The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: westen44 on February 08, 2022, 02:33:36 PM
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Maybe the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame should just go ahead and call it quits? Each year it moves closer to making a mockery of rock music.
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/judas-priest-is-trailing-six-other-artists-in-2022-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-induction-fan-vote/
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Eminem leading?
He's not even remotely Rock & Roll.
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I beg to differ! Eminem was crossover and improvisational,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pztBJl6IQwU
left an imprint on a lot of Nu Metal and, yes, I consider this rock here, it's certainly not funk guitar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yhyp-_hX2s
Or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4hAVemuQXY
Give him some credit, his stuff wasn't brainless. His music was too somber and solemn to be ever considered pure pop, his breakbeats were not really danceable and he eschewed the dumb sexism and bling-bling affliction of most other hip-hop acts in his lyrics and presentation. Unless you say that spoken-word-lyrics automatically and irretrievably "unrock" everything (in which case you are quickly approaching Manowar territory - and who really wants to agree with Joey DeMaio?), I have no issues with him being in the RRHoF. He meant a lot to a lot of people of his (and a younger) generation plus he was (and remains to this day) the first and only credible white hip-hop artist, talk about a lasting legacy.
Besides, his mom was Kim Basinger, so there! (And that movie wasn't half bad either.)
(https://fr.web.img2.acsta.net/r_1280_720/medias/nmedia/00/02/46/93/p9.jpg)
PS: I'm probably prejudiced, but my son heard so much Eminem I had no choice but to like it from a certain point onward. He brainwashed me. All those letters we got from school because the underpants of our 10 year old were always sticking out. Then, one day, all his baggy pants went out the window, he bought himself an impossibly tight skinny jeans for girls (whose close fit had me worried about the further development of his manhood; I am happy to report today that those concerns proved unfounded!) and a leather jacket and all of the sudden I heard Axl Rose's screech rather than Eminem's reproachful litanies blaring from his bedroom! :mrgreen:
PPS: And in essence the RRHoF should really be called Popular Music Hall of Fame - it's a (remaining or enduring) popularity contest for pop acts with a certain lasting cultural impact (however slight), whether they play rock or not.
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Dolly Parton and Lionel Richie two real rockers. :rolleyes:
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Well, at least Iggy is recieving the Polar Music Prize this year:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/iggy-pop-polar-music-prize-2022-1296590/ (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/iggy-pop-polar-music-prize-2022-1296590/)
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It's an organisation to honor Western pop music of the last 70 years or so, get over the misleading moniker! It would however benefit transparency if the Hall followed suit and renamed itself in an other-than-just-rock'n'roll-referencing way.
What is r'n'r anyway? We can all agree that it is certainly acts like Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Elvis, The Beatles, the Stones and Jimi Hendrix, the "forefathers" so to say. But I'm not sure whether Chuck Berry and and Little Richard would not frown at the question of whether YES and Genesis are r'n'r. It's along way from Johnny B. Goode to Lamb Lies Down On Broadway. If you'd ask Tony Banks, the keyboarder and one of the main songwriters of Genesis, he would tell you that American Blues played zero role in his musical upbringing and that he is essentially an English Music Hall kid.
Speaking of Genesis and its various eras, is this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wHqUOE16vo
somehow more RRHOF-deserving than this here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovo6zwv6DX4
Alas!, ticklish questions those are.
So is it music with an upfront electric (ooops, Bob Dylan and the Eagles just complained!) guitar? That lets you cover the bases from Metallica to Tom Petty to Bob Marley. But Elton John and Billy Joel would probably say, what about us and Little Richard then? And once you have Elton John in, is it really that self-evident that Lionel Richie shouldn't be there? (A man who says about himself that his songwriting is more influenced by Lennon/McCartney than by soul or blues greats because he was a Beatles buff as a kid.)
Also, no one ever complains if a traditional Blues artist is inducted (rightly so), yet early rock'n'roll had a strong country & western ingredient too (just think of Bill Haley & The Comets), are we sure about Dolly not fitting in? Especially if Linda Ronstadt and Emmylou Harris are already there?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw_Codf29Pw
(Now that song is of course not r'n'r. Unless Led Zep play it, that is?)
So has it something to do with counterculture then? The Bob Dylans and Neil Youngs, who cares if they play acoustic or electric? Try to explain to me then what The Hollies and the Bee Gees are doing in the RRHOF. Or Kiss. Those bands were a lot, but certainly not counterculture.
