The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: Hornisse on April 03, 2011, 02:11:41 PM
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I have to admit not knowing a lot about Hi Watt amps. Bass Emporium does have a nice DR105 and a couple of cabinets on their website.
http://www.bassemporium.com/item.php?sku=10434
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I have to admit not knowing a lot about Hi Watt amps. Bass Emporium does have a nice DR105 and a couple of cabinets on their website.
http://www.bassemporium.com/item.php?sku=10434
It's a fake.
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It's a fake.
Please tell me more. I'm not interested in the amp, I'd just like to know how you would tell.
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Please tell me more. I'm not interested in the amp, I'd just like to know how you would tell.
+1. Bass Emporium was running an ad in Craigslist for a while advertising the same head and both cabinets. I'm going there on Thursday and will give them whatever info you have on being able to tell it is a fake.
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I have to admit not knowing a lot about Hi Watt amps. Bass Emporium does have a nice DR105 and a couple of cabinets on their website.
http://www.bassemporium.com/item.php?sku=10434
Yes.They doo...... ;)
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It's a fake.
That is my amp.Would you care to enlighten us with your superior knowledge about that particular amp? To unequivocally state that "it's a fake" with out any corroboration or proof of any sort? It is NOT a fake. How do I know? because I have owned and played it for years. It has been maintained by any number of qualified people who would know a fake if it came across their bench. Try as I might, I can't recall you ever having been ny where near it.
I'm listening.........
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A cursory glance will tell you that while those may be Partridge-style transformers, the bell covers are wrong. Partridge transformers have open-varnished laminations with no covers. The male IEC socket for the power cord (which DID NOT EXIST in the mid 70's) is on a clean and unpitted piece of aluminum as well as fitted with pop rivets, indicating either factory installation or serious chassis modification. In the 70's, Hiwatt used the same bulgin jack/plug selector switch for power with a metal socket for the "kettle lead," so there should be two of them and a different power cord socket, one on each side of the back chassis, even on the Canadian models. The plastic jacks on the output are PC board mount types and not even made until the late 80's.
It looks like a parted-together forgery,(and they are quite common) or possibly an extensively rebuilt amp. It may sound excellent, but there is no way that's a stock 70's Hiwatt. I have absolutely nothing to gain by my statements. I don't sell anything. I don't endorse any products or dealers for money or any other kind of compensation. I call things like I see them. I am sorry that it bothered you so bad that I said your amp was a fake, but it is. That doesn't mean it sounds any worse or brings you any less satisfaction, that I'm accusing you of being dishonest or that it's even a bad amp. Judging by your response, you are most likely a victim of someone else's fraud.
http://www.vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=92695
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Obviously, birdie takes serious exception to my observations, however mine are accurate and I even went so far as to provide a link that describes one of the most common Hiwatt forgeries, complete with pictures which clearly illustrate what I have already verbally described. A further in-depth search on the vintage amp website linked to will only further show what I've already stated to be the case. I had no idea it was birdie's amp or I would never have made my comment about it authenticity public until after having extensively discussed it with him in private.
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This topic has bugged me, so I looked into it some more. There appears to be some information out there that would suggest some of the features of the Hiwatt I pointed out as signs of forgery are "correct" for the DR105, which was a Canadian-export only model. The trouble is those sources also conflict with each other and this amp on a few key points. First, it is claimed that no voltage selector was used as Canadian electrical regulations would not allow for voltage selection, which is certainly not true today or otherwise modern switching power supplies would likewise be illegal there and I seriously doubt such regulation existed in the 70's either. Some "had" a hardwired power cable and supposedly required transformer bell covers and IEC sockets for power cables. The trouble with those ideas is this (as I pointed out earlier) is that the IEC socket standard did not exist in 1977 and that Partridge has NEVER made transformers that had bell covers, even on much larger and more potentially lethal applications.
I want birdie to know that I have never doubted his sincerity or honesty for a single moment, but I still have serious reservations about agreeing with him that his amp is in fact a stock 70's Hiwatt. I would also like to point out that there is a business in the UK that is notorious for faking vintage Hiwatts and Marshalls and then using online forums to try and legitimize the different "feature set" when compared with an inarguably genuine vintage Hiwatt by spreading disinformation about "model variations." The amp in question probably sounds exactly like a vintage Hiwatt if the parts are close to spec, but I simply cannot endorse it as being a 70's Hiwatt. Of course I could be wrong, so take any advice I give with a grain of salt and weigh it with your own discretion.
