The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: Lightyear on July 21, 2013, 12:30:46 PM
-
Off the coast of Britain
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/07/21/explorers-find-dozens-wwi-u-boats-off-united-kingdom-coast/
-
Dang!! There is so much that's yet to be found underwater. AMAZING that these went undiscovered for so many years.
-
Nothing on BBC yet...?
"Summer silly season" stuff...?
-
Kenny, let's organize a visit to Scapa Flow ;)
-
Nothing on BBC yet...?
"Summer silly season" stuff...?
There's other stuff dominating the BBC News channel at the moment. I'm already sick of it.
P
-
There's other stuff dominating the BBC News channel at the moment. I'm already sick of it.
P
Here (Seattle) too........
Do people really have so little to actually care about? ???
-
I think they should call it Kong. Wouldn't that be a thing?
-
I think they should call it Kong. Wouldn't that be a thing?
LOL!
That would be pretty damm funny...............
Not quite dry enough for Brit humor tho ;)
-
Kenny, let's organize a visit to Scapa Flow ;)
That's do-able ... Via the Scapa distillery...? a nice wee dram ... and I mean really nice, especially considering how young the distillery is ... :toast:
Oh yeah, and it's a boy ...
-
I bet they name him Radcliff....... :bored:
-
I vote for Buford T. Justis.
-
I vote for Shemp.
-
Why all in the same place? Did they sink their ships there following the armisitice in some ghastly ritual?
-
Why all in the same place? Did they sink their ships there following the armisitice in some ghastly ritual?
Ritual, yes. Ghastly, no. The defeated german Navy was proud - they did go head-to-head with the Royal Navy at Jutland in 1916. They did not feel defeated but as part of the Armistice were forced to sail to Scapa Flow to surrender their proud ships to the Royal Navy, ( They would have been scrapped for the steel or used as targets) their officers and crews in defiance conducted a mass scuttling rather than have their ships meet such fates........
The Kreigsmarine took a measure of revenge in WWII of course, Gunther Prien in U-47 slipped the nets and entered the anchorage and torpedoed the Royal Navy's battleshiip Royal Oak in a daring action, Prien was killed in action later in the war, and of course the Royal Navy lost it's century long domination of the oceans to the acsendant U.S. Navy.
-
Destruction of that stuff after armistice or surrender is just a bloody waste of assets, does no good to no one. Not to mention the poor crews.
All German victories against the Royal Navy came at an incredible cost in men and material and were at best fleeting (no pun intended), regularly we got our asses kicked. But it's true what you say about Scapa Flow and Prien: The operation was masterminded by Dönitz, then admiral of the U-Boats, later on of the whole German navy, also Hitler's successor in the last days of the Reich, who was a U-Boat commander in WW I where the same thing was tried but failed. Plans for a (renewed) submarine sneak attack on Scapa Flow went as far back as pre-war thirties, the German Navy dreaming and scheming.
The strategic effect was nil though: The Royal Oak sunk by Prien was a swimming WW I museum that wouldn't have seen action against Germany's new line of battleships and cruisers anyway (all of them of 30ies origin, anything else we had was scuttled in Scapa Flow following the Versailles Treaty). Again poor crew though.
I was in Scapa Flow/Scotland two years ago - in every church there is a memorial plaque for the casualities, but the Scots - good sports that they are - never fail to mention "sunk by Captain Günther Prien and his crew in U-Boat ...", more than grudging respect.
-
Well, navies are pretty easy post war targets, what happened at Scapa Flow was unique tho. The Ostfriesland which managed to survive several actions including Jutland missed the fun at Scapa only to be given to the U.S. Navy..................and used along with the Frankfurt as targets for Billy Mitchell in 1921.
-
Which impressed German guests very much - thus the Stuka idea was born!
Two or three German carriers with Stukas on board would have posed a greater threat to the Home Fleet than all the Bismarcks and Tirpitzes of this world. In that regard, the US Navy was lightyears ahead strategically.
-
My granddad's ship, SS Cambridge, was a WW1 War Reparations vessel (Vogtland; launched 1916) and I always considered it ironic that it was a German mine that sunk her in 1940 ... one of only two possible vessels that he served on that it could be possible for me to see now ... the other was sunk in WW1 by a German torpedo ... ;)
-
Which impressed German guests very much - thus the Stuka idea was born!
Two or three German carriers with Stukas on board would have posed a greater threat to the Home Fleet than all the Bismarcks and Tirpitzes of this world. In that regard, the US Navy was lightyears ahead strategically.
That sure would have got the Home Fleet out for a showdown, not that Royal Navy ever backed down from a fight.
I'd recall that it took Pearl Harbor to get the U.S. Navy to reluctantly embrace Carrier tactics (up until that point our doctrine in the Pacific was to confront the Japanese in a large surface engagament i.e. Jutland) and even after that we continued to build Batttleships..........
-
After the mightiest state-of-the-art battleships on earth at the time - the Yamato and the Bismarck - both sunk due to damage from puny airplanes, building battleships in the aftermath is tantamount to embezzling state defense funds.
-
My granddad's ship, SS Cambridge, was a WW1 War Reparations vessel (Vogtland; launched 1916) and I always considered it ironic that it was a German mine that sunk her in 1940 ... one of only two possible vessels that he served on that it could be possible for me to see now ... the other was sunk in WW1 by a German torpedo ... ;)
:-\
I'm relieved we let some genetic bearers of your family survive so you are there today!
-
...and even after that we continued to build Batttleships..........
Bureaucracies do that - stay on the course they were on before the event. Kind of like making everyone take their shoes off years after one idiot tried to put a bomb in his?
