The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: hollowbody on August 27, 2013, 10:02:49 PM
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I picked up a HD130 and used it on my Sat and Sun gigs. Sat night I plugged into an SVT 8x10 and waas having a hard time hearing it, plus the EB0 was farting out in the low notes. By the end of the night I had the master at about 6 and the pre at about 4. Sunday night was better, running into my Avatar 2x12 with the master at full and pre at about 5. Since I see that there are a few 130 users on here, how any of you set your pre/gain? This amp is strange to me.
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It is indeed a strange amp. Nevertheless I´ve used it as my main amp for 20 years.
I use the ´normal´channel, the deep switch works anyway. I always have the master at 10,
but switch to 65W (LO) unless I´m on a stage. The eq is not very effective, but the preamp
seems to collapse when too much highs or lows are present - I use pedals with care on this
amp. For gain I end up on 2-4, usually loud enough. I must admit that using mudbuckers on the
HD130 is not a great success, although I love both... Something is happening gain/low end-wise
that I don´t like. I´d say it has a good power section. I put a pre in (between the deep switch and the
driver tube in the schematics) and you can use anything in front of it, all the troubles are gone!
I seriously think of modding the HD130 so that the normal channel is stock, while the bass channel is
all tube bassman like. Many people think the HD130 is difficult to fine tune, it really is a fine line
between ´loud, clear and thight´ and ´too hard / stiff´sounding. There is also some sound difference between
the ones with tube diver vs. those with transistors. It´s an important stage in the design, but a good setup/biased
amp sounds good anyway, with the right speakers. Some say that HD´s with tube drivers are ´smooth sounding with a touch of bassman when cranked up´, while the later versions are way too harsh sounding. In my opinion that is
far from true.
All that said, I think it´s a very reliable amp, but yes- can be difficult to tame on some axes.
Never tried with 8x10, though I did try out a 4x10 + 1x15 setup once.
I like the full 1x15 + 2x12 stack best, or with a single 15 in smaller places.
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Edit: uhh.. collapse might be a strong word, but I like it best with bass and mid on 5 and treble (even bright switch) set according to my stings, as my gibbys usually have flats..
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Thanks for the rundown. I may just have to spend a little more time tweaking knobs. It's going to see my tech on Friday.
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I have been experimenting for months now. It is true the amp roars when humbucker basses are plugged into it. Some of the overtones it creates are quite weird and untamable. I can't get my 4003 to sound good no matter what I try. ThunderJet and T-birds do sound good. So does my j bass.
I use the guitar channel. It seems clearer and sounds really good to my ear. I set he channel vol around 4 and the main whenever I need it, usually around 6 or so. I run at full power. the tone knobs are both around 7 or 8. I use the deep switch and normal on the other one IIRC. Less bass and more treble if I have flats on the bass so it cuts through the guitar and drum racket better. I have also been running my ThunderJet, T-Birds and 335 basses with both pups full on and equal and I am really liking the sound. Not so much mush, more clarity. The tubes still are producing a wonderful warm tone with a touch of distortion. I just love the old school tone it produces.
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I can't get my 4003 to sound good no matter what I try.
I have similar issues with my 4001, although I think it sounds great alone.
It delivers really nice authentic ricky-prog tone, from clean and ´wide´scoped tones and
all the way to full drive, like some of the heavier tracks on ´lamb lies down on broadway´.
But when played with a band, the rick+HD130 gets tricky to blend in, in my opinion.
It´s possible, but i feel like I´m tweaking away the cool sounds just so it can blend in.
That´s when I switch to mudbucker - and the band can´t be heard at all :)
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How does the Marshall compare to the HD-130, Amptech?
I own an Ampeg B-15 and a B-1(2-12AX7 pre, ss power), with pre outs, a Demeter 201 Pre and an H & K Bluesmaster. I can get virtually the same sound out of them using either the tube poweramp section or into an SS poweramp (Ampeg SVP-1500, the B-1 amp in or PF-500 Class D amp in), transparent, big and round with great mids and highs. The PF-500 sounds better with a tube pre into it vs. the factory front end, though it's not bad.
I'm skeptical you can get a real "tube" sound out of an SS pre to tube power hybrid.
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I'm skeptical you can get a real "tube" sound out of an SS pre to tube power hybrid.
