again, I realized that although I have always listened to technical, virtuoso music - from Deep Purple, Rush & Yes to Stanley Clarke, Jaco Pastorius, Mahavishnu Orchestra, etc. - I also love the blues and straight-ahead rock 'n' roll, and part of what makes that music work is the attitude as opposed to the technique. When I got back into music, I realized that I had something to say on the instrument, and that I didn't have to just ride the coattails of the guitarist. Part of my growth was the other people I was playing with - in fact, that is such a huge part. I feel like after 25-30 years I am finally learning how to solo, but there are also times when I like to just groove and play a repetitive bass line over and over if that's what the music needs.
Another kind of music I have discovered is soul jazz - late-'60s/early-'70s stuff like the organ trio stuff by Jimmy McGriff, Brother Jack McDuff, later Grant Green, also like the music that came out on the CTI label. Finding a guitar player who is into this stuff and playing in a trio with him has forced me to practice, learn some new stuff, and solo a lot more! 10 years since I've re-started playing, I continue to find my voice, I feel so blessed to have a band to play with again, and continue to deepen my enjoyment of music.
I was fortunate to see Victor Wooten play but also went to his clinic - I felt like I understood a lot of what he talked about - it's about the music and being yourself, not about trying to sound like someone else. It's also about listening, learning and enjoying. I heard other people who were at the same clinic saying things like "after seeing him play I wanted to throw away my bass" and I felt like they didn't get it yet. I felt inspired to go home and practice for my band so that I could continue to improve my own playing, totally separate from anything technical that Victor did.
Sorry for the long-winded response, not sure if this is relevant to what your buddy is going through but it's what I thought about when I read this thread...
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But for people who aren't planning on playing with jazz musicians, I can't say that learning jazz would be the best thing to do.
I think whether you play it or not, jazz just makes for a good vehicle to delve deeper into areas like music theory, sight reading, improv skills/soloing, and rhythm - all things that can be applied (even subtly) to good effect in any style of music. For a bassist, rhythm is critical - and getting adept at swing feel, syncopation, african, latin, and more advanced stuff like polyrythms will all come out of jazz study. Gaining that experience and understanding will only make for a more solid, versatile player IMO.
Of course, I need to listen to my own advice. I studied jazz when I was younger, and like Harry I stepped away from music for some time. My ability to sight read, and much of my knowledge of theory has vaporized. Since getting back into it, I've admittedly been coasting and lack the discipline/attention span/time-management to really knuckle down and force myself to get better as a player. I'll admit that being in a cover band doesn't really incent me to take that plunge either. Just having fun with it now, but I do feel that nagging guilt...
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I ended up saying more than I intended to. This really started as an attempt to get some ideas to pass along to my friend because it looked like he needed it. I did pass on some info from some of the posts to him, mostly paraphrased and that actually did seem to help. An issue like this one may vary from one person to another. Personally, I would find what Dave said to be the most applicable. Because that's just the way I look at things, too. But like I was saying in my earlier post, because my friend does seem to find himself playing in bands with jazz musicians, certainly Ilan's advice for him to consider going deeper into jazz might be beneficial to him.
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Bass players who overplay are a dime a dozen, which is why you can find them playing in most any local club bar band. Bass players who have chops but also enough self-control to just play a part that adds to a song and no more, especially something on the radio, are a rarity....which is why you see the few good ones playing on sessions for multiple artists.
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I remember going to see Billy Sheehan back in the day, talk about feeling inadequate! I have taken bits of others playing rolled it all up in a ball and made it my own, am I the fastest, tastiest bass player out there? Not by a long shot but I think I am unique in a way, I do what I do. Your friend should take stock of what he does, if he doesn't like what he hears then lessons and practice. These days I never compare myself to others.
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I remember going to see Billy Sheehan back in the day, talk about feeling inadequate! I have taken bits of others playing rolled it all up in a ball and made it my own, am I the fastest, tastiest bass player out there? Not by a long shot but I think I am unique in a way, I do what I do. Your friend should take stock of what he does, if he doesn't like what he hears then lessons and practice. These days I never compare myself to others.
I went to a bass clinic featuring Sheehan. The thing that drove me nuts was the fact that he barely moves his hands and fingers during all that. Every part of his playing is so intricate and co-ordinated, he makes it look easy.