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During my visit to Bass Emporium last Thursday the 7th I pointed out to John (the owner) that there had been a lot of discussion about that particular amp. I mostly noted the modern output socket which, as Psycho Bass Guy pointed out, did not exist in '77. Another thing I noticed about the serial number plate was it has the dreaded parenthesis which I've read means forgery. John explained that it was Canadian issue which was why it had the different power socket. That really doesn't explain anything since it had to have been a later addition during the life of the head. Would love to hear from Birdie concerning the amp. At the price they are asking it seems like a good deal considering what the vintage D103's are going for.
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I believe that the parenthesis that indicate a forgery are dropped down lower than the rest of the font.
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Thank you psycho. I will let this subject play itself out,as I might learn a bit more about the Hiwatt line. In any event, it's a damn good sounding amp, whatever it is. It's also if Iight say so myself, dang cheap for a Hiwatt, HiWhat?Hiwattish mashup.... ;D time may tell just what the story is on 105's.
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Ps I bought this years ago from a guy in yep, Canada, along with the 4x12.
He used to post a long time ago as 59burst, I seem to remember.
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For what it's worth I don't see anyone claiming it is stock...
An amp that age may well have had some modifications/replacements done.
I own an old early seventies Ampeg V4B. I had the power transformer replaced as the original had a melt down. One the standby switch has been replaced once by a non original one (in the middle of a gig). I had to replace the power plug as the old one fell apart. Plus some resistors inside have been replaced.
Does that make my amp a fake?
I don't think so. For a full tube it's normal servicing (and sometimes resurrection even) over the years.
YMMV
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The big thing for any Hiwatt/Sound City, moreso than the super tidy layout and serviceability, is having Partridge transformers. They are notoriously durable without being overwound, partly because the lack of bell covers helps to disappate heat off the windings. They are a huge part of why a Hiwatt has such power and authority. There are a couple of companies who make cosmetically similar with the off yellow, distinctively shaped core masts, but electrically inferior transformers and even going so far as to label them as "Partridge."
They are described here about halfway down the page: http://www.chambonino.com/work/hiwatt/hw4.html
Seeing those bell covers in the photo was an even bigger red flag than the IEC jack. Unless the replacement trannies can deliver the current that true Partridges do, it's not going to have the same punch. However, since Birdie has had that amp a long time, I'd say the replacements may be up to the task. The reason my gut said "fake" right away was that Music Ground, the notorious UK counterfeiter, used transformers that look exactly like the ones in BE photo in their buildups of old Hiwatt chassis. As I said in my intial comment last year about amp forgery:
Guitars are relatively easy to fake unless the perspective victim knows the details of the instrument he wants intimately. With amps, even the ones in the linked thread, if a buyer knows enough to seek out a specific model, even if it's a forgery, the amp has to be the functional equivalent and, in most cases, a similar model and vintage. In essence, the copies ARE as good as the real thing, just lacking the collector value. In that, aside from aesthetics, the people ARE getting what they pay for.
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My amp still lives five miles from where she was born, in Dave Reeves' garage, back in 1970...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/DR103%20SWITCH/20090810sick-amp7.jpg)
(still haven't got round to changing those 1969 capacitors... shame be heaped upon me) ;D
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FWIW (and not looking to fan any flames here, BTW), my 1978 Orange Overdrive 120 has an IEC socket.
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It's possible to add one of those later quite easily, but when it's attached using the same pop rivets as the name badge, that's a red flag.
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http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170628584683#ht_15582wt_1282
Found the above. Some cool pics!
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The reason my gut said "fake" right away was that Music Ground, the notorious UK counterfeiter, used transformers that look exactly like the ones in BE photo in their buildups of old Hiwatt chassis. As I said in my intial comment last year about amp forgery:
I found the following text on the bottom of the page here: http://hiwatt.org/ (http://hiwatt.org/)
Currently the HIWATT name is used by two separate factions:
Hiwatt Amplification U.K. - A subsidiary of the MusicGround group based in Doncaster, England. They own the rights to the name in England and Europe.
Fernandes Guitars USA - A division of Kabushiki Kaisha Fernandes based in Tokyo, Japan. Their products are manufactured in Korea, Japan and the U.K. and they have the rights to the name in the North America, Japan and Asia.
The two now have an agreement in place, and all the Hiwatt valve-based products being sold by both companies are now being sold from a facility in Leeds, England.