The Trace Elliot VR series have ss preamps and with that massive eq will cover everything from Bassman boom to Hiwatt roar while still letting the bass's inherent character shine through. Many s/s bass amps make every bass have the same tone. My go-to amp right now is my VR350 into an Acme Series I 4x10. Before I got an SVT cab and hauled my SVT rigs, my live rig was a VR400 power amp with a Dual SMX Compressor pedal acting as a preamp into various 4x10 (usually Gibson) and 18" cabs. The trick is to have enough drive current to really swing the tube power stage. Most preamps rely on simple voltage specs matched with woefully inadequate IC's ("servo balancing") for preamp output/power amp input. They can't match current flow because of high input impedance and simply don't have the guts to make a tube power amp sound good.
In the HD130's with the tube driver, it is another stage that overloads pleasantly while still driving the very/clean almost harsh power section, so it fattens up the overall sound and gives more punch and volume. The transistor drivers just sound like transistors at high drive levels. The HD130 runs its power tubes VERY hard with over 600 volts on the plates and biased just inside of class A/B. It's basically as clean as you can make a quartet of medium-sized audio power tubes.
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In the HD130's with the tube driver, it is another stage that overloads pleasantly while still driving the very/clean almost harsh power section, so it fattens up the overall sound and gives more punch and volume. The transistor drivers just sound like transistors at high drive levels. The HD130 runs its power tubes VERY hard with over 600 volts on the plates and biased just inside of class A/B. It's basically as clean as you can make a quartet of medium-sized audio power tubes.
So the earlier model is the way to go?
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The transistor driver models are plenty warm and loud, but if you want a fuzzier, more broken-up, SVT-ish sound at high volumes, go for the tube driven models. The HD-130 was a great amp, it was just a fashion victim, coming along making lots of clean power when Marshall was the omnipresent stage standard. If someone wanted the Music Man tone for guitar, they'd just get a Twin, or if they were rednecks, they'd get a Peavey Mace or Butcher.
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The HD-130 was a great amp, it was just a fashion victim, coming along making lots of clean power when Marshall was the omnipresent stage standard. If someone wanted the Music Man tone for guitar, they'd just get a Twin, or if they were rednecks, they'd get a Peavey Mace or Butcher.
And then there is the Clapton mod. Clapton had his heads wired different than the other HD heads at the time, while he appeared in musicman ads. It must have been confusing for those who wanted clapton sounds and bought musicman amps.
I´ve suggested this mod as a possibility to guitarists who don´t like how it distorts, but they usually have a stompbox
that does the job fine - and they don´t want to sound like clapton in the 70´s anyway 8)
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I have similar issues with my 4001, although I think it sounds great alone.
It delivers really nice authentic ricky-prog tone, from clean and ´wide´scoped tones and
all the way to full drive, like some of the heavier tracks on ´lamb lies down on broadway´.
But when played with a band, the rick+HD130 gets tricky to blend in, in my opinion.
It´s possible, but i feel like I´m tweaking away the cool sounds just so it can blend in.
That´s when I switch to mudbucker - and the band can´t be heard at all :)
Amen, I've found the same thing! Every now and then the guitar player ask me if I've turned my amp way up and I haven't. I'm just filling the room and moving lots of air.
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How can I tell if my preamp is transistor or tube? My newer acquisition has a single little tube aside from the 4 power tubes. Is that the preamp tube?
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How can I tell if my preamp is transistor or tube? My newer acquisition has a single little tube aside from the 4 power tubes. Is that the preamp tube?
All the preamps in the HD130's were transistor. The 'tube in question' is the phase inverter/drive stage tube. That's what you have, otherwise there would be no small tubes in there at all. At the time of the HD130, RCA had just shut down its tube plants and lots of poor quality, noisy preamp tubes were hitting the market as their reject surplus was sold off by unscrupulous wholesalers under various brands. Since phase inverters don't make a lot of gain and have a high level signal being fed to them already, a lower quality tube in that stage isn't as big of a deal in terms of noise. As the preamp tube supply became even more inconsistent, the amp was redesigned to use transistors for the drive stage. Leo wanted clean. The HD series is basicallly the Twin/Showman version 2.0, so in order to have the cleanest possible input, he used transistors because they were more consistent in quality.
The era of early Music Man was where tubes got the reputation for being far more fragile than they are because of RCA's junk stock hitting the market. RCA basically quit the tube game because the military was switching over to s/s electronics. They had been subsidized to screen their production and when the subsidies stopped, reject tubes that would have been destroyed and remanufactured were stored. RCA was, until they quit, THE largest tube manufacturer in the world and still part of Bell. GE and Sylvania were able to pick up the slack and carry on domestically, though GE did almost double Sylvania's business and actually made many of Sylvania's envelopes for them. Sylvania (and Magnavox) was bought by Philips in the early 80's and had tube pants in both Europe and the US, having aquired Amperex, Telefunken and much of Mullard's facilities. Widespread tube production stopped in 1986, but many speciality lines (radar and transmitter) carried on production, some even to this day.