I personally find it excruciatingly difficult to put your finger on what qualifies or disqualifies an artist for being inducted into the Hall - other than his/her participation in Western popular music in the last 70 years coupled with a cultural impact of some intensity and duration. The aspects I mentioned above all sometimes seem to play a role - and sometimes not. There is no firm set of rules.
And maybe that's a good thing. It's not some biological classification as mammal, bird or reptile.
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Just the fact that Mettalica is in, and Judas Priest isn't, is enough to show what a joke that whole thing is. Also, no King Crimson. What is WRONG with these people?
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Look at the sales of Metallica and those of Priest. Metallica did the most incredible thing - a hairy unshaven and pimply speed metal band from the Bay Area escaped the heavy metal subculture and made vast inroads into mainstream. Metallica became a cultural signpost - like a Ramones or a Rolling Stones T-shirt with the tongue logo.
Priest never even seriously attempted to leave the heavy metal ghetto - their significance outside of metal circles is low. If I asked my law firm partners (who mostly listen to classical music or jazz, "rock" to them is Eric Clapton post-Cream), "Metallica" would draw glances of recognition, "Judas Priest" would draw a blank. Whenever Priest attempted something different (and they did: Hellbent for Leather, Point of Entry, Turbo, Nostradamus, all of them brave albums), they chickened out with the next album and reverted to formula. Metallica OTOH have often veered radically from their audience's expectations (taking lots of flak for it): And Justice For All, Black Album, St. Anger, their collaboration with Lou Reed: Lulu, dragging their member's psychological issues into the glaring daylight with Some Kind Of Monster. Metallica were/are fearless.
I'm writing this as an ardent Priest fan who is mostly left cold by Metallica's music (it was hard work for me to get into their music so I can even only occasionally listen to it), but credit where credit is due. I love Priest, but they have made some really duff career moves in their history (Iron Maiden, not at all my taste, were much braver on their path of essentially becoming a heavy prog band without keyboards). And I don't find Metallica especially entertaining or emotionally gripping, but I respect them as an institution. There is something Citizen Kane'ish in the way they have forged their career.
I'm totally with you btw that King Crimson/Robert Fripp is a grave omission in the RRHOF. If there is a band that shaped Prog rock as an art form it is them, perhaps together with Frank Zappa who is already (rightfully) inducted. And while we're at it, Jethro Tull should be in there too. I'm not the greatest Ian Anderson fan on earth, but a singular piece of rock history he and his band mates certainly were.
Doesn't it give you some consolation that your friend Eddie J is finally in there, you meter-tripping Prog Boy?! :mrgreen: Great violin solo at 2:48 ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtwancmC5pU
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I have to throw in my ever-meaningless vote for Dick Dale! He's about eleventy billion times better qualified for the RRHOF than most of these jokers.
And on his tours, he played guitar, drums, bass, (with drum sticks) keys, trumpet and sax.
One of his classics, Nitro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuHs_mhg9Nk
Another, Dick at age 81 playing the Viper Room. Watch him play harmonics by tapping the strings. I wish this one had Sam Bolle on bass....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yihbCtpt6Y
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I visited RRHOF a year or two after it opened, and it was obvious that it was not a real chronicle of music.
Yeah, a few Janis Joplin things and a vest from a guy in Santana, and one of Bootsy's costumes along with a tribute Friend and Lover
I'm still pissed about that one so much that you'll have to look them up yourself.
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Dolly Parton and Lionel Richie two real rockers. :rolleyes:
I think Dolly Parton is an admirable person. Most likely Lionel Richie is, too, although I know less about him. But are they real rockers? I don't much think so. However, I think it's already being established that the RRHOF itself is a sham anyway.
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All criticism of the RRHOF usually boils down to people being miffed that their particular pet band or artist has not (yet) been included: "A is in there, but B is not, how unfair!" The ole finger pointing game.
My stance is more encompassing. I don't give a flying flamingo whether Ms Parton or Mr Richie are in the RRHOF. I do find it puzzling, however, that certain acts like BÖC, Free, Bad Company, Rory Gallagher, J. Geils Band, Foghat, Chicago, Mott the Hoople, Peter Frampton, Doobie Brothers, Grand Funk Railroad, Humble Pie or Jethro Tull are somewhat glaringly omitted (my suspicion is that Dave W has a hand in this, they are all arena rockers). Their case isn't bettered though by keeping acts like Eminem, Dolly or Lionel out of the RRHOF.