Carriers are still a critical factor in the balance of power...that's pretty good staying power in today's world.
-
After the mightiest state-of-the-art battleships on earth at the time - the Yamato and the Bismarck - both sunk due to damage from puny airplanes, building battleships in the aftermath is tantamount to embezzling state defense funds.
I think every navy that owned a battleship had at least one sunk by aircraft - Hard lesson. Pearl Harbor, Toulon, Taranto and many battles in both the Atlantic and Pacific.
-
My granddad's ship, SS Cambridge, was a WW1 War Reparations vessel (Vogtland; launched 1916) and I always considered it ironic that it was a German mine that sunk her in 1940 ... one of only two possible vessels that he served on that it could be possible for me to see now ... the other was sunk in WW1 by a German torpedo ... ;)
My Dad's ship the USS Saratoga was sadly destroyed after the war at Bikini Atoll.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2uot9gn.jpg)
-
The Sara was a beautiful ship, it should have been saved.
-
The odd reality, Robert, is that you can see your dad's ship, and performing a greater function than you could imagine...
(http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/1x8746390/diver_at_anchor_hawse_hole_at_bow_of_uss_saratoga_marshall_islands_bikini_atoll_micronesia_paci_T20-846767.jpg)
Just google USS Saratoga wreck and be amazed at some of the dive images... she now is a haven for sea-life and has become a "coral reef" ...
-
My late father worked for the MOD here in the UK; his job was primarily classed as floatation (effectively getting any vehicle to float, tanks, Stalwarts, APCs), but he dived, tested over vehicles/tech (and nearly died a few times) and later specialised in mine-clearing, spending time in the Falklands. He also headed up several MOD trials through the 60s-80s for Volvo/Haaglunds 'snow cat' vehicles. As a point of trivia here, he also dived on the Mary Rose as part of Alan Bax's team in 1965/66 and then as REME up until the wreck was raised.
I don't really know much about what he actually did day to day...everything was classified, but as a kid he'd take me into work with him now and again and I had access to some awesome stuff. I go on vehicle sea trials with him as well. It was really great fun.
Anyhow, a couple of years ago my cousin, who also works in the MOD just said to me, 'You haven't got a clue about your dad's work, have you?' I mean, what could I say but just shrug and say, 'No.'
At this point, he just smiled and said, 'Do you know about the German submarine in the Solent? He's a f*cking legend.'
Want to hear more?
-
Please continue!
-
+1
I'm relieved we let some genetic bearers of your family survive so you are there today!
Alles ist in der Liebe und im Krieg fair ... ;)
-
Yes! Tell us more! :popcorn:
-
Abalooootely!
-
OK, next bit.
So my cousin says my dad is a legend...
My fathers work was primary based at a small military establishment at Longcross, Chobham in Surrey, England. It was primarily an R&D establishment with a test track located nearby. The establishment has been long decommissioned and is now Longcross Studios. The test track is used for filming etc. There were other locations he worked out of (all England), Bideford in Devon, Thetford in Norfolk, Salisbury Plain - there may have been others...I don't know - but more often than not he was at Horsea Island in Portsmouth, Hampshire. As a kid I went down there with him a few times...it only used to be accessible at low tide, but now it abuts the Port Solent Leisure complex. Hopefully, this link will take you to a view of the island (I remember the slipway leading into the lake when I was a kid...sitting next my dad while he drove DUKWs in while laughing like a crazy guy):
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/preview#!q=horsea+island&data=!1m4!1m3!1d6178!2d-1.0999212!3d50.8352516!2m1!1e3!4m10!1m9!4m8!1m3!1d5542188!2d-4.064941!3d53.800651!3m2!1i1920!2i882!4f13.1&fid=7 (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/preview#!q=horsea+island&data=!1m4!1m3!1d6178!2d-1.0999212!3d50.8352516!2m1!1e3!4m10!1m9!4m8!1m3!1d5542188!2d-4.064941!3d53.800651!3m2!1i1920!2i882!4f13.1&fid=7)
I guess due to the nature of his work it was just an unfortunate collision of his skill/experience/stupidity that he was called upon to dive on what my cousin briefly described as a 'sunken U-Boat filled with anything that would explode', that had gone down in the Solent area during WW2. The submarine was [apparently] on a suicide mission of some sort to take out the Royal Navy docks/ships during the war...it had sunk and (I'll keep saying allegedly here) was lost/forgotten about somehow (no idea why), but then found again and was considered a major threat to shipping. As far as I was able to ascertain, there was no one right minded enough to say yes to dive on it except for my dad, but for some reason, my dad said he'd do it. And he did it several times, solo dives, documenting, making safe what he could. My cousin said this gave him this kind of mystical/legendary status.
That's it. That's all I know. My cousin said beyond this it's all classified, they want to keep amateur divers off the wreck. I've checked the web as far as a civilian could, but nada. The thing is, I have no reason to disbelieve what my cousin said. I know my dad did enough crazy things with his work and I know he would have just said, 'Yeah, f*ck it, I'll do it.' I'm sorry there's no Bruce Willis 'Kabooom' ending. He was just doing his job and something no one else seemingly had the guts or nerve to do.
As a father I saw a softer side...he loved gardening, fishing, getting a decent tan and coming to see me play. I miss him every day.
P
-
That's a much better story than if the U-boat DID blow up.
-
I'm fascinated by the lack of info on it... by now it should be available for FOI availability... you should try and post it on the WWII site I haunt and see if anyone knows of it...
PM if you need advice...