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All the preamps Leo wanted clean. The HD series is basicallly the Twin/Showman version 2.0, so in order to have the cleanest possible input, he used transistors because they were more consistent in quality.
I'm well aware of the fender similarities, but Leo himself didn't have anything to do with musicman amps, did he?
If I remember correctly, he only designed the stingray series instruments, and another which I can't remember..
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So, what does a phase inverter do? Don't get too technical, you know how that confuses me!
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So, what does a phase inverter do? Don't get too technical, you know how that confuses me!
Just think of it as a component that splits the signal from the preamp into two, sending one half of it to
one pair of output tubes and one half to the other pair, making the output stage more efficient.
It´s also known as the driver tube; it just a component that drives the output stage.
It´s not a correct way of explaining what actually happens to the signal, but I´m sure
you can find out more about push-pull, phase inverters and so on in other threads here.
It usually gets pretty boring when technicians try to explain things, the short short version
is rarely used!
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I'm well aware of the fender similarities, but Leo himself didn't have anything to do with musicman amps, did he?
If I remember correctly, he only designed the stingray series instruments, and another which I can't remember..
IIRC Leo and Tom Walker designed the amps, while Tom alone designed the preamp for the basses. As always, I could be wrong.
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No, you were right! I have to throw away some of my outdated books :-\
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Hmmm...interesting question. I would have assumed that it inverted the phase of the output so that you could potentially have the + and - signals reversed.
But on reflection, that would most likely cause problems with speaker phasing...so I would have been wrong (again).
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Hmmm...interesting question. I would have assumed that it inverted the phase of the output so that you could potentially have the + and - signals reversed.
But on reflection, that would most likely cause problems with speaker phasing...so I would have been wrong (again).
Since I am clueless, I dom't worry about making assumptions! I just don't go there!
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Question: While playing my "newer" 130, I noticed a very high pitched ringing sound that is coming from the amp itself, like maybe the tubes???
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You lot do lead such closeted lives... here's a list of differing types of PHASE INVERTERS... (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phase_inverter) ;D
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Question: While playing my "newer" 130, I noticed a very high pitched ringing sound that is coming from the amp itself, like maybe the tubes???
Tubes makes the sound you describe when they age, or even new but poorly selected - they can have loose electrodes or
bad frames/electrode structures - they are microphonic. Tapping them softly with something like a pen, might sort this out.
Usually this is easy to spot with tubes in early stages of the preamp, they amplify this noise a lot more than a PI or output tube. Obviously you have no tubes in the preamp, but do check the tubes for microphonic sounds. Just don´t burn your fingers!
Without hearing the sound it makes it can be other things too, loose mechanical components etc, but bad tubes loves to ring.
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Microphonic power tubes "whoosh;" they don't ring. If you're hearing ringing from the amp itself that's not coming through the speakers, it's probably the glass in the tube envelopes vibrating or making thermal expansion/contraction noises.
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Microphonic power tubes "whoosh;" they don't ring. If you're hearing ringing from the amp itself that's not coming through the speakers, it's probably the glass in the tube envelopes vibrating or making thermal expansion/contraction noises.
I didn´t see in the text that the sounds did not pass through the speakers, sorry.
Still, the most understandable way to explain any sound the tube makes by itself and passes through the speakers is to call it microphonic.
High pitch oscillations, funny squeaking etc will still fit into the microphonic category. I can eat your whoosh theory ok,
but I still could advise a customer to check tubes as well as loose tubes in the socket etc. if he tells me his amp makes a ringing sound.
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Question: While playing my "newer" 130, I noticed a very high pitched ringing sound that is coming from the amp itself, like maybe the tubes???
Didn´t read the whole text the first time, sorry! Before I mounted springs on the power tubes on my 130,
I used to put a couple of thick socks under the rubber feet even when using only the 212 cab.
The ´clips´(if that´s what you call them) that holds the tubes in the sockets doesn´t do much to stop the rattling.
If you play with the amp on the floor, the ´ring´goes away, yes?