It goes back to what I wrote before: The RRHOF is a forum for putting popular music - basically any kind of pop music - under the spotlight of public awareness to bolster and depict the cultural impact of popular music as an art form. In essence a lobbying organisation. Claiming that it should only admit "real rock" - please define, we can't even agree on what exactly that is here in the LBO which bears a certain affinity for "rock" - misses the point.
In the meantime, everyone should just be patient: Even a band such as Deep Purple - never really cool, never much charting with singles and deemed perennially without any cultural impact worth commemorating - eventually lumbered on crutches into the RRHOF. Other acts will follow. If anything, RRHOF's induction policies have become less elitist in the last 25 years or so. As more and more bands and artists get in there, they are obviously running out of suitable candidates, especially as post-baby boomer eras have not spawned as many bands and artists with longevity.
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I tend to look more at the influence a band had on other bands, not record sales or familiarity with the general public. I know this is not how they make their decisions, but that's my angle.
"If there is a band that shaped Prog rock as an art form it is them" - This is how I feel about the Priest versus Metallica thing. No Priest = no Metallica. Everyone knows Yes and Genesis, but King Crimson is a bit of a mystery to most "normal" people.
And yes, as a EJ fanboy, I was thrilled to see him inducted as part of Roxy. I believe he is the first, and currently only electric violinist in there, and I'm a big electric violin fan in general. Out of the Blue is on the set list for my upcoming John Wetton tribute show. ;D
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I think all my favorite bands are already in the RRHOF. My complaint is they are putting too many people in now who are not even rock artists. It's like having a World War I museum. But then as times goes on you start putting exhibits in there that have nothing to do with World War I. Like I've said before, it's becoming increasingly obvious that the people running the place don't know what they're doing. Or they have an agenda which runs counter to the original idea of a rock and roll hall of fame. Maybe the RRHOF has simply outlived its purpose. Like bureaucratic agencies who outlive their purpose, but keep coming up with ways to try to justify their existence.
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Did the RRHOF ever give an official mission statement what it considers itself to be? I'm wondering. People seem to take the "rock'n'roll" component of the name a bit to literal. I never saw the 'rock'n'roll' meaning "only guitar-led real rock bands".
Wikipedia sez:
"Early Influences
Early Influences includes artists from earlier eras, primarily country, folk, jazz, and blues, whose music inspired and influenced rock and roll artists. Other notable artists that have been inducted as Early Influences include Bill Kenny & The Ink Spots, country musicians Jimmie Rodgers and Hank Williams, blues musicians Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters, and jazz musicians Jelly Roll Morton and Louis Armstrong. After Nat King Cole and Billie Holiday in 2000, no one was inducted in this category until 2009, when rockabilly singer Wanda Jackson was selected. Unlike earlier inductees in this category, Jackson's career almost entirely took place after the traditional 1955 start of the "rock era"."
Were Priest an influential metal band? Certainly as regards their leather image (though Blue Öyster Cult were the first ones to get their stage wear from NYC gay fetish shops), but musically? More so than AC/DC (I heard AC/DC in almost any hair metal band of the 80ies) or Iron Maiden? In the beginning, Priest's appeal lay for me in how thankfully un-Zep they sounded and in the Purplesque chugginess of their rhythms. They were a dumbed down Deep Purple (minus the gifted improvisations, everything in Priest was always meticulously worked out and presented as such live) "that had heard too many Black Sabbath riffs". :mrgreen:
But I guess you're right, Tom, there is more Priest in Metallica than there is Led Zeppelin (I also still hear quite a bit of Deep Purple in Metallica,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK9_kkc6dyo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APIY8x5gy7w
certainly more so than Zep, no wonder with Lars being such an overawed little Purple buff) and Priest were also godfathers of that whole speed metal thing with songs like Exciter, Rapid Fire, Screaming for Vengeance, Freewheel Burning and Painkiller. But to be fair: Metallica were hugely influential on modern metal too, that drum sound and the dominance of Hetfield's rhythm & riffs guitar left a real mark. I don't think that they do not belong in the RRHOF though I rarely hear any of their albums (I think I have them pretty much all with the exception of the first two).
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About (https://www.rockhall.com/about)
Mission (https://www.rockhall.com/mission)
The operative words are "rock & roll" -- repeatedly. Not all the other popular genres.
I don't care who they leave out. It's just amusing how many rockers they ignore while inducting artists that don't fit.