I dont doubt your knowledge of these things for a minute, and mine is only a passing interest but isn't what you are saying a bit like refering to a Loud Ampeg as a fake? Just curious, from a laymans pespective it all seems like some very blurred lines. I'm not intending to be provocative, just asking. :)
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Let me be clear; Music Ground uses their ownership of the name to produce fake vintage pieces which would have been manufactured years before that company existed. They then hit various forums on the internet talking up new "previously undiscovered" vintage Hiwatt (and other desirable brands') models that just happen to have features that should be anachronisms on amps of that vintage.
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k, gotcha. Thanks for that clarification. It all starts to make sense now.
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Let's not forget that those fine upstanding Music Ground guys are under indictment (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/father_and_son_guitar_theft_charges_1_3017049) in another long running scheme. Indictment isn't conviction, of course, but there's a lot of smoke wherever their company is mentioned.
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http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170628584683#ht_15582wt_1282
Found the above. Some cool pics!
Yep, and the same caveats apply. Those transformers are NOT Partridge. They are made to look like them, but they're not the real deal. Their EIA code of 755 corresponds to Universal Transformer Company, an American company. Partridge is still in business and does not use EIA codes as they are a British company.
Here is a detailed top view of a real Partridge tranny complete with label:
(http://www.planetoftheamps.com/orangeKT200-72-004.jpg)
Music Ground appears to have made quite the business out of forging vintage amps from scavenged and copied parts.
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Makes you wonder just how many fake "vintage" guitars are floating around these days. I remember reading a long time ago how Ed Roman (we all love him, no?) walked into a room in Japan back in the mid 1990's where they were painstakingly building 50's and 60's Fender guitars. I know my '72 Jazz and '61 EB0 are real because I've had them for a while. They are not completely original but I love them anyway.
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1969/70 vintage transformers in mine...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/DR103%20SWITCH/partridge-rhs.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/DR103%20SWITCH/partridge-lhs.jpg)
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More info: http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82300
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Let me be clear; Music Ground uses their ownership of the name to produce fake vintage pieces which would have been manufactured years before that company existed. They then hit various forums on the internet talking up new "previously undiscovered" vintage Hiwatt (and other desirable brands') models that just happen to have features that should be anachronisms on amps of that vintage.
I'm going to stick my neck out here & say there's elements of accuracy on both sides here. The trannies AND IEC are correct for a 78 Canadian Hiwatt (I couldn't find a 77 to refer to); BUT the rear chassis isn't. IF it was a Canadian amp, yes they were hard-wired to 115, but Hiwatt still used their standard chassis and rivetted at blanking plate where the mains selector should be.
In Hiwatt circles Mark Huss is generally regarded as the guru on their history & I've linked to this page, for reference.
http://hiwatt.org/pix.php?p=hiwattguts02
IF the spec plate on the one in the OP has the dropped parenthises then I'm afraid it's 100% that it's been "adapted" in some way by MG & that any info written on it should be taken with a pinch of salt. I don't see that on the OP pics but what I do see, call me pedantic, is that the "Hiwatt Amplifier" at the top of the plate is much different.
My guess? It's had a new chassis made in the dim & distant, though not necessarily by Hiwatt or MG.
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Mark Huss keeps a "register" of Hiwatt's on his site that help date the units; he could also help date and age components if there is any uncertainty - he is incredibly helpful - as mine is an oddball model he commented he would even do the repairs/servicing on mine at cost so he could get a chance to look it over; I know it is easy to offer that sort of thing when an ocean stands between us but I believe him to be one of those rare people: totally genuine - he told me that if I'm ever stupid enough to part with mine to please give him first refusal - he recokons it's a one off, although I was told there were six of the style built (similar to a DR103S, but not)...
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Mark Huss keeps a "register" of Hiwatt's on his site that help date the units; he could also help date and age components if there is any uncertainty - he is incredibly helpful -
I couldn't agree more. When Scott's ex-Slade Hiwatt first appeared Mark was incredibly helpful is assisting me to find out that it virtually certainly came from the same workshop as my Noddy Hiwatt.
Of course when Dave Hill himself recognised it & happily signed to that effect, that was it! :mrgreen:
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I tried to find out when the IEC 14 socket standard, the one on the amps, was adopted, but have had no luck. It may be that it was around that long ago, but I don't recall ever seeing one on anything before IBM stuff in the mid 80's. Those transformer bell covers still bother me. I've seen huge Partidge trannies on a pair of amps that ran 12 and 14 KT88's respectively and the windings were still just laquered and open-air. There's still the question of the tranny codes and the labels, too. Believe me, I don't care to be wrong, but the same questions keep getting answered in different ways.