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You lot do lead such closeted lives... here's a list of differing types of PHASE INVERTERS... (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phase_inverter) ;D
OOOOooooooOOOOO. It's alla time clear to me now.
Just like a Flux Capacitor, (http://backtothefuture.wikia.com/wiki/Flux_capacitor) only different!
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;D
Back in the late 70's I was having all sorts of issues with the set of valves that were in my Hiwatt, being terribly microphonic - also, weirdly, every time a police car went past it would pick up their broadcasts...???
We were in one studio where we had been stitched up a couple of times and I happened to notice he had a hired Marshall head with the same set of valves - I don't know how it happened but they somehow got mixed up and my problem was cured - no more police broadcasts or microphonic issues...
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I used to live about 5 miles from a 5 KW radio transmitter at AM 1250.
When playing my blackface '67 Bassman and 2x15 cab with connection via my coily cord, I often picked up the signal of that station. I could hear it faintly but clearly through the amp.
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My tech just called and said everything is fine with the head. I'm going to play a different bass for the weekend gigs and see if it just dislikes my EB0.
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High pitch oscillations, funny squeaking etc will still fit into the microphonic category.
Oscillations are usually symptoms of bad caps or stage to stage impedance problems. A microphonic preamp tube can set up an oscillation, but if it continues feeding back, there's a problem elsewhere in the circuit, too. The "whoosh" in power tubes is the momentary current spike caused by physical vibration shaking loose electrons from the cathode and overrunning the bias. I've never heard a power tube ring electronically. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I've never seen it.
Back in the late 70's I was having all sorts of issues with the set of valves that were in my Hiwatt, being terribly microphonic - also, weirdly, every time a police car went past it would pick up their broadcasts...???
That's easy; the cathode to ground connection was acting as an antenna and the RF field of the CB was modulating it directly, basically turning the tube into a self-contained radio/guitar pickup. The microphonics were probably the result of poor shield connections to ground around the cathode and the shields themselves were vibrating.
I used to live about 5 miles from a 5 KW radio transmitter at AM 1250.
When playing my blackface '67 Bassman and 2x15 cab with connection via my coily cord, I often picked up the signal of that station. I could hear it faintly but clearly through the amp.
In your case, the coily cord's capacitance is acting as the antenna. A small snap-on inductor clip at the amp end will cure it. It's the cable, not the amp. I live just a couple of miles from several high-powered TV and radio transmitters and my G&L's L2500's active setting reproduces 97.5 FM quite clearly, as does my Ibanez Musician to a lesser degree. Several of my passive basses also catch it faintly, but it goes away when I physically touch any ground point on them.
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Oscillations are usually symptoms of bad caps or stage to stage impedance problems. A microphonic preamp tube can set up an oscillation, but if it continues feeding back, there's a problem elsewhere in the circuit, too. The "whoosh" in power tubes is the momentary current spike caused by physical vibration shaking loose electrons from the cathode and overrunning the bias. I've never heard a power tube ring electronically. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I've never seen it.
I didn´t say power tubes ring, nor did I want to become too technical - just point out that to find out if tubes are microphonic,
tapping them might give you a clue what the problem is. Drbassman requested a non-technical reply, so I tried to answer the question
without going into the circuit.
As I explained, I didn´t see in the text that the ´ringing´probably was just the tubes rattling physically, so please have me excused :)
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OK, I gave the noise a closer listen after letting the amp heat up for 90 minutes and it sounds like glass rattling, not ringing. My mistake for describing it that way! I am thinking maybe a tube or two isn't seated all the way? I tapped them all lightly with a pencil and nothing happened. I'm going to let the amp cool off and check how well the tubes are seated.
The more I listen to it, it sounds like a vibration in the chassis area and it isn't coming through the speaker for sure. It's probably something really simple (I hope). I think the reason I can even hear it is because I am playing the amp at low volume here at home.
If it is something in the circuit, we have a great amp guy here in Rochester and I'll drag it over to hom for checkup, if necessary.
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Let´s hope it´s simple, then! Another way to make the tubes sit better, is to tighten the contacts in the sockets.
But that requires draining of the caps, best done with the amp out of the cab. Your amp-guy will check for loose components first, but tightening sockets might be a good thing to do if it has not been done before.
A couple of years back, I had a guitar payer who bought a marshall stack new, never had it in for service. (serial nr. dated it 1983) He asked me to check out a rattling noise that got louder and louder over the years (!). The output transformer
was hanging all loose in there, with three loose screws. One screw was missing, with it´s nut and washer ´rattling´along inside the head! This is some scary stuff, I said. He just looked at me and said he had no ideas on the whereabouts of the screw :)
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Let´s hope it´s simple, then! Another way to make the tubes sit better, is to tighten the contacts in the sockets.