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May I give one of my crap measured and lawyerly statements? Hear me out in my defense of Cleveland:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAhJmbAgCgE
I'm happy that something like the RRHOF exists at all to commemorate and celebrate"rock and pop" music as a part of US/Western culture, irrespective of whether I have personal sympathy for each and every decision inducting an artist or a band or letting them wait in the purgatory of non-admission. And with most inductees I can understand why they are in there. I just sometimes scratch my head why some people are not yet in there. I understand that the list of possible inductees has in the past seen some political/woke wrangling on that there should be more women, more black artists, more non-US acts, more electronica etc., but that is fine with me as it just reflects a social discourse that goes on everywhere, the RRHOF doesn't operate in a vacuum.
I also don't feel that hard rock, heavy rock and heavy metal have been ignored. Let's see, the 'holy English heavy trinity' of the 70ies (Zep/Purple/Sabbath) is meanwhile in, the three major American heavy acts with decade-long relevance (Aerosmith/Kiss/Metallica) are in there. Heck, even AC/DC, that cerebral outpouring from Australia, is in there. The Alice Cooper Group is. Lynyrd Skynyrd (essentially a hard rock band with some Southern roots influence) is. Hard-rock oriented AOR acts like Journey and Bon Jovi are in there too (though I wonder why Foreigner, REO, Toto and Styx aren't, those bands once ruled American airwaves, had one hit after another and sold shitloads of records). That's not a bad representation, much as the exclusion of Grand Funk Railroad grates me (but they were never critics' darlings, let's face it). Judas Priest has had the chance for induction twice, they just didn't get the votes together, blame the JP fans then, not the RRHOF.
The one genre that probably has a right to complain is Prog. There are Genesis/Peter Gabriel, Pink Floyd, The Moody Blues and Yes, there is Rush, Frank Zappa too. Roxy Music if you consider their art rock a Prog sub-genre. But no Jethro Tull, no Emerson, Lake & Palmer, no Kansas, no Mike Oldfield, King Crimson/Robert Fripp, Procol Harum or Asia, no one from the B league Proggies such as Gentle Giant, Caravan, Camel, Van der Graaf Generator, Barclay James Harvest etc.
Let me ask you a question. All you guys so hung up/obsessed about the 'RR' in RRHOF, what do you think of Kraftwerk being inducted?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZCQn8TiMRQ
Not Blues or C&W influenced. No guitars, basses or real drums. No r'n'r image. Yet they are in there (in real life, not just in some "The Man In The High Castle" alternative universe scenario where Nazi Germany has accidentally won ze wär :mrgreen: ). Also with a huge impact on (hopefully) indisputable previous inductees such as David Bowie. Should they be in there, yes or no? Answers on a postcard please, why Kraftwerk should be rock'n'roll! :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv8_EZrNhpY
If I might add on a slightly nationalist note: No doubt, Rammstein and the Scorpions will follow one day too. Today Cleveland, tomorrow ze wörld!!! Or the other way around.
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I'm fine with Metallica being in there. They kind of led the charge of the next wave of American metal (NWOAHM?), with just enough commerciality to "cross over". I'm just annoyed with the order in which they induct people sometimes. It's like they suddenly realize "Oh crap, we better put so-and-so in there now!"
And yes to Kraftwerk.
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I'm with you, the RRHOF's sequencing is totally wanton. The only argument for it is that is sorta creates suspense for each year's candidates.
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I think it's great that Kraftwerk is in. I've always felt that influence should be one of the criteria. I don't have a strict "what is rock" definition. I'm fine with hip hop being represented.
Where I start getting irrationally offended, and have to remind myself that it DOESN'T MATTER, is when inarguably influential, popular, historically important groups get left out in favor of someone who came later and did less.
Last year I was miffed that the foo fighters got in ahead of both Priest and Iron Maiden. The entire metal family tree can be traced back through those bands. What can you trace back to the Foo Fighters? Anything? There's nothing wrong with them - they have some good songs, they play fine - they're just so ... Basic. A good basic rock band.
Respect should be given to pioneers, that's my feeling.
Oh, and Kate Bush should get in. But probably won't anytime soon because she never made that much impression in the US.
Fela Kuti didn't get in either.
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It's strange that people regard the RRHOF as an accreditation body or something. They know they will get endless free advertising from angry baby boomers if they induct rappers and ignore rock acts.
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The Rock and Roll of Fame doesn't really recognize many bands. Well, that door swings both ways. More bands do not recognize this joke of an organization, and rightfully so.
Todd La Torre of Queensryche.