But that requires draining of the caps, best done with the amp out of the cab. Your amp-guy will check for loose components first, but tightening sockets might be a good thing to do if it has not been done before.
A couple of years back, I had a guitar payer who bought a marshall stack new, never had it in for service. (serial nr. dated it 1983) He asked me to check out a rattling noise that got louder and louder over the years (!). The output transformer
was hanging all loose in there, with three loose screws. One screw was missing, with it´s nut and washer ´rattling´along inside the head! This is some scary stuff, I said. He just looked at me and said he had no ideas on the whereabouts of the screw :)
Yeah, I'll make sure the tubes are in tight and go from there.
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OK, things are straightening out nicely. Pulled the back off the amp cab and guess what I found in the bottom?
Yep, one of the big transformer mounting screws! I put it back in and tightened the others. Would it be wise to put some star washers under these things? I think so. The rest of the screws in the chassis seem to be tight.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN0987_zpsa52ca2b6.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN0987_zpsa52ca2b6.jpg.html)
As for the tubes, they are fine also. Nice and tight. Dumb question: are the bent metal rings supposed be holding the tubes in? Cuz if they are, they are barely contacting the sides of the tubes' bases. Just wondering.........
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN0986_zps3e2000d7.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN0986_zps3e2000d7.jpg.html)
I played the amp after tinkering and it sounds fine. If I stick my ear next to the back, I can hear faint vibrations when I hit a note at volume, but nothing significant. When play at a moderate volume and sitting in front of the amp, I can't hear anything. So, I think that's cleared up.
So far, so good! Going to check the chassis screws in my other MM amp next!
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OK, things are straightening out nicely. Pulled the back off the amp cab and guess what I found in the bottom?
Yep, one of the big transformer mounting screws! I put it back in and tightened the others. Would it be wise to put some star washers under these things? I think so. The rest of the screws in the chassis seem to be tight.
As for the tubes, they are fine also. Nice and tight. Dumb question: are the bent metal rings supposed be holding the tubes in? Cuz if they are, they are barely contacting the sides of the tubes' bases. Just wondering.........
I played the amp after tinkering and it sounds fine. If I stick my ear next to the back, I can hear faint vibrations when I hit a note at volume, but nothing significant. When play at a moderate volume and sitting in front of the amp, I can't hear anything. So, I think that's cleared up.
So far, so good! Going to check the chassis screws in my other MM amp next!
Washers might be a good idea.
The clamps can be tightened, probably the amp had tubes with bigger sockets at one point.
Glad it turned out well!
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Yep, but now the amp is putting out static every time I hit a note and any volume. So, it's off to the shop. Damn.
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I ended up bringing my EB-0 and Ripper to the gig on Saturday. After playing about 20 min at home I thought that everything was good to go. That was not the case. It turns out that this mudbucker puts out too much signal for the amp to handle. The bass volume knob had to be set at about 6.5 to keep it clean. My settings with the EB were treble and mid at full, bass at 4, bright switch on and deep switch off. I did use the Ripper for the last set and everything worked beautifully.
The amp also had no problems with the 67 Rivoli that I picked up today. The EB-0 pickup must be very hot.
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I ended up bringing my EB-0 and Ripper to the gig on Saturday. After playing about 20 min at home I thought that everything was good to go. That was not the case. It turns out that ...
The amp also had no problems with the 67 Rivoli that I picked up today. The EB-0 pickup must be very hot.
There's no difference between the pickups. If you had the "baritone" switch engaged on the Embassy, that would make a big difference.
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I know that they are the same pickup. I guess it may be premature to say that it's just the EB. Mabye the Rivoli will overdrive the pre as well once I turn the amp up to stage volume. I will try it after I set up on Thursday's gig.
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As for the tubes, they are fine also. Nice and tight. Dumb question: are the bent metal rings supposed be holding the tubes in? Cuz if they are, they are barely contacting the sides of the tubes' bases. Just wondering.........
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN0986_zps3e2000d7.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN0986_zps3e2000d7.jpg.html)
When the amp was made, it used US-made fat bottled 6CA7's which had larger bases than EL34's.
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When the amp was made, it used US-made fat bottled 6CA7's which had larger bases than EL34's.
Ah, figures! Thanks for the info.